Rick2you2

Thank you.

Never make assumptions. On a different but related note, every once in a while, a publicly followed case goes to trial in which it sounds like someone is guilty as hell, but the jury comes back with not guilty. Then, the public screams that someone got away with "this or that." In truth, the ones who hear the actual evidence, and the jury charges, are ones who do know best. They may not even come to the right decision, but they certainly will know better about the matter than the public. Honestly, the whole subject makes me uncomfortable, but as much as I wanted to, I couldn't just let this sit. I hope you appreciate why.

I have a few pieces which are too big to fit into portfolios of any regular size I can find. I keep them framed, but honestly, I would prefer to put them away for safekeeping. Any suggestions?

Because of what I do for a living (I'm a lawyer, which I had publicly mentioned), I really can't respond. I don't want what I might privately think to be taken in an inappropriate manner.

I'm not sure I would do it again because I have 2 other pages of the artist (who I really like a lot). If I didn't, I would have. None of this changes the fact that a fair number of comments about its business behavior are appalling.

By the way, this would confirm something else I had mentioned, namely, that younger buyers are buying stuff to which they can better relate. That would suggest a portion of the market is at or close to its peak of supercharged appreciation in pricing.

Could you give me a bit more information on this? A dealer had said the bottom end was dropping, too, but how low can something go when it's already down below $100? I'd like to get a better sense of the dynamic here.

Every one of you is presumably tellling the truth. I was relaying my own experience. And by the way, the reason I started this thread was because a lot of their other prices are unfathomably high to me. This is what I bought: It was on eBay originally for $1,500. I thought that was too high, and that it should have been in the $1,000-$1,200 range (tops). I think I bought it for about $1,350 or $1,400. Was it too much? Yes. Was it way too much? Eh. I've since acquired some other Phantom Stranger/Shawn McManus pieces, so, I'm not sure I would do it again. But still and all, I'm satisfied. And by the way, it looks better in the original.

I would treat the word “tier” as a simplification of a sliding scale. So at the bottom, stuff won’t go below $50 because it isn’t worth the time to sell except in bulk. Prices will be softer at $1,000 to 900, than 900 to 800, and so forth. There is a psychological effect of paying $1000 instead of 900 or 10,000 instead of 9,999 which you can see in most retail stores, but otherwise, I don’t see hard tiers.

Aside from conversations, I only had one direct dealing with them and it was fine. A piece was listed on eBay, on the high side. I made an offer for a lesser amount, we negotiated, and I bought it for a little more than I think it was worth, but acceptable (maybe 10-15% high). It was shipped, the condition was what it looked like, and that’s it. The only thing I don’t like is that it is still listed on their website, but they aren’t the only ones to do that. So while their business model eludes me, I think there is a difference between a tough businessman and a flat out crook. From my limited experience, they deserve the benefit of the doubt (although, I would be cautious in the future).

Well, yes. It's the "hollowing out" effect I had mentioned in another post. When this market eventually stalls out, it's the middle which will sink first. I don't know about the top end, but I would put the bottom at less than $1,000. Ironically, I will spend more than that, but I don't call any of this a worthy investment-- so it doesn't matter.

I hear you.

That has to be a little harsh. In a few conversations, with one of them, he was very pleasant to talk to. And, I got the feeling they really do love this stuff on a personal level. So count those as good things. It's the business model I still don't understand (although, some of the comments here are pretty enlightening).

Not soon, but in a longer time span, yes. It will follow the trend of many collectible objects. People tend to collect the things they grew up with. Demand drives up prices. A lot of OA collectors are buying stuff which reminds them of their childhood. They include baby boomers and others with more discretionary income than when they were younger. Naturally, they drove up the prices on the stuff from the 1960's and 1970's. As they fade from the scene, or find other things they need to buy, there will be less demand and prices will stop moving up (Pricing tends to be sticky, so the price will often list high with no one buying until it's really out-of-whack or someone needs $$). Since the number of people buying comics has dropped, so will interest in OA. And while the newer stuff will continue to go up as the 1960's to 1970's stuff levels off, there is a lot more newer stuff and a lot of it was saved. Excess supply keeps prices down. Collectible markets tend to "hollow out." The big ticket items keep their big tickets, but the medium-priced stuff, of which there is a lot, tend to drop first. The stuff at the bottom is already cheap so it tends to hold for a while. Although, based on one dealer's off-hand comment, we may also be seeing some slippage there, too, for stuff not done by "hot" artists. I think we may have seen a levelling off of some OA, but for at least the next 5 years, things should still go up. In 20 years, things will definitely head down. It's the period in between which will be in flux. If you want to invest in collectibles, give this stuff a shot. I grabbed this listing off of eBay. When I saw the asking price, I almost choked. Bandai Original TamaGotchi White & Red Virtual 1996 - 1997 New VERY RARE!!!!! Very rare, the manufacture made very few of those with this color, this is the real thing not like others that are fake. $4,000.00 From Israel $15.00 shipping Brand: Bandai By the way, let me add that collectibles, in general, are a dangerous market. Today it's sneakers, tomorrow it's TamaGotchi's.

