RockMyAmadeus

I'm jealous...sweet book yeah, she's a beaut. I don't think I have any 9.8 potentials copies. Although.....I would be imPRESSed if I did find one.... Huh? I don't have any 9.8 potential copies of this book, and I was making an oft-repeated pressing joke.

If you want to say SOTST #20 is more important, that's fine, and there's a good case for that if you're just talking about "the debut of a very important writer." However...just like Amazing Spiderman #300 is more important than #298 because of the STORY, rather than the ARTIST, I'm going to stick with #21 for the same basic reason. It really boils down to personal taste after that...and personal taste is indisputable. Neal Adams + "social relevance." It is, by leaps and bounds, the most important and most valuable Neal Adams book because of the story. I don't think anyone really cares that much about the addition of GA.

I'm jealous...sweet book yeah, she's a beaut. I don't think I have any 9.8 potentials copies. Although.....I would be imPRESSed if I did find one....

Matt, I'm not deriding your position, but I think if you simply look at influence (what the other generational markers hinge on. Superman, Flash, don't know the bronze aged marker), it becomes clear that TMNT 1 is the clear frontrunner. (and I think your idea that Moore's Swamp Thing run has real legs) 4 movies 3 or more cartoon series dozens of toy lines 6+ comic book lines, and still printing currently trades that have almost never gone out of print large cultural influence (adjective, adjective, adjective, noun comics!!!) It's clear as day to me. Ehhhhhhh..... I dunno if I buy this. As far as the INDUSTRY is concerned, Turtles had very, very little impact after the B&W explosion imploded. Turtles have had their ups and downs, including several lapses in publishing schedule. They spent most of the 90's/2000's in the doldrums. Moore'e Swamp Thing, however? Vastly, vastly influential to the industry. Culturally, no doubt, Turtles is much, much bigger, no doubt. But in terms of overall impact to the industry? Moore's Swamp Thing was far reaching and cast a wide net deep AND wide amongst comics creators. You can make a case that, without Moore's Swamp Thing, not only would there never have been the obvious...Vertigo, Watchmen, Hellblazer, Sandman, Preacher, Animal Man, etc.....but it's quite possible there may not have been a Hellblazer movie, a Watchmen movie, a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie, and even a Sin City and Hellboy. Swamp Thing just blows Turtles out of the water as far as the industry impact goes. And this is common...in many other fields, there are masters who are recognized only by others in the industry....they may even have a monstrous influence on those who ARE famous, but they may not be famous themselves, at least to the outside world. They call those people a "director's director", or a "composer's composer", an "actor's actor" etc. Alan Moore is a "writer's writer" and Swamp Thing is a "series's series."

Isn't Totlebon one of the most underated artists of the past 30 years? All of his stuff on the "Moore books" (Swamp Thing, MM) is just fantastic. So detailed and precise. Just beautiful. John Totleben is one of the greatest artists since Barry Windsor Smith and Bernie Wrightson. WILDLY, WILDLY underrated. You want brilliance? Swamp Thing #53. Every page a visual feast. And seriously, if some of you out there reading this have NOT read Alan moore's Swamp Thing, come on....what the hell are you waiting for? I've convinced people who have NEVER...IN THEIR LIVES...read a DC book to read Swamp Thing and they LOVED it. Committed Marvel guys? Doesn't matter. Go read it, people. #20-#64. You won't be disappointed.

Hmmmm...yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that Day pencilled the issue....but Totleben's inks are so distinctive and strong, it wasn't that much of a change. Issue #20 was much more of a wrap-up to several Pasko threads. #21 was the issue that did it. #21 was revolutionary. Even if #20 was classic Moore, #21 was...something totally different. It's like Hulk #180 and #181. The first gives you a taste...a great taste, no doubt....but the second was really what started it all. I have no problem marking #21 as the beginning, rather than #20. DC apparently didn't either, with the first trade starting at #21.

(Now I'm just shamelessly bumping my post count....)

(see, if I read the whole thread BEFORE responding, I wouldn't have needed to post....but what good does that do my post count, I ask you? NOTHING! )

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else. At least, I hope so. Since his parenthetical immediately followed a reference to 90's drek, it definitely was a reference to the hideous 90's Marvel, Silver Sable, and not the decent 80's Grell book. I didn't need to say anything....you guys did it for me. You rock!

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else. At least, I hope so. You are correct!

Ummm....what are you talking about? Read the paragraph that came from again, and all will become clear.....

And #20 was continued from #19, which was continued from #18, etc. It was a long story arc that was essentially wrapped up in #21. In fact, I imagine quite a few readers didn't even notice the difference in writers because it was fairly seamless, wespecially with Bissette & Totleben continuing as artists... And, of course, Alan Moore being Alan Moore, there continued to be elements from Pasko's run prior all the way up to American Gothic. He didn't just ditch what had come before.

