RockMyAmadeus

Liefeld really annoyed me at WonderCon. I had him sign 4 copies of #98 and 3 of #87, which he charged me $20 EACH on (and don't think sigs always add value...on one of the #87s, I barely covered the cost of the sig and the SS slab against what a Universal #87 would have sold for), and he wouldn't even do ONE little head sketch for me...not ONE. Grrrrr. $140 for 10 seconds of work. Nuts.

You were probably one of the people Mel and I were gouging with NM 98 at $20 long before it became a mainstay at that price. We could always move NM 98s, but NM 87 was the cold dud for a long time. I did not understand it as I always considered Cable to be more important, but the market made the decision and I was happy to profit from it. (thumbs u NM #87 a cold dud...? When? On eBay, for as long as I can go back (1998), they were always $5-$10. I bought a boatload of them. It never, ever became a bona fide dollar book. #98 on the other hand, I bought in runs of, say, 95-100 for $10 shipped. :shrug:

No worries. Our recollections are different, which can be explained by the different markets we were in. I was happy to be buying and flipping them for multiples of my acquisition costs from when I first started selling. (thumbs u YOUR recollection is different. I'm going by contemporaneous documentation from the era. And you still didn't read before commenting. So there. (500club told me to be mean to you. How'm I doing?)

Interesting. So numbers only matter when they flow into your story the way you want to use them? That's an odd approach. MEASURE = Length, time, cost, efficiency METRIC = Key indicators measured over time to validate performance Collecting information more rapidly is just a greater inflow of data. How someone collects this data, converts it to useable information and then conveys the findings more effectively is the proof in the pudding. Trust me. This isn't fire down from the gods. It's business analytics. Listening to the flow of information is a good thing. How he did it better as a fact still has not been outlined here. Just a wall of words he was talking to a lot of people more frequently. Market surveys, when done effectively, early on assess who they are going to question and why as part of their data collection plan. Otherwise, you may get answers. Just not the right ones. Asking who they were going to vote for to determine the final results was a stroke of genius. How was he stratifying the data collection so he was ensuring this came from large, medium and small stores to build a regional, national and global market picture. Since he was in the job of information gathering, assessment and reporting for a fee, this would be key to the service he was charging for. Bosco...you're focusing on irrelevant minutiae. This isn't a discussion about metrics, focus groups, business analytics, or market surveys. Nor am I interested in such a discussion. Nor does my lack of interest mask some fear that I "have no answer" to your arguments. You're trying way too hard to get me to bite, with the usual provocative commentary, and I'm not going to do it. I'm waiting any minute for you to pull out the Wookie Defense. Dial it back a bit, huh? I'll talk about market dynamics in the comics industry all you want, but I will not get sidetracked into an irrelevant debate about whether or not Jon Warren improved the OPG system to the best it ever was, because it's not relevant to the discussion...if you need to see that as a surrender on my part, by all means, knock yourself out. I surrender!

Siege Perilous was the last dying gasp of Chris Claremont's coattails riding (yes I said it) X-Men career, and it was atrocious. He's very fortunate that Jim Lee came along and gave him a gracious ending to his run. Literally, Nothing from issue #228-269 makes any sense. I dare anyone to string a coherent plot from that run. Claremont had some wonderful plots...wonderful...but he was TERRIBLE at dialogue, and without a strong artist, he just rambles on and on, and goes nowhere. Plot elements introduced that are never resolved, plots that don't make sense, characters who behave differently one issue to another...ick. Among 226-269 were the three part Brood and three part Genosha stories that were pretty good. It was like the periods of lucidity often seen in early dementia.

