Rick2you2

I figured that, but I should think they would find most potential buyers are more likely to get pissed off. I know I would be.

Just to throw another comparative log on the fire as to market conditions vs. DB's. This page is currently on Heritage Auctions for $262.50, including buyer's premium. It is by Ross Andru and Rick Hoberg, and I expect it will go up. It's also a pretty nice page with the Spectre and Batman, and some real artistic flair to it. This Now, compare it to this on eBay, also pencilled by Ross Andru, which they had listed but no one bought at $1,975 (down from around $2,100, actually). It is not nearly as nice, and a flying half-splash Spectre will draw a lot more fans than an unconscious Phantom Stranger. It is also the second year the Phantom Stranger page has been listed with no takers.

It's not ethically challenged, in my view. It's just not comprehensible. I should think that someone would want to flip their inventory over every year, what with new stuff always becoming available. If you can pick up a 50% rate of return in one year, you're doing a killing. To let it sit for years on end just doesn't sound like a good business practice.

One thing I did notice is that the piece I bought almost a year ago is still listed by them as something to inquire about. That, too, is annoying.

Just briefly, here is the Lanham Act's relevant language from Wikipedia. See how it compares: 15 U.S.C. § 1125 - False designations of origin, false descriptions, and dilution forbidden (a) Civil action (1) Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which— (A) is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive as to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person, or (B) in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities, shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.

You aren't being pedantic. I get it. Mike's argument would be that it is his unique creation of the design of a Batman image perched on a high chimney which is his intellectual property, and further, that DC acquiesced to public use of its Batman trademark for commission work as a long-standing practice. Moreover, DC is attempting to "pass off" the Mignola design as authorized by the artist (a different sort of Lanham Act violation). But I would agree with you it isn't a clear case. Anyway, I'd rather leave this sort of stuff to the office.

I was hoping someone could explain a business model to me. More than a few people, besides myself, have noticed that the prices Coollines wants for its OA can be really high, sometimes by multiples of the market. I did buy something from Coolines once, which was at an "okay" price, but a lot of the others they have....I'll pass. Now everyone certainly has the right to try and get whatever they can for what the own. I understand that. But the raw volume of art they apparently have suggests a huge inventory. And if their pricing is generally really high, how does that business model work? Commission only? Ultra high mark-up to cover a small number of sales? Or maybe they are really collectors and don't care? I typed in Coollines in the search box here, and one person theorized they are preying on the new and uneducated. I find that hard to believe. It's a lot easier for the new and uneducated to find CAF and look at published prices than to make inquiry of what something costs. Again, this is not a knock on the Donnellys. When I met one at a show, he was a perfectly nice, likable guy, and he seemed to know how his pricing was viewed. I just can't fathom the business model and I'm intellectually curious about it.

Bingo!

I think DC may get into trouble if it push this too far. But first, let me get to the earlier point: even if there were copyright (or trademark) violations, there will still be a generally enforceable contract. It's just that people could owe damages for violating copyright and trademark rights. That's a different subject. My own knowledge of intellectual property is limited, but I would suggest that the artist would win. Here is a website discussing defenses of acquiescence, laches and waiver in the context of trademark defenses to offending later marks. Presumably, some form of these defenses would also apply for copyright violations. http://privacyandip.blogspot.com/2011/10/common-questions-when-should-i-enforce.html

I don't agree with that. General copyright violations are violations of civil law, not criminal law. The voiding of a contract based on public policy has to be based on violations of fundamental public policy not just a legal violation. An example would be a contract to murder someone. The misuse of a copyright is more like a breach of contract, not robbery. The artist and buyer are using something without paying royalties. And even then, there are exceptions permitting use of copyright material without permission like "fair use." With that said, DC could theoretically sue the artist and the buyer of a Batman commission for copyright infringement. And since it is a registered copyright, they might actually be liable for DC's legal fees as well as some token damages. But, there would be a good defense of waiver in light of the regular practices of artists to do commissions, along with the knowledge of DC, along with the astonishing bad will that would cause in the community which nets DC so much. So, that's my 2 cents.

