EwanUK

That said, if we look at the two below, and assume that they were done as part of the US first print run, why would they change a 10c price box to another 10c price box in a different font?

 

Similarly, why would these two be produced as part of the same print run in the US?:

Again, the prices are the same but in different fonts.

 

I'm a UK based newbie - who could we pose this to at CGC for their thoughts?

 

The cents then pence white box hypothesis seems entirely plausible. However, do we know of any "non-boxed" pence copies?

Different fonts: absolutely why?

Using a very modern example, I understand WD no.1 has some cover text in black then white; both considered "first prints". Another inexplicable printing change (?) perhaps these are just anomalies / errors?

CGC - with all respect I doubt they'll know. They call pence copies "UK editions" and I don't think anybody has ever noticed the font or indicia differences until you and I did.

Isn't it ironic that our hobby has so much content expertise yet very few of us know much about the printing techniques of the past.

 

The point being though, that to change the 10c to 9p, you could start over from the mechanical stage, and replace the 10c with a 9p... And shoot new film. OR, you can work with the final negatives and simply paint a react angle over the 10c letters with an opaque paint right on the negative. Instead of 10c appearing within the artwork, you'd now get a white rectangle.

 

The next step is to add 9p letters inside this white boxed area.. To do this you typeset 9p , black letters on white bkgnd, at the size you want it fitting within your white box and shoot a copy of it onto clear film. Then you shoot a negative OF the negative you painted the black rectangle over the 10c letters. Now the black box is a clear box. You then position the black 9p on clear film within the clear box on the new negative-negative you shot, tape them together so the 9p doesn't move, and shoot another negative. You do this for all 4 ink color negatives and the result is a white box with black 9p in it... And --- you end up with an identical cover to the 10c original cover... Down to the last dot.

 

You knocked out the 10c and stripped in the 9p.

 

Now understood - many thanks for taking the time to explain that

So on balance of probability the boxed cents are printed after; not necessarily "2nd prints" (as we know them) but printed second...

However, unboxed cents and pence have no such determination

Still, given that we have Cents copies without T&P indicias, and cents copies with differing price fonts and T&P indicias, we can conclude I guess is that:

 

- The cents copy in your hand may not be a first printing

- It may have been printed outside of the US

- There are multiple variants out there for those that go into that sort of thing

 

 

I think need to be a little careful with the "first print" terminology, as we are still speculating - and I think it's very likely (common sense economically-speaking) that the comics were only printed in ONE original location, but exchanging different plates

The are four variants identified

Cents

Cents box

Pence

Cents with UK indicia

We will never know what order these were printed in - and to be honest, it could be different for different issues or titles, as is being discovered!

So all first prints until we know better ?

Secondly, I might be being slow, but I didn't quite understand the post about the box or no box, and why printing dictates a certain order?

Amazing...

So many variants now the mind-boggles

However, proven that my GW 63 spot was certainly not a one-off

Perhaps it was only Westerns? L Miller perhaps had some special arrangement?

The L Miller text looks like it has been added later, printed on later, or stamped on?

thanks Steve

Random thought: in 1961 would we still be hosting American troops in bases?

Assume American periodicals were imported?

Could these by a reason for the hybrids? (Hey "hybrid variant" - good name?)

Fantastic summaries "Dog" (have you a real name?)

Can of worms opening,,,

JIM 65 - could the "wonky" font just be bad printing? I don't know enough about techniques from those days but assume the plates (?) could slip slightly?

I do have another issue I saw with UK indicia, but for the life of me can't find the image. Pretty sure it was an early TOS with brown cover. Will keep looking.

GW 65 - font - I don't think that line through the "10c" is a spine tic, I think it's that the font is poorly printed. But yes, other than that the font is the same

loving this investigation - has anyone else got original owner copies of these books, UK or USA?

 

It's looking like all Cents copies include the T&P indicia line. If so, we're down to three variants only, and a question mark over why the font difference exists (if it is not related to copies run off for the UK market).

 

I'll keep digging.....

Great work!!!

