RockMyAmadeus

I wish I could say this was tin-hat conspiracy...but, sadly, it's not. Far too much of the market thinks of the slab as inviolate, and that's a real tragedy, not to mention, a situation that would be custom made for fraud and corruption.

That's not accurate. There is an implication of completeness, both in the type of document...in this case, one that says "World", the PGX version of CGC's "Universal", rather than "Qualified"...as well as the title of the item itself. If I sell you a copy of Batman #442, with one of the pages missing, am I selling you a Batman #442? Or an incomplete Batman #442? Obviously, the book is no longer as it was manufactured, and therefore cannot be called a "Batman #442" without qualification...hence, the "Qualified" grade. Depends. If the seller knew about the mold, you can. If the seller should have known there was mold, you probably can. "Well, there you go! The seller can simply claim they didn't know about the missing pages, and they're off the hook!" Not quite. Mold is not something missing that should be there, and is implied to be there. Mold is, rather, an (unwelcome) addition. Its presence is not foundational to the integrity of the house, as pages are to a comic. In theory, mold doesn't "come with the house", as all its pages do with a comic. In this case, the missing pages, assumed to be there, created a false impression as to the value of the book, which value unjustly enriched the seller (known or not.) Granted, a seller can't be held liable for what they don't know, but once it's found out...then they can, since they directly benefited from that erroneous evaluation.

That erroneous perception, by the way, is the entire reason why the market has become convinced that it's wise to pay $2,000 for a 9.8, and only $500 for a 9.6...even for the exact same copy of the exact same book, in the exact same condition, graded at different times. That makes that erroneous perception very, very dangerous, and why so many people clamor and claw to make sure they get the best possible grades, all the time. It's "value" that rests on nothing but a mindset, which makes it very precarious indeed.

I've explained, in detail, why the analogy doesn't work, including details such as the "mystery factor" and the "resealable factor", which you chose not to address. We weren't discussing an empty "yet sealed" pack, so I agree, that's irrelevant to the discussion. Slabs, in and of themselves, have no value. Try and sell a slab that once contained an Action Comics #1, and see what you get for it. You are operating under the same erroneous perception that much of the slabbed market operates under: that it is the SLAB that makes the comic "valuable." I understand why you would think that, because it's tempting and easy to do so. Nevertheless, it is not an accurate way of regarding a slabbed book. What makes the package valuable is the comic. Remove that comic from the slab, and that slab has no value. Put that comic BACK into a slab, and...provided nothing has changed otherwise...the value of that comic is the same as it was in the previous slab. The value, then, that the slab "adds" is INTANGIBLE. The value is for the OPINION that comes with the slab, not the slab itself. But that opinion doesn't materially change the book. It only convinces buyers to be willing to pay more for it. The book is what it is, in the condition that it is. That's where all the REAL, ACTUAL value lies. All CGC does is confirm that "yes, that book is Comic Book Z #13, and we think it's in this condition." That's it. They confirm what already is. They don't actually add anything to the item. And if they add nothing to it, then no, the slab does not have value in and of itself. And you are incorrect that a deslabbed books is only worth what an equivalent "raw" book is worth. I have bought, and sold, books that were cracked out of slabs, but which had their labels present. These were, once again, raw books, but with the added feature of having been graded by CGC at one point (depending on whether or not I trust the provenance presented.) Those books did not revert back to their "original raw" value...on the contrary, they sold for a slight discount off of a slabbed copy in the same grade. Why? Because the value is in the COMIC, not the slab, and the acceptance of an OPINION, which is INTANGIBLE, and does not necessarily become void merely because that book is no longer in a slab. And, after all, in this case...the PGX label didn't vanish into thin air, did it...?

Let's entertain that idea for a second: PGX is 100% to blame. So, is PGX...or any grading company....therefore responsible for the difference in value, because they made a mistake (let's assume it was a mistake, and not just gross negligence)...? If the book had two pages missing when it was subbed to PGX...and it probably did...who is the one who benefitted from the difference in value for that mistake? The submitter/seller? Or PGX? The submitter, obviously. So what court on earth would hold an appraiser responsible for the difference in value, based on an appraising mistake of its condition...? Keep in mind...these appraisals are NOT monetary...they are strictly condition appraisals. PGX and other grading companies are not assigning a FMV for which they can then be held liable. They are only assigning an opinion as to the condition of the item. How the market then values those items is not their concern. In fact, CGC used to have some verbiage expressly disclaiming market value in their terms, but I can't find it. Basically, it said how the market valued the item wasn't up to them, and they couldn't be held responsible for any of that. "But, because of that mistake, the item has the appearance of being more valuable than it actually is!" Granted. But the reality is, that value isn't real, because the book was never actually in the condition the label claimed, because of human error. "What do you mean, that value isn't real? Somebody...maybe several somebodies...paid it! That MAKES it real!" No. That value was based on an erroneous perception which, while unknown, was ALWAYS erroneous. So you have to look at who benefited from the mistake. PGX? No, they were just paid their standard grading fee. The person who benefited from this error...and the person who has to give back that benefit when the error is discovered...is the submitter/seller. And that is what the law calls "unjust enrichment": benefitting at the expense of another. CGC has taken the position....and perhaps set a bad precedent...of taking responsibility for these mistakes on their part when they have occurred, but nevertheless, the one who received the unjust enrichment...whether they were aware of it or not...is ultimately the party who is responsible for paying it back. Thankfully, at least with CGC, it's so rare, it's of little concern. And I imagine CGC is very diligent about that for precisely that reason.

