RockMyAmadeus

Useless (?) trivia dept.: So Marvel reprinted GI Joe #3, #4 and #5, but didn't note it anywhere on the books. #3 and #5 have obvious tells, but the only way to tell if you have a second print #4 is to either compare the font in the price box of the original and the reprint...or look at the back cover ads: That's the back cover to the first print of GI Joe #4... ...and the second is the Jedi Arena pictured above!

And, of course, who could forget this classic, and several like it:

Then there's this weirdo:

Here's a rare Frogger one from a magazine:

There were several for Frogger: And even Frogger II!

There are a TON of great video game back covers from this era. Just off the top of my head, I would say that well over 50% of the back covers for comics published from 1982-ish to 1996 were for video games. They replaced the basektball, baseball, Slim Jim, and even movie back cover ads of the 70s. Here's a classic that appeared on the back cover of Mar, 1983 books, including ASM #238 and New Mutants #1:

TOS #58 and #59 are such favorite books of mine, I wish I'd been able to buy many multiples when they were listed on the OPG for $7 in the late 80s. Sigh. I think TOS #58 (and #59!) is desperately, desperately underrated.

Hi Redbeard! Glad to have you here! Bruce's show has moved to a place a little closer to downtown (but not much closer) called "The Reef." Hasn't been at the Shrine since...I want to say 2015? Maybe 2016? I miss the old venue.

Such an incongruous lot of books, too. There's no reason that book couldn't have been a Pep #21 or #23...or even a Pep at all. Not that #23 is not without it's charms, too, but the single greatest MLJ key ever published...? And one of the rarest mega keys of the GA...? Amidst some very nice books, but none even approaching that caliber? SO random!

Holy MOLEY! It was legit! A 5.0 Pep #22!!

Atlas Horror. Keen.

I was going to say "because he's covered in metal, and metal absorbs heat faster than other materials."

Hi there....welcome to the CGC boards, the finest comic book message boards on the internet. The best way to learn how to grade these days is to obtain slabbed copies of books in various grades, and examine them. That will give you CGC's idea about how comic books are graded. It's preferable to get the same book in different grades, but if that can't be done easily, other books will work. There's no substitute for experience, so that's what you need to do. As to whether your books are worth grading or not, look them up on eBay and see what graded copies (if any) have sold for recently. Keep in mind that grading comics IS NOT CHEAP, and the vast, vast majority of all comics ever published aren't worth the cost to grade. Unfortunately, the books you list here would be worth grading, but only in very high grades...and most books, even new off the shelf, start out at 9.4/9.6 condition, and go down from there. Grading isn't a magic wand; especially with modern books published from 1990-up, you need to have a very high grade for most books (9.6+) for them to be worth the cost to grade. I would suggest the pre-screen, which has a 25 book minimum, wherein you can send books in, and if they don't grade at or above a certain threshold you set, they won't be graded, and you're only charged a rejection fee, if anything. PS. Venom appears in ASM #298, and, theoretically, Web of Spiderman #18 and #24.

That'll teach me to like your posts that I like! (shakey first smiley) But think of all the benefits you got: cool, esoteric information about the origins of comic fandom that no one cares about, that you can whip out at parties and impress your friends with...AND, you got some bonus nap time! Win. Win.

I imagine it was just to indicate the second printing. They'd done color changes with the Killing Joke reprints starting the year before...a novel idea....so they'd had a precedent.

Who's RAM...? Hey, I spoilered at least one of my posts. Maybe I'll go back and spoiler them all, so no one feels obligated to read them. Besides...there's a TON of interesting information in my posts, that deals, at least in an ancillary way, with the subject.