I can't believe ALL the cents copies have the T&P indicia line

There are significant implications to that, if that's the case

Has a USA-only collector got an original owner copy of this book

Not wanting to be cynical, but I wouldn't trust your average ebayer's response without seeing a pic either

[i've had various orignal MM that look like they were printed yesterday too.

Well, if you've seen contemporary issues with comparable page quality, that certainly makes it a lot more plausible.

I have about 450+ of the MM run

I'd say 300 are FN or lower

40 VF range

10 VF to NM, and just 4 of those 9.4 or above

There are high grade "file" copies out there that could pass as facsimilies in a small pic - but close up the paper is totally different

I understand Derek's run is mostly high grade

Had another look today.

I think the MM 25 is legit as the facscimilie does not have the tear front from margin 3/4 up the cover.

The YM 25 looks like the fac copy but as we've said no way of knowing unless you could personally inspect each issue

MM 26 did NOT have a fac done. However, there were 100s of other issues MM YM MF and CM / CMJ that did.

So we now have THREE MM 26's known out there.

A lot of the other comics: 1950s Milllers, T&P, Alan Class look stunning too. I just don't get how such a collection could be so badly sold. Assume it's a deceased estate with ignorant relations...? Who knows..

Even the Marvel UK stuff, like a run of CB, including no.1 & no.8 for £20

Probably L Miller Phantoms in there somewhere - £100+ each

Anyway, I reckon it'll all come to market... Compal would wet their pant to get it (as would I !)

Tell me about it...

 

Some of the other lots are just mind bending if you know anything at all about British comics.

 

Didn't come up for me on saleroom or invaluable too, I only found it because one of my customers sent me a link saying I might be interested.

 

And yeah, he'd sent the link the day before the auction... Kill me now.

 

Looking at the prices realised you'd have to say that probably one person knew what they were bidding on and everyone else was just bidding for curiosity value. I think one person has most likely picked up a huge majority of the lots by just bidding on everything.

 

That's what I would have done.

 

For a couple grand outlay I think they're looking at a nice house deposit...

Yes easily 20k +

And agree entirely with your assessment of the bidding too...

Still I've had my fair share of wins over the years

Actually hope a lot of it comes to market again, particularly the MM & YM books

Don't know about you but using Salesroom is very hit and miss. Another auction I'm certain I won everything bidded on but none went through. I'm pretty sure in others I ended up bidding against myself!

And remember, no one ever copied the #26...

No that's true. You're right.

I just can't believe how nice they all look

The auction house is on the Saleroom & Invaluable so I can't understand how it didn't register...

Wonder where it all came from

Wonder where it all went...

Looking at some of the other pics... well I'm not so sure now

There's some quite amazing stuff in that auction - the prices are almost making me cry. Many hammer prices are about 10% of resell value... good grief

Some of the later MMs are definitely real as have rusty staples

The grades on some other British titles look unreal

Am totally gob-smacked

https://www.andersonandgarland.com/Town-County-Sale-Day-1/25-10-2016?gridtype=listview

 

Lots 180 & 181 I missed it by two hours.

 

Check out the whole catalogue, lot of very nice British stuff

 

So yea...

I'm pretty sure the MM 25 and YM 25 are FACSIMILIES - copies

If not, then suddenly two previously unknown high grade copies have suddenly come to market. The YM 25 looks particularly "unlikely"

Remember, dozens of issues were very carefully copied in the 1990s for an "art" project. The paper is white and much more modern than the originals.

It's pretty shocking.

But it's even more shocking if I'm wrong and they went for such a low amount!

I like it Ewan. I've never liked CGCs "UK Edition" myself. I prefer "Pence Copy ". If you call the US copies cents then you may as well call UK versions pence. My research only relates to the Marvel copies which all rolled off the presses together in the US at the same time, not reprints. I'll keep investigating and see if any other Cents copies with UK indicias turn up. If they do, and there are also versions without the UK indicia addition , then we have indeed happened across a new set of variants.