When it comes to market trackers to advise business owners what they may want to consider charging for their wares, "comic books" being the product is just a side factor. It is about knowing your market, and not having a missed opportunity on your returns. Overstreet and GPA charge for these services too. They don't do this out of the kindness of wanting people to make a whole bunch of money while they watch. The word "metric" is merely the way snobs say "measurement." And NO, in 1989, no one was using "metrics" as a concept in the comics industry. And NO, in 1989, no one was using "focus groups" to find out what people really thought. They just asked them, like normal people. And NO, in 1989, no one was using market surveys to figure out if Jon Warren was doing a better job on OPG than had ever been done. All those things may have provided nice data, but the absence of those things does not therefore equal the absence of facts. So just very strong opinions and assumptions, but not really any hard facts Overstreet's market assessment approach at the time was the best it had ever been? It's okay. I can respect that. You think the frequency of publication is an opinion and assumption? Because I can SHOW YOU these publications actually exist, and were actually published, in the actual time frames being discussed. You think Jon Warren's openness to hearing from collectors around the world is opinion and assumption? When it's there, on the printed page, for all to see? It's just an opinion that he was open to outside information, thereby improving the data in the Updates and Big Book? (Here's a fact for you..."market surveys" are merely collections of what...? Right. People's opinions. ) You think market reports of what is selling, and what for, are opinions and assumptions? You think "X-Men is selling 47% better for me this time than it was last year" is an opinion and assumption? You think "I sold a VG copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 for $1,000" is an opinion and assumption? You have a very, very odd idea of what is a fact, and what is an opinion.

By September, 1990, New Mutants #87 was starting to be mentioned as a potential hot property, along with Cable and Liefeld being called out by name. Weren't you saying before these books weren't really getting attention until 1991? Come on, now, fess up. You don't read most of what I write, do you? That isn't even in the same solar system of what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread. A bypassing mention in a much larger article, in one single report, in a comic book price guide that had 14 of them is "called out by name"...? McFarlane was called out by name in nearly every single article. So was Spiderman. So was Ghost Rider. Jim Lee was called out by name in over half of them. Was it "starting to be mentioned as a potential hot property"? Yes. Emphasis on "starting" and "mentioned" and "potential." In Sept of 1990. Again, with only 5 issues after this (#96-100) remaining in the run. NOT a "$20 book." NOT "wildfire." NOT "speculators were buying New Mutants up by the armload as they came out." NOT "within a few months of release." These differences may seem subtle to some, but they are ultimately the shades that make the big picture so bright, colorful, and clear. Chuck Rozanski claims a lot of things. So we've finally migrated away from "wildfire" to merely "striking a nerve"? Well, at least that's progress. I'll have to disagree with that assessment as well, though. The book...9 months after being published...was a nice simmer on a back burner. And while print runs and sales were up...they were only up about 60% from the start of the run. Until issue #100, Liefeld couldn't even double sales on the title, a title that was already around Avengers West Coast numbers (in fact, when Liefeld began his run, Avengers West Coast was beating New Mutants fairly handily.) Which ultimately means that New Mutants #98 did not have a high print run, especially relative to the Spidermans, X-Mens, and X-Forces of the day. Hell, it didn't even beat X-Factor #63 that month . The End. "...weren't really getting attention before 1991"....honestly....

Siege Perilous was the last dying gasp of Chris Claremont's coattails riding (yes I said it) X-Men career, and it was atrocious. He's very fortunate that Jim Lee came along and gave him a gracious ending to his run. Literally, Nothing from issue #228-269 makes any sense. I dare anyone to string a coherent plot from that run. Claremont had some wonderful plots...wonderful...but he was TERRIBLE at dialogue, and without a strong artist, he just rambles on and on, and goes nowhere. Plot elements introduced that are never resolved, plots that don't make sense, characters who behave differently one issue to another...ick.

Bob Harras is not very competent. And that's about the best that I can say about him.

