RockMyAmadeus

Let's clarify something, so everyone's on the same page: This entire thread, no one (that I have seen) has said anything along the lines of "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules." The discussion has never, at any time, been dismissive of the excitement of Liefeld's work, especially to younger people who first saw it in the late 80's/early 90's. It WAS exciting. It WAS different. It WAS cool. And no one has said anything to take away from that. If some of the participants in this discussion were actual kids, and cynical adults were telling them that liking (insert current cool thing here) was dumb, and they should be ashamed for liking it, that would be one thing. But that's not the case (though, I suspect that in many of these discussions, that's precisely who is being addressed: the child in the mind, whose memories are offended.) Poseidon Adventure (1972) is a terrible, awful, terrible movie. But to my 8 year old self, it was one of the greatest movies I ever saw on Saturday afternoon TV. I can separate what my adult self knows about the reality from the cherished memories of my 8 year old self, and say "yeah, man, that movie was an absolute disaster...and not the good kind. But MAN, I enjoyed the hell out of it as a kid!"...and neither is offended nor dismissed. Anyone can like any artwork for any reason they want, and not have to defend it to others. "I enjoy it because I enjoy it" needs no explanation. But when we start analyzing it, that's when we have to face reality and accept the work for whatever....good, bad, or indifferent....it is.

And I think everyone here understands that, not only because it makes sense, but because we've all done it. I would never defend Jim Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock (his first two runs) as text book examples of great comic book WRITING, even though for ME it holds up well out of nostalgia. For someone checking it out for the first time in 2014, it probably seems to be full of holes, and not exactly coherent at all times in it's direction and a bit fragmented in it's overall structure. It is. Starlin was tripping his bolls off when he did a lot of that stuff, and I could never defend it as great comic book writing. I can say it was awesome to me, and always will be. It looks cool. Even the art... though I will always love his art during that period as much as anything I will ever love in this hobby, I know it has it's flaws. As a personal preference, I liked Starlin's art better when it wasn't as polished and he was tripping on acid. That's the best defense I can give. To try and defend it all as text book examples of how to do mainstream comics, no... that's not how you do it. And Starlin is a guy that's pretty well respected in the business and been around for 40 years. Putting Liefeld's 'mistakes' in the same category as Kirby, Mignola, Lee, McFarlane... is just silly. Those guys all put in the work to learn fundamentals of sequential art storytelling, so that when they made whatever left turn into their own style they did, it was firmly grounded in the basics to at least some degree. Liefeld has been lazy, unpolished and fundamentally wrong in his work almost since day one. And it's done nothing but get worse. Remembering it as cool, if that's how someone remembers it, is something anyone can understand that loves comics. Remembering it as professionally done quality sequential storytelling art on par with Kirby, Mignola, etc.... well, that's just looking for an argument. Especially since he's considered one of the biggest d-bags in the industry. The Poseidon Adventure (1972) is the greatest film ever made. Reality is impervious to childhood memories.

Pfffft. I get no love. "Pouch-People" is an instant classic. He was talking about our comics not our posts-I was makin a funny. 'Pouch-People' is still the Ahhhh.....yes, I see!

Thanks. No one's ever complimented me on my posts before To be fair...he's also defended people in the probation thread who didn't deserve it. Who, Harvey, Kav, or FeralRabbit?

Message 7674520 & 7674571 Nighty night! Technically, he had two posts between the two you point out. So he really didn't post the same comment twice in a row. Shhhhhh!

Pfffft. I get no love. "Pouch-People" is an instant classic.

Message 7674520 & 7674571 Nighty night! Are you SURE...? I dunno...I think you're seeing things.

You have made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on. Right back atcha! You have made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on. Do you know how to make an argument without simply repeating what others have said? Are you not aware that your post here is nothing more than a glorified "I know you are, but what am I?" I was actually mocking the fact that you posted the exact same comment twice in a row. I did...? ....are you sure?

As the lone voice in a sea of crazy people, maybe it has gone to my head a little...sorry. I think you mean "lone sane voice"....

You have made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on. Right back atcha! You have made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on. Do you know how to make an argument without simply repeating what others have said? Are you not aware that your post here is nothing more than a glorified "I know you are, but what am I?"

Do you even realize you're making blanket statements based on your own opinion? What Liefeld knows and does not know we have no clue on. Assumptions maybe, but not knowledge. All we can see is what he chooses to put on paper. Ok, I confess my weakness....I couldn't let this delightful gem pass....I just can't. Did you know I'm the world's greatest brain surgeon, rocket scientist, and have developed and proven a Unified Field Theory? Oh, sure, I haven't done anything to prove that...but you don't know what's going on in my mind.

You have made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on.

