rjrjr

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

HBO's approach to this baffles me.  Why not pause the series two or three years ago once they had exhausted Martin's released material and spin off into areas we already know Martin will never delve into due to the slow pace at which he releases material and due to his advanced age?  There's plenty of killer material alluded to throughout the books that they could have put on screen that could easily take a decade or more to fully develop.  The rise of the Targeryens back when they had dragons could probably fill as many seasons as you wanted it to.

I think they did the right thing by forging ahead:

1) Martin has been taking forever to release the final books in the series and HBO and audiences are not going to wait 10+ years for the end of the story.  This is television, not books.

2) The actors and actresses are going to age and they are not going to wait around for years waiting for a paycheck. 

3) George R.R. Martin is 69.  He won't live forever and there is a good chance he will never finish the book series anyway.  After The Winds of Winter is A Dream of Spring.  If Winds of Winter is released this year (I'm not holding my breath) that will have been 7 years since the last book.

4) HBO made a choice to not use all the character, situations, etc. from the books in the television series in the first place and they probably had a good reason.  Whether it is because of budget, they don't feel the material was compelling enough, etc. why would they use it now if they didn't feel they should use it in the first place?

Here is how long it took between previous books:

- A Game of Thrones (1996)

- A Clash of Kings (1998) (2 years)

- A Storm of Swords (2000) (2 years)

- A Feast of Crows (2005) (5 years)

- A Dance with Dragons (2011) (6 years)

Season 1 of Games of Thrones was released in 2011 when the last book was released.  HBO had been working on the series since the end of 2008.  There was plenty of time for Martin to have written the remaining books and have the HBO series follow his work.  Let's face it, Martin could have gotten ahead of all this in the years it took the series to be released.  It was his choice to work on other books and not these.  We also do not know what is in the contract HBO has with Martin.

Regardless of how Martin finishes the series, assuming he does, because he waited, fans are going to be comparing what happened in the television series to what he put in the books instead of the other way around.  That means his work is what will be scrutinized instead of the show.  Honestly, that isn't a position I'd want to be in as a writer.

As predicted, TLJ moved into 1st place for 2017 and passed Rogue One internationally over the weekend.  Yesterday, it would have passed The Dark Knight domestically and it is on track to pass The Avengers domestically.  Whether or not it will overtake Jurassic World or Titanic domestically is up in the air.  But it will finish in the top 5 domestic grosses of all time.  It is likely it will break into the top 10 international grosses of all time.  It opens in China this coming weekend and how it does there will determine where it falls in the top 10.  China has not been kind to the Star Wars franchise.

2 hours ago, Max Carnage said:

I thought He-man was '83 so at 13 I was a teenager and too big for toys

I was born in 1969 and thus too old for He-Man.  I did watch it on television after school, but was not interested in the toys.

8 hours ago, Foley said:

Any idea where the Sith rule of 2 will go from here with the death of Snoke? Has it been abandoned? Will Kylo train an apprentice? Is Snoke not really dead?

I am not convinced Snoke is a Sith.  Has it been mentioned anywhere (books, etc.) that he is?

9 hours ago, CAHokie said:

Ok, serious question for those that liked the movie. Did you guys really enjoy him tossing the lightsaber like that after being such a meaningful moment the movie before? Star Wars has had humor like he said, but I don’t remember it being that type of humor  I feel it was poor choice and set the tone.

I didn't like that part.  But I didn't let it ruin the movie for me.

Just now, jsilverjanet said:

Heck it’s as bad as Iron Man 3

Now that's bad! 

1 hour ago, jsilverjanet said:

The opening of the Force awakens

 

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. 

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. 

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...."

the whole basis of the movie is to find Luke. Everything in TFA is set up for the big moment at the end of Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke, the Last Jedi.

JJ is a complete doosh for setting it up that way if Luke wasn’t going to be significant in any way. Thank god Rian Johnson saved the franchise by making some young stable boy a potential Jedi, giving us Rose to save and teach Finn the meaning of sacrifice.  Or showing Poe how to be a true leader and not a hot shot pilot.

without Rian Johnson restructuring all these characters we’d be left with nothing to look forward to in episode 9

Hip hip hooray!

This is one place we disagree.  Luke was significant in TLJ.  He had plenty of screen time.  You just didn't like how they used the character and I did.