So if something is a fact, it has to have data to back it up. Right? Otherwise, you are just making a statement based on your personal opinion. 1) What metrics validate "just about as accurate as it ever could possibly be" when judging a market tracking source? 2) Where are such metrics being tracked to validate "factual accuracy"? 3) Were there focus groups or survey results from major store owners where the results proved Jon Warren's period was the most accurate for the techniques available at the time? It's important, as if you are stating what he wrote was the most up-to-date and accurate details for the time (if that is what you are implying), we need to validate the source. 1. Frequency. In 1982, when the Update debuted, it was meant to address the rapidly changing market of the day. The fact that the OPG came out once a year was fine (and that's the general "fine", not "every single collector thought it was wonderful, and no one ever complained about its publication rate" fine, for the spectators in the audience) for the 70's, but by 82, the need for a literal Update on prices was recognized and made a reality on a yearly basis (Big Book in the Spring, Update in the Fall.) And that sufficed for the next 7 years. In 1989, however, the market had changed enough that the Update began a bi-monthly schedule, with the Big Book released in the spring (April, I think), and then June, August, October, and December updates. A fifth update was added for February 1991 (#15), and, in response to Wizard, the Update became monthly by 1993 (ish.) Increased frequency alone meant that Overstreet was in a better position to react to and report on market conditions with more accuracy than ever before. 2. The addition of Jon Warren as editor in the 80's. Jon Warren did much of the heavy lifting for Overstreet in the late 80's/early 90's, and he did something that Overstreet really had no interest in doing: he encouraged correspondence from not only retailers, but collectors of all stripes, to correct, update, and compile data for the Updates. Quite a few long-standing glitches in the Update and Big Book were fixed during his tenure, and many of those glitches were brought to light (like the Amazing Spiderman #134 and #135 info by none other than Jason Ewert that I posted a while ago) by collectors around the world. Jon LISTENED to everyone, and as a result, the information got more accurate. 3. The Market Reports. Each update contained 10-15 market reports from individual retailers from around the country, and even frequently included retailers in the UK and Canada. Because these people were on the ground, doing the daily business of selling comics (and despite what I or any other internet pundits may say, the comics retailer is STILL the most reliable information on the day to day business of the comics industry than anyone else. If Richard Evans says "thus and such is a hot book, and it's selling for $XX, and here's why", I'll believe him over someone who only does conventions once a month, or even eBay sellers like myself, because he has the day to day interaction with collectors that no one else really has.) eBay sales may be touted as having replaced such market reports, but eBay sales are only raw data. They have no context, the buyers don't give any motive for why they paid what they paid, and there's no way to explain why this book sold for $50 last week, and $17 today....outside of theorizing, which is usually pointless. While it's never wise to rely on one source of information, having many sources of information gives a much clearer picture of what was actually happening, in many different places. As far as "metrics" and "focus groups"....you do realize we're talking about comic books, right...? :shrug: The data speaks for itself. No need for surveys or focus groups. Those three details combined to make the OPG the most responsive, most up to date publication it had ever been, and, since the Update isn't published any more, sadly no longer is, and hasn't been for a long time.

(Don't take my chastising too seriously, Kimik. I'm easily excited.)

One more time: I didn't say that. *I* speculated on it (as well as all the other New Mutants from #93-100.) I said it wasn't anywhere near the speculated issue that people think they remember it was. It was printed in, and sold, about the same number of copies as #96 and #99. We KNOW that it sold fewer copies than #95, while having about the same print run, because #95 sold out at the distribution level within a week (being the first X-Tinction Agenda book in the title), and was immediately reprinted. Sorry, I meant to say speculated in volume as with my original post. As I have stated several times, LCSs at the time were buying extra cases of the book to speculate on it due to the 1st appearances, NM 98 being an X-title, and it being cheap to do so back then. If you do not consider buying a couple of hundred of extra copies to be speculating in volume, then that is fine with me. Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING before replying, folks. This information is already mentioned by me in the first few posts of this thread. Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING YOU POST that people are replying to. I was saying that the book was not worthless for 18 years as you asserted (see your quote above) - it was a $5-$10 book locally when the first Deadpool mini came out and a $10-20 book when the Deadpool regular series came out. This is why I was actively buying them as often as they came up at $5 or less in the early to mid-90s - for as long as I have been selling at local shows (1997) and online (1999), it has been a $10+ book. Not quite worthless....... My apologies for using casual language. I forget how absolutely nit-picky everyone is around here when someone says something with which they don't agree...unless, of course, it's their own memories being discussed. Allow me to clarify: "The book was FUNCTIONALLY worthless for the 15 years between 1993-2008, and ESSENTIALLY worthless as it relates to Deadpool himself as the main character, from 1990-1993. It didn't pay off as "the first appearance of Deadpool" (aside from the already mentioned mini) for 18 years." Better...? REGARDLESS...the Deadpool mini was already mentioned, and you missed it. And NO, it did not "pop" in 1997 with the new series. It may have experienced the most casual of bumps, but not in ANY way worth mentioning.