Adams is a perfect example of your double standard:) Adams' early work and mistakes can be excused because his later work is better. Liefeld's early work and mistakes cannot be excused because his later work was worse. What you cannot grasp...and is the foundation of this entire debate...is that Art Adams understands the basic principles of art. Rob Liefeld does not. Everything else...all your poses, and plots, and lamps....is just window dressing. There is no "double standard." For there to be a double standard, Liefeld would have to understand and apply the basic principles of art. He does not. And really....you really need to stop trying to put "words" in people's "mouths", and then arguing against those positions (hopefully, you've learned what a strawman argument is by now.) No one said that Art Adams doesn't have the problems you have stated he has. But that doesn't validate Liefeld. "Art Adams gets away with it, why not Liefeld?" is not a legitimate defense of Rob Liefeld's skill. It's what children do to deflect blame to their siblings. None of Liefeld's work can be excused. None of it. The best pieces you've shown...that you've put up as the BEST examples of Liefeld's work...are messes. You've made a valiant attempt, but you have no foundation to stand on.

Yeah, it's pretty funny. This is the source of the "lamp fetish" that RabidFerret (an appropriate moniker...?) drew from: Seized it with a death grip, he did...

I'm thinking he's sitting on a load of Liefeld OA I've posted 2 different pages I own, so yeah, I quite enjoy his OA. If anyone's selling I'm certainly buying:) Based on this thread, it sounds like anyone stuck with any would love to unload it. Just send me a PM:) Boom Yes! Boom Boom art is welcome! Like this super sexy piece! I know you'll all love it. Now THAT is the female form the way it's meant to be seen!! And how 'bout Quasimodo Domino? When did Cannonball turn into a 90 year old Asian woman...? And look at the page number at the top. Is it page 16? 17? 16 again? 32? Does it matter?

Yeah, it's pretty funny. This is the source of the "lamp fetish" that RabidFerret (an appropriate moniker...?) drew from: Seized it with a death grip, he did...

The definition of great inking is not simply that there is differing line weight. Look at Winsor McCay or Herge or the majority of strip artists. If they have more than 2 line weights I'd be amazed. And let me ask - have you ever inked? It's really not that easy. You can't go slow. You need to move fast to give it life. You really need to sling it to get the sweeping lines and energy. This art has that. His current stuff does not; its very flat. Compare the two and you should be able to see what I mean. You do make a point here with McCay, and even Mobius to an extent - but they are masters at using the same line quality but within different spacing to suggest depth and distance. I would not consider Liefeld's work to be in the same school of inking, and while he does get some sweeping lines in his work, his short strokes is what makes his style 'his'. His work is "chicken scratchy" like McFarlane's work - much of the fluidity that you talk about with inking is lost in that style, because you cut short the motion to make long, flowing lines. I won't place the entire blame of this style on Liefeld, but it's very prevalent in 90's artists. It was part of that hyper-detailed style that took off during that era. The only person who I think mastered this technique that comes to mind is Art Adams. And a good chunk of Art Adams' work goes quite overboard. His best period was about 1987-1989. After that, he got lazy.

I'm really not sure you understand the english language at all. Despite ucleben's gentle post, you seem quite bent on insulting your way out of this. Have at it, then.

Page 1, panel 1: (Boom Boom is sitting on the counter, despite being told numerous times by Cable that they prepare food there. Yuck! Rictor is practicing his fierce Ninja Warrior poses in front of Bart Simpson poster) Boom-Boom: "This counter is a little sticky, has someone been sitting on it...?" Rictor: "Be quiet, you're breaking my concentration!" Boom-Boom: "I need a sandwich." Rictor: "Shut UP, I said!" Panel 2: (Rictor has an epileptic seizure) Rictor: "I'm....having...a....sei...zure....." Panel 3: (Closeup of BB's face) BB "Um, ew. Gross. Don't shart yourself." Panel 4: (wide shot of Rictor and BB) Rictor: "Don't...just...stand...there...give...me....some...help" Panel 5: (BB grabs a pitcher on the counter) BB: "Here, maybe if I throw this water all over you, that will help."

Folks, understand that this is a real, honest intervention we have going on here, and like all interventions, the person in need is going to lash out, make angry accusations against others, and fight it for as long as they can...but in the end, they'll come around. We just need to press on.

That "everybody else cuts corners" is not a valid argument to defend or elevate Liefeld's lack of technical ability.

"Everybody was doing it" is not an excuse for poor technical output. Quality is quality is quality, regardless of what everyone else may, or may not, be doing at the time.

Looks pretty contradictory to me.

This is a straw man argument. No one who has commented here has done what you claimed. Calendar still stuck huh? Bummer. If you're going to continue to present fallacious arguments as your "support" for your position, it's rather pointless to get upset when others point them out.