1 hour ago, jsilverjanet said:

Blaming the force awakens for setting up questions of Snoke and Rey’s lineage (reason the light saber calls to her) seems a bit much 

let’s blame Lucas for creating this world a long long time ago where Jedi and Sith have specific rules for eons and eons

I don’t understand how defending this movie has to result in tearing down everything that came before it

how is this the “true” Star Wars movie if it’s the last one in the series (so far)

some of you need to rethink your logic in the defense of this film. You make it seem like the only way Disney could move forward in the franchise is to make these only moves. That they had no choice. Lucas and Abrams left them no choice

 

I am not defending the movie.  I've explained why I like it.  I'm just having a conversation with others who seem interested in having a conversation.

1 hour ago, kimik said:

I have not seen the movie yet and likely will not now that the holiday break is over, but my guess is that the whole Rey as a nobody theme will be debunked in the next film as just a mind-trick by Fuglo Ren. While I hope that she is a descendant of Obi-Wan as a nice twist (he had a love interest in the Clone Wars cartoon), she will likely be a Skywalker. That way the new trilogy can have its not as surprising "I am your father" like reveal moment.

The surprise will be the New Order surviving the next movie and not repeating the mistakes of ROTJ.  That way, they can continue the movies for a long, long time.  Disney is in this for the long haul.

Rey being a nobody was perfect IMHO.  The Skywalker's had their time and their story was told in Episode 1 - 9.  I'm still having a hard time fathoming why people want these movies to just rehash the original trilogy?  I agree with a previous poster, the mistakes wasn't this movie, it was TFA.  It should never had opened up questions that were not important.  How disappointing would it have been if this movie followed the same storyline of ESB after TFA was a rehash of Star Wars?  I am so glad they decided to go a different direction.  I will be disappointed if JJ Abrams reverses all that and puts Star Wars back into a box after it just got out of it.

To me, a perfect ending to this trilogy would be if the NO wins.  They do wipe out the remaining Resistance.  That will make the ending of TLJ that much more important.  A new generation of heroes will need to rise and regroup and restore freedom to the galaxy.  A hero from Canto Blight joined by others.

54 minutes ago, Larryw7 said:

They're gonna run the franchise into the ground. Without Luke, Leia and Han, Star Wars will only have limited interest from the GA. No one went to see TFA because of Rey or Finn. It was because of one shot in the trailer: "Chewie, we're home".

 

This is precisely why it is important for Disney to kill off the main 3 original characters.  The story for those 3 characters has been told.  Disney wants to move forward even if it means losing a few old fans who just want the original 3 heroes.  I'm sure they will pick up more fans than they lose with the recent trilogy.  They did with the prequels, despite all the belly aching about those movies.  Someone is buying all the toys and merchandise and it isn't just old fans.

Running the franchise in the ground would be them just telling stories about the original 3 heroes, ala Star Trek.  I don't want to see geriatric versions of Han, Leia, and Luke movie after movie.  The actors are too old and the Star Trek crew looked silly in the end.  (Scotty knocking himself out by hitting his head on his own ship. )

Luke I can see sticking around, but that is now moot.  I liked the sendoff.  And I'm positive we will see him as a Force ghost.

4 hours ago, media_junkie said:

  Hide contents

Ok, so how the heck was Luke able to give Leia the dice if he was "force projecting"?  If he could physically send things light years away through the force why didn't he just drop a gernade on Snoke when he wasn't looking?

It is things like this that makes me rage against this movie.

19 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

A class act! Thanks for that.

You and I agree more often than not on most movies.  And clearly this movie wasn't for everyone (otherwise, why the backlash from some fans?)  I trust over time, just like other Star Wars movies, this movie will be seen in a new, more positive light once the disappointment of not living up to expectations subsides.  I feel it offers up much to discuss and really opens up the future potential of this franchise.  I hope they learn that the over the top humor is misplaced and the humor needs to be more subtle.  To me, that was THE problem with this movie, not Luke's character or how he was killed or any of the other story points.

