B-Smooth

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Whatever. Just an example. Post 1990 it's more about things other than comics than it is about comics. Video games, mtg, pokemon,w hatever.

Pogs! They'll make a comeback. You'll see!

So... forget comparisons to action 1 and asm 14 covers. Apples and kumquats. 93-00 mtg art... don't see any reason it shouldn't blow the doors off 93-00 comic art, generally speaking.

That thought crossed my mind actually. As comics were shrinking into the nothingness of the mid-late 90s post-Image, CCGs Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh were all the rage. Worldwide too. I'd have to imagine that's where more nostalgia lies 'per capita' from twenty years ago. How the spending power plays out today and tomorrow, well possibly a different matter. (It's not all about quantity, but also 'quality' of collectors!) It's not always enough that somebody loved something as a kid to want to spend a sizeable portion of their adult 'wealth' on getting it back again. Who's chasing and paying up for vintage hacky-sacks and Slinkies? Oh probably somebody (I'm scared to Google them actually!), but I hope my point is made too

Legitimate sales of Pokemon cards. I keep track. This is in the last 2 years, and is not the OA. Pikachu illustrator: $40,000. Tropical battle 1999 winner: 15,000, pre-release raichu: $11,000.

And then there are several error cards that sold in five figures. Just for knowledge. It's still going, like Magic, and has the same world wide following. It's just good to know things for future comparisons.

As a final thought - I don't know anybody in America that reads tin tin but there is apparently a big enough global following that Herge tin tin oa regularly exceeds a million dollars.

 

We're comparing mtg to tintin? They have absolutely nothing in common.

 

Other than, I'm guessing the fact that you don't know anything about either? (Which is fine of course but then what's the point of even bringing it up).

 

Okay, so you know American superheroes, great. That isn't super relevant to anything either. Yeah they have a track record but these comparisons of a genre that started in the 1930s to a genre that started in the early 90s are tired and go nowhere.

 

How about some more direct comparisons? As in 1993 and compared to 1993 and later? I've done enough digging now and seen enough auction results to conclude that (as a generalization) early mtg art is generally worth more than 1990s comic covers. Anything from alpha is worth five figures, and the better ones would go into five figures (how far is open for debate, but it would seem pretty far, and if the lotus card can trade for 50-60k I assure you the black lotus art would be into six figures without a single question. You can speculate on the rest but for that art for that card, guaranteed. Name me the 1993 of later comic cover that's worth six figures?

 

Or, let's talk about how many people play magic versus read new American comics? I don't know the answer but I suspect it's either the same or more on the mtg side.

 

So... forget comparisons to action 1 and asm 14 covers. Apples and kumquats. 93-00 mtg art... don't see any reason it shouldn't blow the doors off 93-00 comic art, generally speaking. And it's already doing so.

 

That fact alone should give you pause when you think about future prospects.

If I had numerous millions, that lotus would be hanging on my wall like Han in carbonite, in Jabba's palace. There you have it. Someone who would gladly pay 6 figures for it.

I'll help you out Bill and post a couple more nice alpha

Better! You other two need a snickers. I'm just enjoying the base set cards, OA. And I'm no player, either. I don't hang out with the geekers at the mall playing Friday night magic. Just someone who collected the cards for years. I have no horse in the race, as I've long ago sold my mint alpha set, 5 Lotuses, 8 of the moxes each, and the other power 9 cards in multiples. All in alpha/beta. As I type this, looking back, like most of the other collectibles I've had, I have the sorrow of having sold them.

Who owns the moxes, by the way? I saw the pearl up for sale, and I think they wanted something like 100K? I'd take the ruby if I had the choice.

Just playin'. I just need to re-read all that 8 times.

Peter,

 

The average person wouldn't even understand why a 9.8 goes for more than a vg; why would they get, without explanations, why say the cover to ASM 14 would be enormous money if it existed.

 

The average person who is a non collector is going to think any amount that is outside of what their own household budget could afford - for most people, a few thousand - would be crazy, and that goes for whatever collectible we are discussing.

 

These people wouldn't understand why a panel goes for less than a cover or why Lassie #1 (I remember that show!) in 9.6 is worth less than avengers 1 in 9.6 (didn't they just come out last year in that movie?) so they sure as heck wouldn't understand the values we attach to them

 

Hi Bronty,

 

I agree with your point about the "average person" that is a non-collector will not understand these prices at all. But that isn't really surprising because the "average person" that is a non-collector would probably not understand how prices operate for ANY art in the art market - including masterpieces from the Renaissance to more modern art like WArhol or pollock. As well as comic art and MTG. The average person doesn't know how price discovery works for any art.