I call total BS. No one knew who the "New Warriors" were, their title wasn't coming out for another 6 months, and Thor was a slow seller. And in 1989, still a couple of years before people were buying cases to "put away." 1200 copies of Thor #412...

While this is true, the flip side is usually ignored (and a huge reason why the vast majority of comics specialty stores have gone out of business): that is, the real cost in terms of lack of cashflow that could be better applied to merchandise that actually sells, plus overhead costs like storage and labor. This is why I can't really operate a successful store: I absolutely cannot handle the idea of selling at a loss to turnover product. This is vital the success of any business, and it's a very difficult thing to do for many in the collectibles fields. Say he has a case of Infinity Gauntlet #1s. Let's say he bought them at 50% off from Diamond (a typical discount.) Say a case of IG #1 is 250 copies. That's $125 that he's got tied up in merchandise that has sat, unmoved, for 22 years. That cash is locked away in product that hasn't sold. It is not working. It is sitting. When you factor in inflation, that $125 he paid in 1991 now has the purchasing power of about (roughly, here) $60. it will only buy $60 worth of goods/services that it would have bought $125 worth of in 1991. Add to that storage costs (cubic footage of a case times the cost per cubic foot of the space it occupies) and labor costs it takes to move it around, however much or little) and the value you had out of that case is lost. "But you can sell Infinity Gauntlet #1 for $10 these days!" Granted. But that $125 in locked up cash, instead of sitting and not even earning interest, could have been released back into the cashflow, and used to buy merchandise that sold, rinse, lather, repeat...and in that 22 years, that $125 in cashflow could have generated 10s of thousands of dollars in revenue...vs. the $1000 or so that you could get for a case today (because no one's paying $10 for all 250 copies.) And, that relies entirely in circumstance. If IG #1 didn't enjoy a brief surge in popularity, you've got even less. Turnover, turnover, turnover. CashFLOW. It's the lifeblood of all business. "But he made his money already, and that case was gravy!" Granted. But that case still represents $125 in actual 1991 cash, locked up, doing no work, losing value, and costing real money. If you're a collector, and LIKE having a case around? Awesome. If you're a speculator, and are hoping for the day it becomes hot? Awesome. If you're a store owner whose very business depends on turnover of merchandise? Super, super dumb. If your business is to sell funnybooks, you have no business not turning over merchandise as quickly as you possibly can, to purchase more merchandise that you can turn over as quickly as you possibly can. Which is why I don't own a store.

One more time: I didn't say that. *I* speculated on it (as well as all the other New Mutants from #93-100.) I said it wasn't anywhere near the speculated issue that people think they remember it was. It was printed in, and sold, about the same number of copies as #96 and #99. We KNOW that it sold fewer copies than #95, while having about the same print run, because #95 sold out at the distribution level within a week (being the first X-Tinction Agenda book in the title), and was immediately reprinted. Please, PLEASE read EVERYTHING before replying, folks. This information is already mentioned by me in the first few posts of this thread.