The MCU/DCU has taught me to let go of my expectations and just enjoy what is present on the screen, not what I want on the screen.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to enjoy most of the current crop of superheroes movies.  I've learned to set the comic character's personalities aside and just go with how they act on the screen.  I understand in the movies, the characters all have the same voice, because that fits the formula that makes them successful.  For Star Wars, what happens on the screen is digested for what it is, not what I read in the Expanded Universe or how I would like something to turn out.  If it was what I would like, the Death Star II would have been constructed over Kashyyyk and the Empire would not have died shortly after ROTJ.   (In the perfect world, Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB8 would be fighting the Empire, not their spinoff the NO.)

It is telling to me how strongly others feel about TLJ.  Clearly, Star Wars has touched many people in ways that most franchises wish they could.  Unfortunately, this also means there are huge reactions when something doesn't go the way fans expect.

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I'll go with that last statement. What I experienced, for me, was not perfect. The whole 'projecting himself to the death' seemed like a letdown. But it certainly wasn't about the fact Luke dies (movies been out long enough to let this cat out of the bag).

But that doesn't mean you or others shouldn't enjoy it. I just shake my head when someone assumes it is people wanting it all to be just a continuation of the original characters, and nobody else.

Trust me, I'm sorry to hear others didn't enjoy it.  I would have been upset if the movie just retold the original trilogy, so I loved what they did by having Kylo (Vader) beat Snoke (the Emperor) and Rey (Luke) not be related to Kylo (Vader.)  Killing Snoke now sets up new dynamics we haven't had before.  Having Rey be a nobody clears the deck of all expectation on her heritage.

I wish you also enjoyed how Luke was killed.  His character grew and changed between movies and he was in a dark place.  Rey/R2-D2 brought him back.  He went out in a blaze of glory.  I was happy with that.  And he did it by displaying the most powerful use of the Force we've seen on screen yet.  I couldn't be happier.  I'm sorry you were not.

10 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Are you assuming the concern for those not satisfied the issue is Luke died versus how he died? Because I would say it is the latter. Not the former.

So they could have easily moved the franchise forward without the original characters. Just wrap up their quest in a better story, and it would have led to less concern with what we experienced now.

That was my point.  Fans had it played up in their head how Luke would be killed.  Nothing the writers could do would live up to that.

What was on the screen was perfect.  Luke showed his mastery of the Force in a very powerful and different way (Force projection) and his big death was him disappearing just we've seen with other powerful Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda.  And they threw a reminder of THE Luke scene from the original movie, when Luke was staring up at the twin Suns of Tatooine.

You didn't like what they did because you wanted to see Luke's final be different.  It doesn't make how they killed him bad.  Just different than what you expected.

You also wanted this final trilogy to be about the original heroes.  Their story was told.  Disney doesn't want the story to stagnate on those heroes and therefore moved on.  This is all about your expectations (wanting a last hurrah for your generation's heroes) and not what Disney feels is best for the franchise, moving the story forward.

This is the big problem Marvel and DC have with their fan base.  Their fans don't want to see the character's change and grow.  But they do want to complain about how the same stories keep getting told over and over again.  You can't have it both ways.  You either grow the characters and challenge them in new ways or you stagnate and read the same stories over and over again.

6 minutes ago, Azkaban said:

embarrassing  waiting two years for that

I once watched a 2 hour superhero movie just to have the big final showdown turn into a dance off challenge between the hero and the villain. 

At least this movie used this scene early.  You could have walked and saved yourself the headache of watching the whole thing.

BTW, I agree this humor was misplaced.

3 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Not quite true.

Empire actually made the least amount of money of the original trilogy upon release, and got the worst reviews of the three.

It was only generally considered the best of the three in retrospect.

So..."if the pattern holds" Episode IX should do better than The Last Jedi.

ESB was at $538,375,067 and ROTJ at $475,106,177 based on the numbers on Box Office Mojo.  I was basing my statement on that.  It is possible those numbers are incorrect.

13 minutes ago, I like pie said:

Absolutely not true. Every successful business puts top priority on maximizing profits, including Disney.

And they did that.  This movie is making money.  It's not like Disney didn't know there were going to be a few upset fans.  That is par for the course for Star Wars since the original trilogy ended.

They can't worry about the few vocal fans who would rather Star Wars was stagnant and not moving forward.  They are setting things up so they continue to make money off the franchise.

According to fans, jettisoning the Expanded Universe was bad.  How many fans did Disney lose then?  Disney did it anyway.  They want to succeed and grow the franchise, not be tied down by the aging fans who are holding the franchise hostage to what they think it should be.