This market, and the way it behaves, is entirely unprecedented. The comic market...from its tiny foundations in the early 60s to today...has never seen this type of market before. I've often remarked on the fact that, while the "traditional keys" were always priced high, at least the surrounding issues weren't. Even the "traditional keys" were relatively cheap in lower grade. That's no longer the case. Now, you have secondary books like Detective Comics #168....hardly a "mega key" in times past....is now, in every grade, unobtainable by the average collector, becoming a four and five figure book...in some cases, the entire annual salary of an entry-level employee. And it's hardly alone. And Valiantman's example, showing that the best "investment" in the last few years would have been a bunch of 4.0 Hulk #181s signals the end of the cheap lower grade "mega key." Where is all this money coming from? No longer are we in a "John Jay Pittman" market, where buyers of fairly modest means, middle to upper middle class, steadily put together a collection, piece by piece, that they then keep intact for the rest of their lives. Now we're in the "Jay Parrino" market, where people with lots of money buy books at a rapid pace, flip them at a rapid pace, and throw dizzying amounts of money into the market. This took a long time in coins...essentially, from the 30s and 40s until about the late 80s...and its no fluke that that coincided with the advent of slabbing. There have been crashes here and there, but for the most part, now even "common", average, non-key coins can set you back five figures. The first "million dollar coin" wasn't sold until 1996. Since then, however, hundreds of coins have sold for over a million dollars, with hundreds more...if not thousands...in 6 figures. What's more is that these ultra valuable coins aren't going to collectors...they're being bought by dealers. Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics and her partner, John Morelan, just bought back the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty Nickel for $4.56 (which was the aforementioned first $1,000,000+ coin sold in 1996.) They already owned it previously. And that's not the only case of dealers selling to dealers. The line between "collector" and "dealer" has become quite fuzzy as well. Why is this happening? Lots of reasons; more people in "emerging markets" (aka "most of the world") with more money than they've had. The "usual suspects" of investors awash in dough, wanting to park their cash into tangible assets. In other words...the comics market...and many collectibles markets...is being flooded with cash by people who aren't *really* collectors. And, of course, the advent of slabbing has made this much, much more possible. There are millionaires and perhaps billionaires who are in the comics market, the likes of whom would never have considered buying these things 20 years ago. But, here they are, and so if you want it, you're competing with a lot of people who are almost certainly far wealthier than you. And they're not interested in building collections. They're interested in returns on their investment. That's a tremendous psychological difference. As long as this money holds up, regardless of why...then the gravy will keep flowing, in all directions. Books that were in the dollar bin 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, a year ago, can now sell for hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in very high grade (Ms. Marvel #1 and Black Panther #1 in 9.8, for example.) Eternals #1 goes from being a $5-$10 book a year ago to a $750+ book in 9.8, and several hundred dollars for several grades below that. Hulk #181 becomes a four figure book in ANY grade. A 1988 comic....ASM #300...routinely sells for lower four figures in 9.8. When that book was new, there was NOTHING that was 30 years old at the time selling for those amounts, except at the very highest grades (Showcase #4, AF #15, FF #1), and very few people had access to those books. Even accounting for inflation and the almost inconceivable differences in how the comic collector market existed between 1956 and 1988, the rate of increase is staggering....and that's comparing the bluest of the blue chip Silver Age keys, with perhaps 10% of their initial distribution surviving, with the 300th issue of Amazing Spiderman, with perhaps 90-95% of its initial distribution surviving. It boggles the mind. This is unprecedented, uncharted water. I guess we'll see where it takes us.

This thread is awesome. Dealing with collectors has always been about dealing with addicts. Almost all dealers understand this and exploit it. I've spent, in my last ten years as a buyer, maybe $100,000 (very rough estimate.) 50% of that has been with Ed Robertson (robocard here on the boards), because he's not running a museum and the more I buy, the more he's willing to discount. It's really just as simple as that. The other 50% has been on eBay. All the other dealers? I don't even waste my time. I tried to make a deal with that Canadian dealer, I guess George is his name, during setup at C2E2....he wasted a good hour of my time that I spent looking, and then had the nerve to complain that he had to "pull books out" that I then decided I wasn't going to buy. Sorry, buddy, but I get to look at the books AND reject them if I don't like them, WITHOUT you whining at me about having to do your job. I was at the Phx show in May, and I found another seller...would not budge a cent on his sticker prices. I found a single book...a Cap Annual #8 that I think I can press to a 9.8....for $40. That was it. And if it doesn't get 9.8, it's a loss. All the rest? Wouldn't move a millimeter. I realize that it's a seller's market, and sellers should enjoy it while it lasts, and take full advantage of it as it does. So, I choose not to waste my time OR your time bothering to ask. I know that the market will cycle again, and things will loosen up, and my money will be more than welcome, as it was in the late 90s/00s.

I'll take "Questions that are never going to be answered for $1,000, Alex!" ....like.......? What does that success tell someone...? Be specific.