This analogy has already been discussed. Card packs are printed, inserted, and sealed by the manufacturer. A sealed pack has value in being sealed, precisely because of the "mystery factor." You don't know what you're going to get. Once a pack has been opened, there is no mystery, and the value of that seal is gone forever. Comic books are not slabbed by the printer. There is not supposed to be a "mystery factor" to slabs. You're supposed to know exactly what you're going to get. Slabs, by themselves, have no value. If a seal is opened, you can put the comic back into a new seal, and be returned exactly to where you were before you opened it up the first time, because it's not the seal that matters...it's the book itself. The analogy doesn't work.

I agree with you completely, especially where it deals with the chain of custody argument. The item was represented as being complete. I acknowledge that the proper thing to do, and the expedient thing to do, can be very, very far apart.

Except that it was not that kind of gamble, and not relevant in this particular situation. I wish that could be understood. I've been thinking about this situation, and I think it most closely relates to this: You're at a a slot machine. At a normal slot machine, you have a chance of winning, and a chance of losing. You know that going in. However, this particular slot machine, a maintenance person took out all the jackpot cherries (I don't know how that would work; suspend disbelief with me for the sake of the argument.) You don't know that the cherries were taken out. You think the cherries are all there, and you have a legitimate chance...however slim...of hitting them. The casino doesn't realize the cherries were taken out. Nobody knows...but you have ZERO chance of winning on this particular machine. That's similar to the case here. Had the book come back 4.0 Universal...well, that's the gamble the buyer took, and I suspect there would be no problem. It was a 4.5, now it's a 4.0. It's now "worth less" than what the buyer paid for, but hey, them's the breaks. It could have been a 5.0. Could have been a 6.0 with a press. Who knows? In either scenario, the buyer neither would have a claim on the seller, nor would he owe the seller anything. The difference here is those missing pages, which is not part of that "gamble" that everyone is talking about, because it's a very serious problem that is unknown, and unknowable by the buyer UNTIL he/she receives it and has it checked out. "Well, that's the risk you take with PGX!"...except, again, that's an "as is" type of transaction that is not enforceable, especially since the buyer sent the item to another appraiser. He fulfilled his obligation to mitigate his risk, as any small claims court judge will tell you. Like I said...our little corner of the world looks at slabs weird, in a way that the justice system almost certainly would not. In the real world, the buyer received the book, already appraised, and decided to send it to his own appraiser within a very reasonable amount of time. He doesn't lose

I know. What happened to me....?

The sooner "CBCS" and anything connected to it is swept clean of the fools in any position of authority there, or is, itself, put out of business, the better. What a colossal joke they turned out to be.

Not surprising. That group is moderated by low intelligence, condescending nanny fascists. Just reading the "TOS" is enough to make a rational man vomit. "Now, now...not too much fanboying!" and even worse: "Offending people will get you in trouble too." Yes, you will be "moderated" if you say something that offends someone else...doesn't matter why. Groups with rules like that should, themselves, be disbanded. You don't want to be offended? Lock yourself in your house and never come out. It's shameful and embarrassing, and sadly, far too common, and a harbinger of far worse things. It's absolutely reprehensible.

Why would anyone have a B/S/T group that's closed to the public...? A bit counterproductive.

Why, I oughta.... Cliff Claven didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Is that what you're suggesting......? Hmmmm....? That's it. You're on...The List.

Ah, I see...you can't leave neg fb before 7 days for powersellers. Apparently, everyone else is fair game. I wonder when they changed THAT policy...? Silly eBay.

Resubbed by who? The buyer (OP) or the seller? Did you mean seller? The answer, of course, is no, and the implication you're making is invalid. Grading is subjective. Pages missing is not. If the book is graded by CGC, is complete, and "2 grades lower" (do you mean grade levels? 2 actual grades is a lot!), then you say to the OP (buyer) "awww...sorry about that. That's the risk you take, since grading is subjective. You could always resub it to PGX and hope for that grade bump back!" because grading is subjective. Pages missing is not.