Honestly, not everyone. The extra $1,000 wouldn't be worth the aggravation to me; and it isn't because I couldn't use an extra $1,000. What you are describing is work. I do enough work; sometimes, 7 days a week if that's what is needed. This is play time. It's digging up the pleasant memories of my childhood; a time when money didn't matter too much as long as I had my weekly allowance. What frightens me a little is the number of people here who really believe the stuff they buy now is going to be a great investment. All they have to do is watch some revamped episodes of Antiques Roadshow, where an old episode of 15 years ago shows current pricing. I'd say about 1/3 are lower or equal, and some of the ones which are up are not up a lot. The ugly part is that "A+" material. A+ antique material has often dropped in price because it doesn't reflect what people lived with when growing up. A typical example is "brown furniture", antiques from the 17th-19th century. Their actual prices have typically dropped, and the prices which have held don't move well. I think you will see the same thing with that A+ OA. Prior to the 1960's, there was an awful lot of 6 panel illustration. Even in the 1960's and 1970's, a lot of it was pretty rigid even if the artist was excellent at his craft. Here is a Mac Raboy page from Captain Marvel Jr. from the web. I think it's excellent, but is it to modern tastes? I think not. And if it is actually out there, I doubt it will appreciate:

To me, it's not just a "pain point" so much as a "value point." This past year, I threw some money in some stocks and realized an annual rate of return of well over 25%. Admittedly, a very good year, but there it is. With OA, I figure I would lose money unless I held it for at least several years because buying it means you outbid everyone else at auction, or, you are selling to a dealer. And since I hold no hope that the bulk of this stuff will hold its value in 20 years, I wouldn't put "pain money" into any of it. That's just a wasted asset. So, there is no way I would throw in 30K for this stuff, not even 20K. Every once in a while, I have "inflicted" my hobby on my gf. Her basic response is that it is all just "black and white" and she doesn't see any differences (She's seen my color pieces and isn't too impressed with them, either). And, she feels the same about other comic art subjects, too (except the Amy Reeder sketch I had done of her which she loves). This is the sort of view which is why the most optimistic among fans ought to be tempered. Much like Chinese calligraphy, it isn't going to have widespread appeal. I think there really is a dividing line at $1,000, but I will go up to $2,000 if I want something. Were I to find a piece I really, really wanted, and I felt like burning some money, maybe up to $10K.

Thanks for the tip. Let me casually mention that the new HP photocopier in my office not only has an 11" x 17" flatbed, but it permits me to copy directly to a flash drive (at dpi settings up to 600). It will also print off a flash drive onto ledger paper. So, if some of you have office photocopiers, you may want to explore that as an even cheaper and more space-efficient option.

Hmmm... I simply wanted to say that it was not my intention to create a dumping ground on the DB's.

Will there still be one in NJ? When?

I would be hard-pressed to believe a dealer is doing that, or at least intentionally doing that. I've seen things saying they were similar to something else, or a recreation, but actually?

Well, they still buy things. I had seen a mediocre Miignola piece listed for $600 about 6 months ago which they are now selling. And, they do have new stock which shows up. So they must be injecting new capital. As a generic business model, I still don't get some of the pricing out there. Let's say someone buys a piece for $100 and is able to sell it for $150 in 3 months. That's a rate of return of 200%. Allowing for down time (say, only 3 transactions per year instead of 4), and overhead, would still produce a darn good net profit. It's the reverse of what some people do on the stock market. They buy a stock, it goes down, and even if it has little chance of going back up (Sears stock, for example), people stick with it. Just rambling on an Winter's day.

He was busy in English class. For a barbarian, he certainly knows how to toss around the vocabulary.

I tend to agree, but it's not listed for that and is no longer on eBay. So what I'm "hearing" is that their basic stock is, in many cases, quite old, and they apparently have no reason to turn it over quickly?

But I'm not bidding on the thing--really. I think the page could definitely hit $2,500 to $3,000, however. I'm a particular fan of clever panel design, and this one has a terrific splash.

I wasn't planning on bidding for it, but I would more willingly pay 2K (or more) for it than the other one.