That sounds like a perfect excuse to justify sloppy inattention to detail. Are you suggesting that this board is beneath your diligent effort...? And "doing this from memory" doesn't justify the blatant misrepresentation of things I said that you've been doing throughout the discussion. What's your excuse for that...? Oh, on the contrary. I think the education has decidedly gone in your direction today, IF...and that's a gigantic if...you are willing to have an open mind. Just as soon as you feel comfortable in retracting your actual assertions that there was a "large and developed comic fandom by 1964" ...or "(b)y (look at me, even paying attention to that tiny detail!) 1966 there were way more than 1,000 comic collectors attending comic conventions." ...or that there were "500 attendees" at the first SDCC. ...or that that was the number of attendees at the 1-day Golden State Comic Minicon, in March of 1970, rather than the later 3-day Golden State Comic Con in August. ...or that I claimed, on multiple occasions no less, that the San Francisco Comic Book Company was the actual first comic book store in the US. ...or that I asserted that there were only 1,000 comic collectors in 1970, rather than the estimate, guess that it actually was.

Until the idea of a "large and developed comic fandom" is defined, it can mean anything to suit the argument, since it has no meaning itself. Things that refute that idea: The FIRST comic convention wasn't until 1964. Sci Fi cons, on the other hand, had been conducted since the mid to late 30s. The FIRST CLAIMED comics specialty store didn't open until 1968. The FIRST company-wide letters of comment were published in the early 60s. The FIRST continuing fanzines were published starting in the early 60s. The FIRST comic book price guide, the Argosy, was published in 1965. The FIRST comic book associations and clubs didn't exist until the early 60s. All these FIRSTS speak not to a "large and developed comics fandom", but to a young and developing fandom.

That it was growing. Quit stealing my lines.

Who is "us"? You a spokesman of some people? I don't give much credence to "recollections of old collectors", since people misremember, forget, get fuzzy...I'd much rather have actual hard numbers, contemporaneous data or, barring that, consistent (rather than conflicting) information from multiple sources. It didn't take much searching to find that information from Paul Lopes...why couldn't you find it...? That would have certainly bolstered your argument quite a bit.

How many comic conventions took place in 1966? From what I can gather, there were three: July 23–24: New York Comicon (Park Sheraton Hotel, New York City) — produced by John Benson[26] — guests include Jack Kirby, Jim Steranko, Otto Binder, Len Brown, Larry Ivie, Jack Binder, Roy Thomas, Gil Kane, Archie Goodwin, bhob Stewart, Klaus Nordling, Sal Trapani, Rocke Mastroserio and Ted White; keynote speech by Kirby, a discussion about censorship between Don Thompson and Comics Code Authority acting administrator Leonard Darvin, a panel about the Golden Age of Comics, and one on the "so-called 'Forgotten ’50s,' particularly EC Comics. Bhob Stewart, on a panel with Archie Goodwin and Ted White, predicts that there will soon be "underground comics" just as there are already "underground films."[27] July 23–24: Southwestern Con (Hotel Southland, Dallas, Texas) — c. 70 attendees; organized by Larry Herndon; official guest is Academy of Comic-Book Fans and Collectors executive secretary/"Academy Con" promoter Dave Kaler[28] August 12–14: Academy Con II (City Squire Inn, New York City)[26] — produced by Dave Kaler; official guests include Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Bill Everett, Carmine Infantino, Julius Schwartz, and Bill Finger[26][29] Yes, copied from Wikipedia. If there were more, I can't find any mentions of them. If we extrapolate....and I know this is dangerous, but there's little else to go on....we know in 1964, the NY Comicon had 56 attendees. Theoretically, it grew each year, so maybe we can assume 100 by 1966? I have GOT to ask Roy Thomas in NY in Oct if I get a chance. The Texas one said about 70...and I don't have any idea about the Academy Con, which was put on by Dave Kaler, Exec Sec of the Jerry Bails' founded Academy of Comic Book Fans and Collectors (ACBFC.) In any event, if the Texas one had about 70, and the two NY cons had about 100...that's a total of 270 for the year...not "much more than 1,000." Now, interestingly, according to Paul Lopes, in "Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book", he says the ACBFC had 2,000 members in 1965. That suspiciously sounds like a rounded off number...or could be exaggerated...especially given that a mere two years earlier, in 1963, Lopes also says the membership was only 90. That's a tremendous swell in just two years, AND given the fact that the Academy went defunct by 1968. But...the nice thing about these numbers is that they aren't vague, undefined terms like "large and developed", but are hard numbers. Hard numbers we can work with! I disagree, for the reasons stated above, but I'm certainly willing to consider evidence. I'm glad I found that info from Lopes. It's nice to have actual numbers to work with.

I suspect those who listed they own them made a simple mistake, and meant the regular issues. Also, comic book realm erroneously lists them as "Whitman reprint"...they're not reprints. Who knows, it's certainly possible they do exist...but many people have been diligently searching for them for a very long time now, and they haven't turned up.