For those with interest in these statistical bits of minutiae: There's a reason I don't rely much on "what I remember is...", not from anyone, even myself. I keep an extensive research library because the most accurate information is always going to be from the people who were "in the trenches", buying and selling comic books every day, at the time these things happened. I grabbed an OPG Update #14, with market reports written in Sept (since Warren wrote his note in late Sept, I imagine the reports were all due by the 15th.) This was on the shelves about November of 1990, but it's the timing of the reports that really matters. Of the 14 market reports, written by a who's who of comics dealers nationwide and even England (Contarino, Smyth, Linkenbach, Townsend, Giroux, McAlpine), New Mutants #87 is mentioned one single time...by Greg Buls, who is the champion of pimping stuff he wants to be hot. Here's that context: "Current issues: Marvel is once again on the rampage. Ghost Rider continues to literally blow out, as does the new Spiderman book, and finally the Mutant titles. By the end of this year, Mutants will once again rule, led by X-Men and Cable and the rest of the New Mutants. With the arrival of Jim Lee on the X-Men, and Cable and Rob Liefeld on the New Mutants, there should be no stopping these titles. Recent books to watch out for include NM 86, 87, 93 and 94, and X-Men #248 (first Jim Lee X-Men) 256, 257, 258, 268, and 270. By the time this price guide hits the stands, the mutants should be thoroughly engulfed in the X-Tinction Agenda, which should sell phenomenally well and should begin the consolidation of the mutant titles. Of the above books, the two I believe have the most potential (emphasis added) are NM 87 (1st Cable) and X-Men 248. The only thing that should keep 248 from reaching Spiderman 298 status is the greater circulation of the X-Men title." That is the sole and only reference to New Mutants #87 in the entire report, from the middle of September, 1990. Not exactly "wildfire", 8-9 months after NM #87 came out. And look at the language that Buls (actually, probably Howard) uses...he has to qualify NM #87 as the 1st Cable, as if some folks might not know that. As well, the book is couched in with the other NM, and Jim Lee X-Men. New Mutants is mentioned in context with other titles as having "picked up sales." The only other mention of Cable is from that same Bill Townsend as a single line in a greater "back issue" report: "NEW MUTANTS: nearly all the interest in this title is centering on the issues after 85. Cable-mania." (This was the precise time period that Townsend bemoans, a little over a year later, for selling #87 for $5 each.) Speaking of Townsend, he lists a "Top 25 back issue sellers", in terms of X-Men (that is, they count the amount of X-Men back issues sold, and set that at 100%, and then if they sell 247 X-Men copies as back issues that period, and 25 Moon Knight copies, then Moon Knight would be listed as 10% of X-Men sales.) In that top 25, New Mutants is nowhere to be found. One mention of New Mutants #87 directly. Two mentions of "Cable." Two mentions of "Rob Liefeld." About 7-8 reports of New Mutants in the context of new books. Sept of 1990. Something to keep in mind: while this was written, X-Men #270, New Mutants #95, and X-Factor #60 were just showing up on the stands. ORDERS for New Mutants #97 (one issue before #98) would be going in to Diamond and Cap City during this exact same period (and, in fact, accounts for the up in orders for #97 by a substantial amount: #95 was a sellout at the distribution level within a week, and retailers had time to up their orders on this and the other parts {X-Men #272 and X-Factor #62}, but not on #96, which had been ordered the month before. By the time October rolled around, and orders for #98 were due, it sank right back down to #96 numbers.) If I can find my #15, I'll report what that says as well, So what WAS the big report among new and recent back issues? Spiderman. McFarlane. Ghost Rider. And McFarlane. And Ghost Rider. And Spiderman. One mention of New Mutants #87, and that among a handful of other "books to watch"... Quite a bit different from the Dec of 1991 Update I reported on earlier...