 

My point was directed more towards the transition of these pieces of art from niche collectibles into "art" that maintains its price appreciation over the long run, say 100 years from now. In order for somebody to have the confidence to pay millions of dollars for a piece of art it will be required to show that the franchise can withstand the true test of time and remain relevant and significant.

I see comic characters as already having shown their resilience and popularity over almost 100 years in our culture while MTG art as still young and needing more time to make the transition.

 

To be clear, this is not a slam in MTG potential. Nor do I want to wade into the debate into "what is art ". My point was merely to draw the distinction between comic oa and MTG art and where price points are in each cycle right now.

I see what you're saying. The average person will see the historical significance of Spider-Man, Batman, etc, whereas Magic doesn't have that kind of following. A lot of it depends on Magic's staying power. Whether or not it branches out into something bigger. But it is big enough for a lot of these earlier pieces to bring six figures based on how many fans there are now, in the present day. Nobody can predict the future,( that I'm aware of) and in 10 years, or 100 years Magic could fade into obscurity, and the prices will drop permanently. Money aside, I'd rather have any alpha cards OA then any Picasso, Monet, Pollock, etc. To each their own.

^ exactly.

 

And dungeon yeah timetwister would be my choice and yeah one guy has them all

Where does he live?

Timetwister

 

Dude, are you $&@#%£€ kidding me? I am envious on a scale that has yet to be created. One guy owns all of those? If I had to pick one of them to own, I'd take the time twister, only because it's power 9. For the art, I'd take the chaos orb. Great memories of them all.

Reminds me of the days when I bought a stack of about 100 each of the '85 topps Olympic cards... yes McGwire.. For about .25 each.

Oh yeah that Olympics McGwire really was something else. Never was able to get a good deal on those, never had a one of them. But for several years that and the 84 Donruss Mattingly were all I could think about, even more than comics. (Well, almost anyway!) Pretty stupid in hindsight. And maybe something people should think about around here in the context of those endless DKRIII covers, the thread of which may hit 1,000 pages at some point

I made a boatload of money off of those in '87, when he was ROY. I had a few left, and one was a PSA 10 I sold for 5K when he broke the HR record. Good thing I dumped it when I did.

And the mattingly? That was our '52 Mantle. When I first got one, I was the cats meow of the 'hood. And I loathe the Yankees. But Mattingly was the exception. Too bad his back crapped out on him, because he was a shoe-in for the hall before that. Just for nostalgia sake, I'm thinking of getting a pSA 10. They're still pricey, though.

...kind of like modern sports cards and the whole 'hot rookie' syndrome.

1988 Donruss Gregg Jefferies

http://blog.squeezeplaycards.com/?p=6

 

Man, my '88 Fleer Glossy Gregg Jefferies was my prize possession in third grade.

The Donruss Jefferies was a high number card. Without getting deep into it, on the (clear) cello packs you could see the back of the last card in the pack. From there you could use the formula (yup) to identify if a Jefferies was in there or not. That was my first big sweep as a speculator. At one point I had hundreds of Jefferies at pennies each that I got $8-$15/ea for swapping with other collectors and wholesaling to card shops. Some of the swaps I remember were three loose Jefferies for sealed rack packs with a single Jefferies on the top (showing). Those I got $50 for from dealers at card shows. Dealt maybe twenty of those over the course of a year. It was really good while it lasted and (luckily) I was dodging and weaving enough that when the dust settled I only ended up holding six (three empty pocket on a nine pocket sleeve!) Still have them...a cheap and wonderful reminder of those days. From there I went into comics (somehow I figured out cards were dead before it actually happened!) with Death of Superman baggeds, McSpidey #1 golds, cases of Spawn #1, Youngblood #1, Next Men #1, Bloodshot #1, etc etc. Made back my money many times and some I still have, sealed Diamond cases...all in storage....ooooh imagine all the 9.8 and 10.0 'keys' lurking the darkness. Scarcity. Hmmm. It's all bs. All of it. No different than that Donruss Jefferies.

Other than Strasburg?, and Harper, I can't think of a more hyped player than Jefferies was. His cards were gold, and money in the bank at the time. Reminds me of the days when I bought a stack of about 100 each of the '85 topps Olympic cards... yes McGwire.. For about .25 each.

