Genuine Article Comics

I look at it like this.....if I buy a comic on Ebay from someone who sells comics, toys, clothing, knick knacks, bicycle parts etc and the book come back as trimmed or restored, I can virtually guarantee I'd eat that loss and chalk it up to taking a gamble and lost. The guy I bought from only sells comics...hes a comics dealer. If a comics dealer does not disclose restoration/trimming then I believe the book is free from resto/trimming unlike the mom and pop 5 and dime scenario above.

I know resto and certainly trimming can be difficult to detect but does that relieve the comics dealer from any responsibility? I'm generally an optimistic person but how do I know the dealer was unaware the book was trimmed? Why does that even matter when we now know the book is definitely trimmed? I would never have bought a trimmed book let alone pay a 3rd party to officially tell me its trimmed. A comics dealer needs to stand behind their books. It's his business, more than mine I'd say, to know his books are free from resto/trimming as he's the one offering it for sale....and if he doesn't know, its imperative he make it right.

43 minutes ago, Gaard said:

Send it back. No partial refunds ... all or nothing.

I generally agree with this but in this particular case would you say I'm out the grading and shipping fees then? 

seller: comics_ink

Events:
sold me Worlds Finest 88 (Oct 2019).
sent to Grading Co. for encapsulation.
came back as Trimmed.
notified seller; he stated he doesn't check/doesn't know about Restoration/Trimming. he offered me $60 in store credit (50% of what I paid for the book).
I Declined store credit because he doesn't do/know about Restoration checks/Trimming so it's possible I'd receive another Restored/Trimmed book. 
I did say I'd accept a $60 partial refund (not the ideal solution to me but better than nothing).
End of communication from comics_ink.

What do you guys think here? Am I wrong?

I never intentionally buy Restored/Trimmed books. Had I known this book was either of those things I would not have bought it.

On 5/5/2020 at 7:29 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Some people have mixed up CBCS and Steve Borock.

I'd like you to elaborate on this please. I'm interested in what you mean.

9 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

I cut off the portion irrelevant to this discussion.

So if CGC did start up this service, how would it be a benefit to CBCS?

Or are you saying you guys are such autograph lovers that, although you would never use CGC, you feel bad that the people who only use CGC will never get to enjoy their sigs "authenticated" inside a slab?

Yeah, that's rhetorical sarcasm.

...and yet another example of "rhetorical sarcasm" in what should be a legitimate conversation on elevating our hobby. You're not interested in moving the hobby forward and upward. You've already decided CGC is the end all and be all and competition can't possibly benefit the hobby.  I'm out. Thanks.

23 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

The real question is why would people so loyal to CBCS want CGC to start this program? Are they willing to change their loyalties so easily? That would indicate that they think CGC is the superior product, no?

Or are we talking magazines only? Doubtful.

It's not about changing loyalties...its about  recognizing a valuable service to the hobby.  Even if I was 100% loyal to CBCS and 100% against CGC, I would never want CGC gone from the hobby. Legitimate grading companies are good for our hobby, legitimate competition is good. I believe they provide a valuable service to us. I like CBCSs grading, I like their slabs and labels. I like CGCs as well which is why I'm a customer of both. I support the companies that support, bolster and champion our great hobby.

1 hour ago, 50 Fiddy said:

I'm sure they will be here for a while.  Since they launched their census, I looked up a couple recent "hot" books and was surprised at the difference between the number graded between the two companies.  The total number graded is not even close.  Doesn't look too legit to me.

Hell Arisen #3

CGC
Total 944 0 78 0 1022
Total 116 0 19 0 135
Total graded 1157

CBCS
Year of the Villain: Hell Arisen (DC - 2020) Ricardo Federici Variant 3 0 0 5 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 11/0
Year of the Villain: Hell Arisen (DC - 2020) 3 0 0 17 5 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 25/0
Total graded 36

Batman 89

CGC
Regular Cover Total 437 3 87 0 527
Variant Cover Total 195 0 35 0 230
Total 757

CBCS
Batman (DC - 2020) Francesco Mattina Variant 89 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 12/0
Batman (DC - 2020) 89 0 0 32 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 35/0
Total 47
 

 

Did you really think it would be different? Come on,  CGC is Goliath to CBCSs David...there's no dispute who the heavyweight is....but again I reiterate; there's room for both.

5 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

Looks like they pulled my link to the CBCS board? Harumph. It's easy to find, it's currently at the top.

Here's a recent quote that's telling. Posters over there don't care about accuracy or honesty, they just want to bash CGC.

"CGC's negative reaction to the concept of VSP sounds a lot like sour grapes."

 

This is where we disagree. We do care about accuracy and honesty....just as much as you do. We also believe in the authentication process...that's it. We believe in it and you don't period. Believing in the authentication process is not the same as not believing in accuracy and honesty.

I like and use both companies. I think CBCS is a positive contributor to this hobby. They elevate it. There's room for both. It shouldn't be a competition amongst the hobbyists....the let companies battle it out...let the hobbyists use the positives that both companies offer. If you feel one company isn't offering something positive, fine, but don't get in the way of people who do. There's room for both.

Did CGC not change there SS witness program back in 2018 that broke the chain of verification? Serious question...they changed something in their process did they not?

10 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Some people like the fact that CGC isn't guessing if a signature is authentic or not. 

A lot of people prefer that if they buy a signed slabbed book that the label indicates that the signature was actually witnessed, and affirmed to be from that person, and not simply a best guess that it looks a lot like the signature of that person, as best they can tell, but won't guarantee it. 

It's fine that people want to get their pre-SS books slabbed by someone, but there are real reasons why witnessed signatures will always be a superior product to "verified" signatures. Because no matter how "professional" the handwriting analyst is (and these are NOT FBI-level forensic analysts, I assure you) he's just giving you his or her best guess. For a lot of purchasers, that's not good enough because they've been down this road before and been let down by "verified" signatures that turned out to be fakes. 

This implies the SS program is infallible and it too is not 100%. The grades assigned to the books themselves is an opinion is it not? An opinion from professionals, correct? The signature authentication is nothing less.

We're obviously not going to agree on this service so we can leave it at that. To you its dicey and greed intentioned and to me it's a legitimate, recognized profession and a service needed in the hobby.

7 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

The best case scenario is not to get involved in a sketchy operation in the first place  CGC values the integrity of their SS program too much to get involved with something like this.

So? Those people got books signed because the loved the hobby and the creators. You think they need some dicey authentication service to prove anything? Old school collectors got autographs out of love, not greed.

Not sure what one has to do with the other. It's an authentication service provided by handwriting experts based on known verified examples. A legitimate service in practice far before the comic hobby needed it.

12 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

...if they did do it then The B team would be just about out of business.

If by B team, you mean CBCS, never happen. Their product is too good to go away. They're legit and here to stay...and as hobbyists we should encourage it.

CGC not offering an authentication service is a missed opportunity. Authentication service by handwriting professionals is the best case scenario when a book has been signed unwitnessed. There was an entire generation of collectors at cons getting signatures before the witness program was even dreamed of. This generation (and then some) of signed books need this service. CBCS is addressing the hobbyists' need.

Yes, but this is after the fact. The book is already signed. You can't verify an already signed book, you can only authenticate. Authentication is used in courts of law. It's the opinion of professionals. Authentication is a tool, a professional opinion, when going back in time to witness is not possible.  Many signatures are of creators who have since passed away where witnessing is impossible.  Authentication = opinions of professional hand writing experts using known verified examples of signatures. And besides all this, let's not get into the facts that there are potential issues with the witnessing program itself.

Take your book to CBCS for their VSP program. It's a great service that fills a need in the hobby.