As thun said above, the buyer didn't buy a slab from PGX. Theoretically, nobody actually buys slabs from PGX, although we know in practice, that isn't precisely true. In any event, your argument doesn't fly. The comic inside of the slab is what it is, regardless of the company doing the "grading." If I buy a Ford Focus from "Fast Eddie", and immediately send it to a Ford dealership to have it checked out (which is similar to what this buyer did), and they discover that the car is worse than "Fast Eddie" represented it to be...."Fast Eddie" doesn't get to wash his hands of the deal and say "shoulda known better than to deal with me, suckah!" That's not how it works. Now, "Fast Eddie" can sell a car "as is", and then it's entirely on the buyer...BUT, you can't sell anything "as is" on the internet, because the buyer doesn't have the ability to inspect the item prior to delivery. "As is" is not a magic incantation that gives the seller the absolute freedom to sell anything they want, in any condition they want, described any way they want, denying the buyer the right to inspect AND reject for non-conformity. And you certainly can't sell "as is" on eBay; their policies now implicitly prevent that. This is ESPECIALLY true when the item is represented...as this X-Men #1 was...as not having the defects that it actually had. We in the graded comics community have a funny way of looking at slabs that the rest of the world would (rightly) scoff at. I'm not a lawyer...but I imagine any judge looking at this would say "You sold a comic book that was appraised to be complete. The buyer, in a reasonable amount of time, took the comic to another appraiser, and discovered it was not complete. And you expect to keep your money...how?"...and then would laugh at the idea that the seller "wasn't getting back what he sold" if you tried to say "that's not what I sent them!" and included the slab....aka "the appraisal"...as an intrinsic part of the goods. Since it can be clearly demonstrated that slabs...especially PGX slabs....have ZERO value in and of themselves, no judge on earth is going to enforce such a requirement. In the real world, this looks like a pretty open and shut case for the buyer, provided the facts are as stated. Besides, I don't want to see you bare anything. I imagine you're quite the pasty fellow.

I hate that word, "picker"...it sounds like you're picking fruit...or your nose....

This isn't a "I disagree with the grade" situation. If that were the case, you'd be perfectly correct. Except, morally, and perhaps legally, the seller IS truly the responsible party, even if that transaction happened years and years ago. That sellers should have a policy to fix the situation shouldn't even be a question; but you're mistaken if you think such a policy means that "sellers would be better off only selling raw books." This issue exists whether sellers take responsibility or not. Thankfully, however, at least where CGC is concerned, it happens so rarely that it's not going to topple the whole slab industry were sellers to take responsibility for the items they sell on the very, very rare chance that CGC misses something like this. Whether you touched the book in the slab or not is irrelevant; when you accept it, you assume some measure....whatever that measure is, as teeny tiny as it is...of the risk that CGC made a mistake, and that you, as the buyer, or consignee, have "right of recourse" with YOUR seller/consignor. The seller....you...is not only the first stop for the buyer...it's the only stop for them. Of course, none of this happens without document, document, document, and I would not bother for a SECOND with any sort of partial refund scenario as you describe. As far as the accounting goes....this isn't rocket science we're talking about, here. Just follow the paper trail if it comes up. You already have an extensive database. "Good luck getting money back from the consignor"? That's when you OUT the consignor as someone who took money and ran, and didn't do the right thing, along with, obviously, not doing further business with them until they make it right by you. That's the proper way to do it...whether it's the EXPEDIENT way to do it, I'll grant you, is a different matter altogether.

The SELLER never sent what was described....a complete copy of X-Men #1...so ipso facto, the buyer can't return it, either. When you sell a comic, it is IMPLIED that it is complete, unless otherwise stated. This is, again, the fallacy of treating a slab as an inviolate package. It's not. It's just a fancy appraisal; nothing more. No. Removing a book from a slab doesn't change the book in the slightest (barring damage. Gotta make with the caveats around here!)

Well, what's holding you up..? Chop chop, get to it! Can you rotate that 90 degrees, for some variety...?

Just because something is done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. You say sellers would be vulnerable to all sorts of shenanigans. I disagree completely. It's why you document, document, document. Incomplete documentation? No go. The "transactional chain" ends with the person who was unjustly enriched by selling an item with an undisclosed (and probably unknown) problem. Whether people are willing to follow that chain is up to them, and as I said to Storms, it might not be the wisest option, but it is the correct one. As for the rest, I disagree completely. There's no valid reason why it would "put the big auction houses out of business." Why would it? CGC isn't going to collapse. We're talking about a situation that is EXCESSIVELY RARE, as it relates to CGC. There's not going to be a mass rejection of slabs. That's hyperbole. And the EXTREMELY RARE times it does happen, they should be prepared for and accommodate. On the very, very rare chance that such a thing is discovered with a CGC slab, provided it's documented, there's no reason why the seller can't make it right. After all...they got more money than they should have, even if they were totally unaware of it. Even if they didn't know it, that problem still existed. I'll ask the question again: if I, or anyone, sell a $25,000 copy of a comic that turns out to have a missing centerfold, and therefore only worth $5,000 (or whatever amount), what moral, ethical, and/or legal argument would hold them responsible for that difference in value, when they neither sold the book themselves, nor received any of that sale price? What judge on earth would hold them accountable for anything beyond their grading fee? And it's why PGX slabs should all be cracked open upon purchase.

Well, what's holding you up..? Chop chop, get to it!

Not if it's not advertising. That refers to advertising, not reading matter. No, we've gone over this in the past. Have Blowie search for it.

And while we're at it, please get rid of the new boxes, and bring back the old, double wall boxes. Raise the price to whatever needs to cover it. These boxes are causing books and slabs to be damaged, and you can't use those boxes to ship back to you. Not being able to ship back to you = fewer subs.