Totally agree. So why keep asking when was the exact time that New Mutants #87 was all of a sudden hot? I guess because I'm stupid, and don't know I'm directly contradicting myself.... orrrrrr.... Because that's not really what I said. There is a subtle point here that you're missing: while it is true that no one can point to a certain day, or even week or month, when New Mutants #87 became "the must have item", it IS possible to say "this copy of New Mutants #87 sold for $XX on this date." That is the precision that I am referring to, because it is the only precision that matters. If someone was willing to pay $20 for the book, especially in an era (1989-1991) when $20 was, give or take, the threshold between "yeah, that'd be cool to own" and "OMG OMG OMG, MUST HAVE MUST HAVE!!!!! " When Bill Townsend, owner of Electric City Comics, reports that he sold New Mutants #87 for $5 in late 1990...that's a real number, attached to a real timeframe. The point I'm making is a simple one: there was buzz on New Mutants. Those paying attention...myself, Caira, you....were speculating on it. I was doing it because I saw what had happened with McFarlane, and totally missed the boat (because I didn't start buying comics in earnest until early 1990.) Was it wildfire in 1990? No. That wouldn't happen until 1991. And that brings home my point: there was buzz, but it didn't translate into significant increases in print runs or sales on New Mutants as they were being published. All the print run info and SOOs and Cap City orders all bear this out. If everyone was convinced that New Mutants would be worth speculating on, the print runs and sell-throughs would have been substantially higher, in a substantially shorter time. But it only increased about 60-70% until issue #100. Lest anyone disbelieve me, that this can't happen that fast, go look back at the numbers for Adventures of Superman #496 to 498. Refresher: Cap City orders... #496 - 17,700 #497 - 25,000 #498 - 80,000 ...in two months, a near five-fold increase. This is just not true. Sorry. If you change it to "by early 1991, after #87 had been out for a year or so, it was a $20 book", I'm with you, but not within "only a few months." That's just not what happened. 1989-1991 had so many changes taking place in our hobby, it was overwhelming for a market guide to keep pace. I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there. In fact, Jon Warren, the editor of the Update at the time, did a better job of keeping track of things in this time period...when the Update went from once a year to every two months to every month...than at any other time during Overstreet's entire history, before or since. Every publication was slow to react...but the Update under Warren was just about as accurate as it ever could possibly be, especially in an era pre-internet. Frankly, it's astonishing looking back at the work he and his team did. Granted. Absolutely true. That is why the Update went bi-monthly in 1989. That's an easy question to answer: because Wizard filled a niche that Overstreet wouldn't: the pop-culture, TELL ME WHAT IS HOT TODAY, NOT WHAT WAS HOT YESTERDAY, AND HOW MUCH MONEY WILL I MAKE!!! niche. Wizard was the Update on steroids, and while they may have better reflected the reality of the UPWARD market...once prices WENT up, they *never, ever went down.* Harbinger #1 was listed as a $150 book in Wizard well, well after the crash had occurred. What was Wizard's response? Well, people buy if they think what they have is going up...but they don't if they see their treasured items going DOWN in price...so, instead of doing that in any meaningful manner, Wizard simply de-listed those titles completely. Problem solved. Out of sight, out of mind, and I can keep up the fantasy that the stuff I paid $100 for is still worth that. Wizard magazine was one glorious, slick, glossy, tricked-out, purple-pimp-feathered-hat-and-diamond-studded-cane monument to comics market greed, all in color for $3. The entire magazine was geared to one thing, and one thing only: how much money can I make on these comics I have? Front to back, start to finish. The difference between the Update and Wizard? The Update (before giving in to the inevitable) worked very hard to reflect what WAS...Wizard pushed what they wanted to BE. They both ultimately failed, but Wizard bears the lion's share of the blame. I disagree. Market reports from 1990-1991 tell a different story. One voice (Overstreet/Warren) doesn't say much...many voices, from many places, what they say, and more importantly, what they don't say...that's a lot more of the picture.

I have those CVMs, somewhere. Man, was that mag a wreck. Remember when Flash the TV series premiered in the fall of 1990? All of a sudden, Flash #1 (1987) was a $30 book!

Soon as NM #87 hit big my friends and I went and started buying up all the NM copies we could find starting with about NM #91. We had multiples of each. I, on the other hand, collected New Mutants avidly, looked forward to it every month... until I opened up my pull list bag and saw that cover for NM #86... I took it out, put it on the shelf, and cancelled my New Mutants pull. Financially, I regret that. Tastefully, it was a wise decision. This statement made me

Did you actually read those "mainstays" books in 1990 and 91? Utter garbage. They were only continuing through sheer momentum, not because they were good or anything. Marvel just didn't want to pull the plug on the different members of the Avengers solo books. Yeesh. Indeed, they were hideous.

"Crushing"...? Cap City order numbers: Thor #429 - 36,000 Daredevil #289 - 25,200 Captain America #382 - 28,800 Iron Man #265 - 31,800 New Mutants #98 - 55,200 "Crushing"...? Where's the crush? McFarlane Spiderman was crushing Marvel mainstays. New Mutants...? Not so much.