Honestly, I'm one of those guys who writes the contracts for construction (not kitchens, however). So, I think I can say something here which is helpful. Contracts set out the specifics intended for a transaction, but more broadly, do so as an overlay on how the industry practices. So, in construction, the specifics are the plans and specifications for work performance, plus the price. A generality--industry practice-- is that bills are ordinarily payable in 30 days (unless the contract says otherwise). Contrast that with OA where bills are generally payable at the time the work is finished or handed over. You have to figure out where artists and buyers have common ground for their understandings . Then, you can write up the specifics.

Now there's someone I have been trying to get a piece from for over two years. It's like he abandoned his website (until Sal took it over).

They really are a gas. I have most of them. They are like a crossbreed between a 1960's sitcom and a low-powered Spectre story with a little from the original 1940's movie "Here Comes Mr. Jordan" thrown in (the movie was later remade by Warren Beatty in "Heaven can Wait").

Oh, yea. I actually sent someone an email to let him know one of his sold pieces was still up and suggested he take it down. The dam'n thing is still up.

There's a surprise. (sarcasm intended).

I think you are being too hard on yourself. When you were getting those Jonah Hex commissions, weren't you enjoying yourself? If you were, and you could afford it, then have some fun. When you were buying those commissions, would a big cover have brought you that much enjoyment? If not, the heck with it. You can't take it with you. And once it becomes work--"I gotta have that next commission"--then it's more like an addiction. By all means, put away the old toys and pick up something new. While I collect to one character, I will sometimes stray. I bought an old Grandinetti wash of the Spectre because I thought it captured a sentiment I hadn't seen before. The Spectre seemed to be sitting and contemplating all the deaths he had caused over the years. The image, which no one else seems to like, was something I posted on the thread involving bargain basement art finds (or whatever its called). I also bought a page of art this past year which was published by the ACG Comics Group called Adventures Into the Unknown and involving a hero called Nemesis. The art isn't too good (Chic Stone), but the dialog is an absolute scream and the plot line is 1960's nutty. I guess my bottom line is you should do whatever "floats your boat." Just have some fun with it.

Well, if we're headed in that direction, Clayface has got to be the biggest stud on the planet. As to Doc Ock, not every woman is into mechanical sex toys. Aunt May seems a little conservative, but hey, you never know (Marissa Tomei, on the other hand...).

First, I don't think you should buy anything with the expectation that it is an investment. Look at the art as something you like, or not, and see if you are comfortable with the price. Second, I don't think you should assume you will even get "market value" if you sell it. If you were to sell to a dealer, the dealer won't pay anything close (just some relatively low percentage). If you sell at auction, keep in mind this is a relatively small market. That makes actual sales prices subject to a lot of variation--particularly if you aren't trying to move a "classic." On one day, 2 bidders may "go at it." On another day, nope. So who is to say what the market price really is? More broadly, I don't think those modern pieces will have much of a long term value horizon. They are not examples of actual published art, which reduces buyer interest. And, what's hot now is not likely to be hot later. Going even further, and this comment is not well received, I don't think OA in general has a long term value horizon (say, 20 years). But that's for another day. So, no, I wouldn't spend the money.

Remember the artist Will Elder and have you seen what he did when Mad was a comic? Have Wonder Woman about to put a banana in her mouth, and then have all the male Justice League members watching with their tongues hanging out--in Will Elder style.

I do buy them when I find them and if they are good; but there are a lot less Phantom Stranger pages than Dr. Strange pages, and the character isn't particularly active when he is shown. As for the money, I keep this hobby on a low financial burn. I don't think this stuff has a long term investment horizon (say 20 years), at least not for the more common things.

I've never wanted a sex scene; and I'm moving away from simple figures. Instead, I'm beginning to see a commission as the opportunity to have a 1 panel story--a slice of life, so to speak.

Only if she's on top--and has his arms pinned down.

By setting a particular target for collecting, I get to compare different styles of the same basic subject. I also liked the character when I was young, so why not? And after all, for many of us, isn't OA collecting just a way to revisit our younger selves' enjoyment of comics when the joy of reading variations of older stories has fizzed out? Not everything, mind you, but too much. An unfocused collection just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter what the focus is (artist, characters, scenes with graveyards, whatever), but that hones in on the quality and variety of different artistic efforts.