For Dungeon:

 

here's that necro that went for 35k

 

 

Wow! I'm flabbergasted. NOT because it's a "work of art", which collectors outside of Mtg wouldn't really appreciate, but as a fan of the game since I opened packs of alpha in '93. To me, that is Necropotence.. a card that ruled the scene in the dark days of Magic in '97. And that's what I believe Dan is getting at with the early cards. The artists got paid krapp, and didn't have the rights to their work. Why create an artistic masterpiece in that case? It was work. And Tedin in particular, stood out among the rest. If money weren't an issue, I'd rather have the original Juzam, Orb, time twister, mana vault, than the cover of AF15. That's how much the game meant to me. The nostalgia of the early cards can't compare with the latest cards, regardless of the "quality" of the work. And as Magic continues to roll along *world wide*, the art of say Alpha- Urza's Destiny will command higher and higher prices. An artistically simple card like Birds of Paradise will some day fetch six figures. I call it! Why? Because it was one of the most used cards in the history of the game. And as far as I'm concerned, getting the Lotus at under 100K will be looked at as a steal in the future, based on what it meant to the game. I'll mark this for future reference.

Slow ride..

Unless it's having sex with them, not watching their TV show. That's different.

Worse punishment... 2 hard strikes with a hammer to the hand, or 10 straight days of Gilmore girls, with 20 minutes of sleep allowed per day?

Sounds like a personal problem.

One of many.

Open... sarsaparilla...?

Iggity agitty oop.

I ❤️ To break dance.

Bravo Dungeon! I wasn't aware a 9.9 existed. That is one truly impressive book.

Yeah, just the one. Knowing how tough it is to get 9.9's, its age, and the major condition issues that plague the book, I'm surprised there is one, too. I have it on the wall like Jabba had frozen Han.

Masticore, Serra Avatar, birds of paradise, psycatog, darksteel colossus. Only a small sampling of the OA that'll be huge. I'm not in the loop, so I'm just talking as a big fan of the game.

Gee whiz. I can't help but feel these are the highest prices they will ever sell for. But that's stupid thinking, I know.

 

My guess?

 

Some will look expensive in time, and some will look cheap. Depending mostly on whether the card is used in regular rotation by players for many years, or whether it fizzles out quickly.

 

A piece bought for 10k now that's for a killer card will look cheap in time, a piece bought for 10k now where the card is yesterday's news in six months will look expensive.

 

I forgot in this discussion that I have a friend on another website that was a pro tour player during the early years, so he still has close connections to some big players/collectors, and he mentioned his buddy bought necropotence for 35k cash.

 

So, whoever bought that for a couple grand or whatever when it was new did awesome. But if they spent that same money on a card art for a card that doesn't do much in the game itself, or that quickly became obsolete, they probably did creppy.

 

Its more or less about how much 'mindshare' the particular card has, to use a cheesy term.

 

That card ruled the scene back in the day. As well as being a stunning piece in my eyes. Necropotence. 35K will be thought of as relatively cheap in the future. The game is still a monster after 22 years, and is big in a vast array of countries. I could see rich Japanese, German, and French collectors buy these just because of the popularity of the better cards.

PSA 10 and BGS 9.5 alpha/beta Magic cards are easily topping 4 figures. The 9.5 Lotus should gather 5 figures, if it already hasn't? Dan is correct, there is a big future for the OA of these cards.

Any of the Moxes, Juzam Djinn, and most certainly the Black Lotus would fetch six figures without question, in my mind.

 

Well considering Daniel has stated he sold Juzam Djinn for 20K in the last few years I'd find tht doubtful. Also considering I recently saw an ad for his site listing that Juzam sale as a major highlight sale along with the recent relaunch of his site I find these "reported sales" highly questionable...

 

Ehh I dunno. I know we've had this debate privately and what you are saying is certainly possible - I acknowledged the source in the OP. But if I was relaunching my website I might look at timing my announcements that way without any malicious intent, as well.

 

If new art can crack five figures, first set, (legitimately acquired - not stolen) art for big cards at 50k+ doesn't seem so unrealistic. The game is pretty popular worldwide and there are very few originals that would check all those boxes.

 

That Juzam sale was several years ago as I recall. If he's having to use that as a recent announcment if anything that says to me he's not making up the sales, but they aren't flying off the shelves at high prices either (wouldn't expect them to anyways).

I'd pay more than $20K for it, if I had it. The Juzam, while an outdated card, was the face of the game for a long time. And the chaos orb is also a great piece. All of Tedin's work was the best MTG ever had.

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