Do we all not just "rent" our comic books eventually, somewhere along the line they will no longer be ours indeed as is everything else..everything eventually goes back into a box (even us) No box for me! ashes to ashes and dust to dust (thumbs u

Do we all not just "rent" our comic books eventually, somewhere along the line they will no longer be ours indeed as is everything else..everything eventually goes back into a box (even us) No box for me!

wow, both former copies of mine...cool (thumbs u You know, you never cease to amaze me with the books you own.....but even more, the books you've ownED. :hail: yeah, but like sands in an hourglass, I can't hold onto any of them... I just "rent" them Yes, but much like a Park Avenue Condo, I can't afford the rent there, either...

Wait...wait a second...we weren't talking about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, we were talking about the fading away of long running non-superhero genre books. If you're going to bring Swamp Thing into the mix, then that's a whole different argument. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is in a class by itself. No single creator had more influence on the comics industry in the 1980's than Alan Moore, and yes, I'm including Frank Miller. The value and influence of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing CANNOT be overstated. It is the quintessential Copper Age book, the title from which not only multiple different titles sprang, but which also created an entire publishing imprint within the oldest comics publisher on the planet. Without Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, I don't know if there would have been a Dark Knight Returns, a Watchmen, a Sandman, an Animal Man, Preacher....there DEFINITELY would not have been a Hellblazer. Or, if there was, perhaps it would not have been published by DC, and they may have had to wait much longer. While the B&W explosion was certainly important to the industry, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a paradigm shift in the way comics were created, a watershed in comics history. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was more important than any and every B&W published, with the possible exception of Turtles, and then it's a tight call. If one were to date the Copper Age with a definitive start, I can think of NO more qualified SINGLE book than Swamp Thing #21. People didn't realize it then...but that single book changed the industry forever. It is as important to its era as FF #1 is to its. (and please no one make the mistake of thinking I said ST #21 was as important as FF #1. Read that sentence carefully.)

wow, both former copies of mine...cool (thumbs u You know, you never cease to amaze me with the books you own.....but even more, the books you've ownED. :hail:

How could I not have seen this thread...? Oh, I know....because I have about 5 GA Tecs. (thumbs u

(how's that analysis of the B&W explosion, noljoner...?)

Well, alrighty then. I've never heard or read anything like that, but hey, it's something new to me. I would suggest that the deaths of long running non-superhero genres were because they were no longer important, and no one was buying them. I agree completely that they were victims of the switch from the newsstand to the Direct market, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the importance of the B&W explosion. They quietly passed away, unnoticed and unmourned by most. The B&W explosion, however, had a long lasting influence on the American comic book industry, long past the actual "explosion." One of its most important influences was that it brought us the works of creators like Matt Wagner, Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, Stan Sakai, Ron Lim, Vince Locke, Tim Vigil, Eric Larsen, and not least, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, all of whom got their start, or had their most notable work, in Black and White comics, most during the "explosion." It also was the first time since the 1960's that books from companies besides Marvel and DC were really competitive with "the Big Two", at least for a little while. That may not be its greatest claim to fame, but it DID broaden the horizons of quite a few readers into books outside DC and/or Marvel...which, in turn, allowed for a more fertile environment for later companies like Valiant and Image to succeed. Without the B&W explosion, it is doubtful Image would ever have existed, and Valiant may not have been nearly as successful, as readers may not have been as willing to "try new stuff." And, of course, it allowed creators to create and SELL books that DC and Marvel would never have published at the time, so even though there was a lot of drek (mostly self) published, there were a few gems, and some of them went on to be the most influential comics of the entire decade. The same thing happened during the early 90's...comics were so successful, people like Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Joe Linsner, and Drew Hayes, plus many others, could afford to publish their own creations and have people actually read their stuff. That environment, again, may produce a lot of drek (Silver Sable, anyone?) but it also subsidizes some truly great art, art that would otherwise never see the light of day. How many Matt Wagners, Jeff Smiths, Dave Sims, and others have not been able to create their dreams, simply because the comics publishing industry could barely support the Big Two, much less independents. I'm sure I'm forgetting other impacts the explosion had, which someone else will probably include. So, I tend to think the B&W explosion was far, far more important to comics than the (mostly unheralded) end of long running genre books, but that's just me.

You really think that the final death of long running genre books was more important than the B&W explosion....? And that the B&W explosion was just a "blip"....?

Apparently not, which is why I'm wondering where they all went...

I'd like to find that seller. I got my ashcans all at once....about 10 blues #1s, 35 reds #1s, plus the 10 black 2s and the 1 black 3...all from Jay Company, who got them straight from Sam.

So that accounts for 2 #3s. 48 more to go!

Ah yes, that's right....the A/P versions. Forgot those, and that makes perfect sense. I believe that the A/Ps are actually the artist proofs that they got back to make sure the book was decent, which would probably make them the first signed. It's possible that the A/Ps are actually part of the 50 total (meaning there are numbers missing that are "A/P") but I have nothing to support this. Thanks for sharing that info!