Of course it was hoarded. That's never been the question. The question is to what degree were they hoarded, and why. A case is 150-300 books (probably 300 for New Mutants #98.) A long box of bagged/boarded books is about 250. That's really not that much for a store to have as back stock. For a store owner to still have cases of certain books doesn't mean much, because hundreds of stores routinely bought books by the case in that time period. And if they STILL have a case, 23 years after the book first came out, they prove the point: the book was a dud for most of its life, and only the most ardent speculator stuck it out for the 18 years or so that it took to finally pay off! How is that not just luck by this point, rather than effective speculation? The book was worthless for 18 years! First appearances were speculated on? Mmm...I dunno, no one bought cases of Thor #412 and put them away. No one has cases of New Warriors #1 still hanging around. Neither Deadpool, Domino, nor Gideon made much of an impact on the comics world when they were available for ordering. What were the potentially hot issues, #1 issues, and first appearances that were speculated on that actually turned out to be winners? Ghost Rider #1 took retailers by surprise. It wasn't speculated on during ordering. Spiderman #1 took no one by surprise. It WAS speculated on during ordering. GR #1 was worth $25 by summer. Spiderman #1...? Eh. Not so much. Superman #50 caught everyone with their pants down. So did Batman #457, and Robin #1. No one speculated on them when ordering. NM #98 has been far too valuable, for far too long, for the light to not be shone on hoards and mini-hoards, and sold. Your examples are almost certainly the huge exceptions to the rule by now. I doubt there are more than a couple dozen people worldwide who have more than 25 copies of this book at this point.

Too many printed & squirreled away in hopes of making a million off of it later for it to have any real value. -slym Yeah I thought that about NM 98 too. As RMA has pointed out in his 50 point thesis, this was not the case with NM 98, which was no more hoarded/speculated than any other second tier Marvel title. Hence we can have Iron Man 282 being worth something as well. Please do not invent statements out of thin air, and then attribute them to me. I said nothing even remotely like that. Thank you. How is that not in substance what you said? (And with which I agree) Should I say third tier title? I would have figured third tier would be under 100k. I never said it was "no more hoarded/speculated than any other second tier Marvel title", because that is not even remotely true (and which I have already explained, in very, very great detail, in the other thread.) So, no, it's not in substance what I said at all. It was, in fact, hoarded. But the degree to which it was hoarded can be measured in handfuls to dozens of copies per hoarder...not hundreds and thousands of copies per hoarder, like X-Men #1, for example. No one was hoarding copies of Daredevil #289. Many people were hoarding quite a few copies of New Mutants #98. Thousands of people were hoarding millions of copies of X-Men #1. Perspective.

Too many printed & squirreled away in hopes of making a million off of it later for it to have any real value. -slym Yeah I thought that about NM 98 too. As RMA has pointed out in his 50 point thesis, this was not the case with NM 98, which was no more hoarded/speculated than any other second tier Marvel title. Hence we can have Iron Man 282 being worth something as well. A local store owner has been selling off his case of NM 98s the past 3 years bit by bit. He broke out a case of Spider-Man #1 Silver and Infinity Gauntlet #1 for the big local show in September. There are still plenty of LCS owners that have books in storage. WRT NM 98, 3 or 4 of years back one LCS owner had to raise cash fast and another LCS owner helped him out by buying 10,000 overstock books, mostly CA and early MA - there was some in it, but he also cobbled together a long box of NM 98s from it. Remember, the Leifeld run was hot due to the artwork and Cable. There are still plenty of copies out there. Again...the plural of anecdote is not evidence. There are an infinite number of stories. There is a finite number of copies that actually exist. Let's please not make the very serious mistake of trying to compare X-Men #4...which had a print run over one million copies, with sales NEAR a million...with New Mutants #98, which had a print run of ~250k, and sales around 200,000. I mean, seriously, people. That's just beyond any attempt at reason. The two books are clearly not in the same league. The reality is, gentlemen, that while New Mutants #98...and its fellow books...may have "plenty of copies" available, as kimik puts it...or "was no more hoarded/speculated than any other second tier Marvel title", as the blob imagines others have put it...it is not, and never was, a glut book, like X-Force #1, X-Men #4, and the other books that came after it.

Too many printed & squirreled away in hopes of making a million off of it later for it to have any real value. -slym Yeah I thought that about NM 98 too. As RMA has pointed out in his 50 point thesis, this was not the case with NM 98, which was no more hoarded/speculated than any other second tier Marvel title. Hence we can have Iron Man 282 being worth something as well. Please do not invent statements out of thin air, and then attribute them to me. I said nothing even remotely like that. Thank you.