Fans got their movie with TFA.  And there were still plenty of complaints.  There is no way for Disney to please everyone!

14 hours ago, Red84 said:

The biggest difference between Empire and Last Jedi - building interest for a next movie.

At the end of Empire - Vader is Luke's father?  How will he respond in the next movie?  Han's been kidnapped, will they rescue him in time?

At the end of Last Jedi - We know who Rey's parents are and Snoke is dead.  There is nothing to wonder about and nothing driving the next movie.

 

What about the inevitable conflict between Rey and Kylo?  That seems to be what this trilogy is building to.  It was clear to me this movie was a clearing of the deck and fans who were wondering about things that were not important (Rey's parentage, Snoke's background) were thrown to the wayside to focus on the conflict between Rey and Kylo.  I do feel bad for those fans who sat around wondering about these questions the past 2 years who are upset about this movie not addressing them to their satisfaction.  None of that mattered and they wanted the story to focus on something else and not rehash the original trilogy despite TFA using the same beats as Star Wars.

I enjoyed the movie because I was hoping Rey was a nobody.  I didn't want her to be a Skywalker, a Kenobi, or a Palpatine.  I thought her being a nobody made the galaxy that much bigger and more importantly didn't rehash the original trilogy.  I wasn't disappointed.

And the showdown that is coming between the leader of the NO and the last Jedi is a perfect setup for the final movie in the trilogy.  There won't be a third person who is redeemed to come in and save things.  We don't know what is going to happen.

14 hours ago, Wall-Crawler said:

I just got back from the movie so wanted to write while it was fresh...

My overall, my humble "overall review" is this...Not as "great" as the critics on RT are saying nor is it "as bad" as the general audience rating on RT either.  For me, it is somewhere in the middle.

The Good

I'm not sure where exactly to put this, so going to probably get reamed for putting it here, but here it is...Luke.  I heard a lot about how Luke was "mistreated"...I think I heard so much online I was expecting something really, really bad...I didn't find his reclusiveness and reasons (and subsequent explanations for it), all that bad...A hero can fall, stumble...But in the END, he came BACK. 

The meeting between Snoke, Rey and Kylo. I don't need to "know more" about Snoke. How much "back story" did we have on the Emperor in the original trilogy? We knew he was the dark lord, we didn't find out how he got there until episodes I, II and III. 

The fight scene with Snoke's guards was pretty cool, I thought. I think it also propels Kylo forward, he "surpassed" Vader by manipulating and then killing his master and assuming command.

I do not hate the fact that Rey's parents were not somehow linked to the "Force Royalty".  Anyone can be in tune with the force. "Anyone" can be a Jedi.  

The Bad

Too many corny jokes/scenes.  Star Wars has always had humour but they definitely "overdid it" in spots.

The entire casino and code breaker. Them riding those creatures through the casino. Ugh. Waste of time, not necessary. They magically "find" a guy just like the code-breaking hanging out in the same cell they are in? Wha? They could have found some other "Macguffin" to get Finn and Rose in there (and get captured) without that complete waste of time.

The pacing/timeline...Rey's training and the whole slow stalking of the last of the rebels fleet...The pacing and timeline of events seemed wonky to me.

The Dumb

"Super Leia". Words escape me. 

The "milking" thing. Yet another stupid CGI joke. I don't know why so many movies do stupid like this, but this one was beyond stupid.

My Personal Overall Rating:  6.5

This is definitely a flawed film and in parts, was jarring from the tone of Force Awakens.  I think it suffered from too much humour, some weird story choices and going against the grain in some respect as to what "the fans" were expecting.  It will be interesting to see how or if they "correct course", but even with the negative reviews, it is still a box office juggernaut so how much that will influence what happens in Episode 9, remains to be seen I guess.

I would give it an 8 out of 10, but much of my dislikes are similar to yours.  The jokes were the worst part.  I like the movie overall though and minus some misplaced jokes, this would have been a 9 or higher.  I also didn't mind the Luke storyline and I thought the sendoff was fitting.