I hope none of this sounds testy. It isn't meant to be. I guess the more important question to me is whether you think my suggested steps on getting a good commission make sense to you? I'm still waiting for the first response on that. Of course I know artists and writers BS for business. I've also had artists and writers tell me the same thing. I'm an adult, and I project myself as one. I'm also pretty good at sensing how honest people are. It comes with the experience. While I certainly like OA, I'm not a fanboy. I ask critical (or make complementary) comments about their work. For example, what struck me with Higgins' panel work was that he could do a basic 6 panel, stuff 75 words or more into one of them, and still make the thing look interesting. In my view that's hard, and I think he appreciated my serious comment. And if I saw a page I thought could have been better, I'm not shy about telling an artist about why I think that way, either. I've also gotten grudging "yea, well's" when I was specific about my reasons. And by the way, the artists sometimes have good reasons for why it looks that way. Regarding Colleen, I wasn't looking for a new best friend. I was looking for someone who I felt would like the assignment. I only asked her if she enjoyed it after she did it and after I paid her. She was actually a little startled someone bothered to ask. People who ask legitimate artists to draw absurd looking nudes or sex scenes, well, my sympathy is limited. By they way, I enjoy these ongoing chats. Feel free to keep 'em coming.

I appreciate the best wishes, but to be candid, it sounds like I've been really lucky. I've never been burned on a commission, and when I've been less than thrilled, I generally chalk it up to my over-expectations or the artist's right to make artistic choices. Now admittedly, it's not a huge number, but I just wanted to let you know what I do. First, I never just "grab" an artist. Preferably, I am already familiar with the artist's work or I check the convention list of who is going to be there and study up on the choices. If I don't, I carefully go through the art on their table to see if it catches me. I did that with John Higgins, colorist on The Killing Joke, and was really impressed by his panel work. That sold me. And, he was great. By the way, I don't order blind commissions on the internet. Second, I make sure the artist is a good fit for what I have in mind. For example, if an artist is particularly good at facial expressions, I would make sure the commission I have in mind will be a close-up or head shot so the artist's best skills are employed there. I also try to "feel them out" to see if they seem to think it's a good fit. This includes familiarity with the character, but, it's not necessary. Third, I always bring reference tools for them. Since I only get commissions with the Phantom Stranger, I haul around reprint copies of his books. Fourth, I offer to pay more than their going rate, and generally, by suggesting the artist add extra background. I know time is money, but the time they spend now is what I will be looking at forever. An extra $100-$200 spread over 10 years won't matter in the least. Fifth, I will buy them art supplies. A surprising number of artists don't come well prepared for sketches or commissions, with drawing stock in particular being in short supply. There is always someone selling that stuff, so I get what I can for them. Sixth, I make it a point to talk to them in some detail. I need to feel comfortable with them and let them be comfortable with what I want. For Colleen Doran's female Phantom Stranger, I brought some other artists' samples I found on the internet, and made it very clear to her I wanted her interpretation of the character. By the way, she enjoyed that assignment and I really liked the result. I also got to know her as a human being through her work, and that's also part of the fun. Seventh, I try to give the artist a sense of competition. I have digital images of a number of Phantom Stranger works I carry with me, including some heavy hitters. I point out that their new work will be displayed along-side this other stuff, and I want their best work to compare it with (which is absolutely true). A few artists don't care, but most of them do. Eighth, is timing. If they are going to finish it at the convention, I offer to pay them up front, sometimes half, sometimes, in full. Only once has an artist ever said yes to prepaid full payment (although, I will still press the naysayers to take at least part of it). Just the offer has impressed some of them. I don't want the artist to think they run the risk of getting stuck, and I want them to concentrate on the commission. Ninth, for later completed commissions, I ask how long they need and when it can be expected. The ones I have dealt with have been very professional, but if one were running a little late, I would follow up with an email or call. Since I am already paying top dollar and have made my interest clear, I get well treated. Tenth, when the commission is done, I always thank them. I did screw up once, when I thought I had mailed a thank you note but found it later. I still feel badly about that. Sorry out there (if you're reading this). Hope this helps.