 

Until we have copies in our hands / internal scans, we'll need more research before we can call up font variants - it may be that they are the cents with uk indicias. .... all good fun

Indeed - all good fun

But the "font" variant is clearly real - I'm betting it has an UK indicia inside

The standard T&P Marvel pence indicia is as below

more of a "stamp" tyoe (like the Miller one) rather than the TTA

I

I find this conversation very interesting because a few weeks ago we were discussing 1st / 2nd / 3rd prints in the GA forum (specifically Marvel Comics #1 but it spilled over into other books) and if someone could find a proper theory as to how and when these pricing slugs were changed it may help understand how it was done in the GA as well.

 

It is fascinating. Perhaps we can find evidence for a lot more Golden & silver-age variants.

BTW, this was the New Fun no.6 pence copy ("shilling copy" )

 

Further copy of #26 sold last week, along with #25 and #28-40 inclusive. Plus a further run of later numbers. £350 hammer price for the lot.

 

Same sale had YM #25-29 and a further run of later numbers. £200 hammer price for the lot.

crikey

which auction was that? missed completely and I'm on most of them daily

who bought them?

Naming conventions...?

ORIGINALS

Contents identical apart from price / date / indicia

Cents copy

Cents price variant (i.e. 15c, 30c or 35c)

Cents font variants (research needed)

Pence copy (i.e. 9d, 10d, later bronze Marvel & DC 8p, 9p, 10p etc)

Cents UK indicia (only GW no.63 so far)

"UK edition" is the term used by CGC - however they also use this on graded L Miller / Alan Class books (as below) so not consistent

There was another thread that had an early Golden Age New Fun with a pence price too!

BRITISH ORIGINAL REPRINTS

L Miller

T&P

Alan Class

Odhams

All 1st generation Marvel UK titles

Two more links - this time to Tales To Astonish #16 - both lifted from Ebay, both 10c copies but with completely different fonts. Maybe they were applied by hand?

 

 

TTA 16

 

TTA 16 2

Would someone be able to do that compare thing?

The 1st copy is almost certainly a UK "original owner" copy. WE need to see the indicia.

 

I think you're onto something here. I saw your Gunsmoke variant in the other post and have been pondering it. What is odd is that it's indicia says L Miller , not Thorpe & Porter. All online evidence suggests that Miller only did reprints and T & P were the sole distributors of Marvel originals. I'm planning to do some investigating on this and will report back. What is clear is that, as long as there is a cents priced Gunsmoke 63 without the L Miller indicia, then we have identified a new strand of variant. The debate would have to be what we call them . Really interesting stuff and, with the JIM example, a potential load of under the radar variants. I'll see what I can find out.

Thanks. It is definitely a newly discovered variant.

But yes, has anyone got another GS no.63 to show the indicia pls?

L Miller / T&P / Alan Class all shared printing and distribution resources over the 1950s and early 1960s. However, it is a good point. Unfortunately this is the only example I've seen so far - but I recall seeing stickered 9d cents comics previously.

I think I may have an answer: there appear to be some little known British CENTS/PENCE variants out there

From 1959-1961

I did post this in a recent UK the price thread....

This is Gunsmoke Western no.63

Clearly CENTS price on the cover...

BUT with a UK indicia

I found the book in a UK original owner collection - so was bought in the UK

This is the normal cents version... pic from Google

note the different fonts again

Theory is: these were published / printed in America, shipped over, stamped with the T&P indicia, then distributed to newsagents... who were supposed to stick little 9d stickers on them... obviously not alll were stickered...

Miracleman no.1 confirmed print-run of 135,000, no.2 70,000

Was there some discussion on the Amalgam issues recently?

Found a 2nd print of Dark Claw which I'm pleased with

says "2nd print" in the indicia too

what was the research on the blank UPC issues?

Some recent acquisitions, most now sold on

MM Gold

Signed Warrior no.1 - Moore, Leach, Dez, Steve Dillon, Lloyd, Steve Moore!

FE no.5

Fusion no.2

Bought a collection of about 4,000 comics

Just ONE DCU in all of them... but a new one for me

I note the box has a different finish to the cover, i.e. unglossed

I did... and do... and here's my copy

have a spare copy going on ebay from Sunday too

great fanzine (in Spanish) loads of Moore and a few bits of unique art