16 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

I have a feeling this may change

Not based on ticket sales.  Disney could care less as long as they make money.  They've had to weather these controversies many times over the years.  I suspect all they care about is the bottom line and this movie is making money despite the voices of opposition.  I bet the toys are selling as well as all the other related merchandise.  That's all these studios care about, money.  TFA was also lambasted by a vocal crowd.  And the prequels.  Yet all those fans that were through came back to watch the next movie anyway.

Most pop culture fans who complain never actually go away.  They just stick around and moan, all the while handing over their money.  Look at Marvel comic sales for an example of this.

17 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Would have been better if someone had actually said this in 1980. They really REALLY had to shoehorn a few of those complaints to make them comparative to TLJ. 

For Kershner to have "destroyed his childhood" the guy writing this would still have to be a child (three years after Star Wars), so he's still got time.

Oddly, I saw ESB in the theaters, I know you did too....literally none of those things mentioned were complaints anyone had. People were blown away by what a down note the film was, and shocked by the twist, and appreciative of how much better Kershner put together a film. That's probably because it was the first time it was done, to be repeated in the prequels, to be re-repeated in the Dis-Trilogy.

Fans LOVED Yoda, because even as a puppet they gave him real gravity. They didn't have him pause in the middle of training to make a fart joke. 

 

Did Yoda make a fart joke in the new movie?

Comparison's between the revenue generation difference between Star Wars/ESB and TFA/TLJ are interesting.  ESB made far less money than Star Wars during it's initial release and I suspect the percentage difference between TLJ and TFA will be very similar.  Both Star Wars and TFA had the advantage of being the first in their trilogies.  If the pattern holds, the third movie will make just shy of the second movies revenue.

9 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

Overall this has been an awful year for Marvel-produced television shows.  Inhumans was terrible, Iron Fist was terrible, the Defenders was bad, and Punisher was just OK.  Legion and The Gifted were probably the best Marvel-related shows, but those were produced by Fox and are about to come under the Marvel umbrella.  My understanding of the power structure with Marvel media is that the films are produced by Marvel Studios under Kevin Feige, and the shows are produced by Marvel Entertainment under Ike Perlmutter and Alan Fine.  Feige has proven to be the savviest media executive in all of comics, whereas it's clear that Perlmutter and Fine struggle just like all the others do.  Strangely, DC's shows have thrived of late while their films have languished, whereas with Marvel it's the opposite, the films are booming with Feige but wilting under Perlmutter/Fine.

Is there any reason to believe this will improve?  Why isn't Disney actively trying to fix this?  They must know by now that Perlmutter needs to either be outright fired or to at minimum have Marvel Entertainment taken away from him, so why isn't it happening?  

I disagree that Kevin Feige is savvy.  I think he has stumbled across a formula that works for the Marvel movies and has pretty much stuck to it feature after feature with little variation.  (Interestingly, those Marvel movies that don't follow the formula exactly are some of my favorite, even if they are not the biggest money makers.)

The television shows can improve, but if I was Disney, I'm not sure I would rock the cart.  Keep skimping on the television shows and sink that money into the tried and true formula they use for the movies.  The movies bring in more revenue and Netflix has already ponied up for the television shows, whether they are good or not.

29 minutes ago, Chip Cataldo said:

I think I'm headed back Monday for a second viewing. 

I'm going this weekend for my 2nd viewing.  So much I missed the 1st time around based on what I've been reading.

39 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

Imagine if the movie was good how much more it would have made 

I enjoyed the movie and I'm a longtime fan having seen the original movie in 1977.  I also know many others who enjoyed it.  I know we like to believe the vocal voices online represent a large part of the population, but as should be obvious by now when comparing online opinions and box office $$$, they don't always sync.  We've had ample examples on these boards over and over again.

I think you are overestimating the impact the vocal online has for people who go to the movies.  I brought up Rotten Tomatoes to several friends and not all of them are even aware of the site's existence, let alone visit it for other people's opinions on movies.  Personally, I think it is sad anyone needs validation from a site like that to like or dislike a movie.   But I'm also the one who thinks its sad when comic collectors buy books they otherwise wouldn't care about just because it becomes "hot".

This movie flew past all of this year's superhero in only its 12th day of release.  It will most likely be the #1 movie after this coming weekend and should be very close to $1 billion internationally.  Sometime next week, it will pass Rogue One domestically/internationally.  After that, it will be closing in on Marvel's The Avengers domestic total.