The-Collector

OK, here's what's ridiculous about this whole thread. The topic was "What is your Favorite Art,Drawing or story by Rob Liefeld?" It wasn't a thread about "who don't you like" or "what makes good art" or any of the many places most of the vitriol would fit in. It was an honest question that has now had a small handful of posts related to the topic and about 15 pages of trolls that come out of the woodwork to mock someone they don't like. Yeah, I'm an unabashed fan of the work Liefeld did when I was a kid. It was great, especially when you have the perspective to remember how formulaic and identical most comics were back then. I suspect none of you know the guy, I suspect none of you follow his work, and I'm almost certain none of you have done anything with your lives worthy of this soapbox you're preaching from. If you're John Byrne or Sal Buscema or Jack Kirby and know what it's like to actually produce comics for 25 years, sure, your opinion would be interesting to hear. But I doubt any of you have produced even a single comic in your life. I don't go jumping on a thread for an artist I don't like just to mock him and his fans. It's juvenile. Some of us actually wanted to have a chat about Liefeld art and what we enjoyed. Instead we have the comic book equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church picketing out front.. I don't really see much difference between most of these posts and the same things I see from those vilifying gays and minorities and women. People hiding behind masks and mocking someone to satisfy their own small egos:) I understand your frustration and sorry if I took things off topic. If i had to pick a piece it would be the cover to Cable and Deadpool 1. Not because I in anyway think it is great art but because I bought it off the stands as a kid (I still have it) and 7 year old me thought it was awesome.

Well, since this thread immediately devolved into a bunch of sheep baah-ing the same tired, old criticisms and showing no appreciation or interest in actually discussing art, I'll actually answer the topic itself. I think this is his best piece ever: I wont pick apart the posing and anatomy but for me this type of work is still disappointing. It is a clutter of bodies with little to no thought about composition so that the viewer is overwhelmed. This technique seduces the art naive but when you compare it to the balanced chaos of other artist like Geof Darrow you can see he makes up for a lack of technical skill with an abundance of pockets, awkward poses and superfluous weapons.

Not a single grade higher than expected. CGC are tight!

I dislike all of his art equally. just because it is different does not preclude it from being mess. But each to their own.

Replace? How about just ending it after Wolverine 3... Unless they're gonna do a Wolverine vs Hulk movie I'm kinda burned out. Old man logan is Wolverine vs many Hulks. I am excited for this prospect. I completely agree. I would love to see a blood thirsy, berserker raged Wolverine. I really like what Bat in the Sun did here with the mask and fangs... Regardless, Jackman did a phenomenal job playing Wolverine. I agree.

Good luck. See this thread which demonstrates just how elusive 9.9s are. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5889377&fpart=1

Great pickups. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a 9.9.

Love that book bro. That is a sweet GA cap! +1 Love the sun back ground very Ukiyo-e

A centimillionaire with a demonstrated interest in comics could become enamored with OA and throw themselves into it. However, it's extremely unlikely that they will arrive on the scene and immediately shell out $500K-$1 million for something that they don't have a firm grasp of value on and where that kind of value has no previous track record. It is orders of magnitude more likely that they will dip a toe in and take some time before setting record prices (if they ever get to that point). Like I said, nobody wants to look like a fool. That's what I mean when I say they have to gain confidence and experience to get to playing at that level - this has proven to be empirically true 100% of the time in the OA market. I do not know the specifics about WSR's background and so can't comment on it. I suspect that he's someone who had some prior history with comics, though, if only reading them. Otherwise, I'm not sure how or why one gets to collecting top-Census slabs and posting on the CGC Boards or even finds out about this side of the hobby. However, there are always exceptions that prove the rule as well (no need to elaborate on his specifics, as it's not really germane to the discussion). Unless I specifically dictate that I am metaphysically certain, most of the time I am speaking in terms of calculated probability, not absolute certainty (even if some people here have gotten the wrong impression). Yeah i think that is the problem we are having qualitative arguments about quantitative probabilities. We disagree about the likelihood but both agree it is a possibility I think we can call that consensus/a successful discussion. Fair enough, but Gene does have a point in that OA is a trickier animal. Someone who gets interested out of the blue can just look up prices in GPA and feel secure that they are getting their money's worth. When you start from scratch in OA it simply takes quite a bit of time before you can build up the confidence in your internal valuations. You aren't just going to swing for the fences like that. Being a newbie in a world of one-of-a-kinds with valuation factors you don't understand is a little intimidating at first. You're far more likely to be worried about overpaying due to your ignorance than you are to start throwing money around like its candy. Its actually once you are into it and have a little (but not yet a lot) of knowledge that you're more likely to overspend a bit, because your confidence has grown and you might think you know more than you do (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing). And despite what the Justin Bieber-type characters would have us believe, most people with money have that money because they don't make a habit of throwing it at stuff blindly. Yeah the majority are wise, but there is no shortage of new and old money who like to thrown their cash away on ugly half million dollar cars and beluga caviar.

I agree on your knowledge regrading prices and current power players. But I have to disagree pretty strongly with this statement. I see no reason why a very wealthy individual with even only a passing interest wouldn't spend 500k on something they thought was cool. Especially when as you have shown OA is so difficult to price and the uninitiated (myself included) can easily way overvalue pieces after perusing past auction results. How many times has a wealthy outsider with no or only a passing interest spent $500K on American comic book art at auction? The answer is: never. I'm going to play the odds and say it's not going to happen this time around. Am I 100% certain? No, but with a track record of 100%, I'd say it's a pretty good bet and that only someone with a firm grasp of comics history and this piece's place within it, is confident in the OA market and where it might be going and has the interest and resources is going to be walking away with this piece. Everybody has read stories about wealthy individuals blowing big money on stupid things. Because we are comic and OA collectors, we think, "well, why not on comics/OA?", because that's what most of us would do if we fell into a hundred million bucks. And, of course, the answer is that people who fall into money or earn big money not only have their own set of existing interests, but the world is their oyster at that point and they have a limitless array of venues to spend their money. Comics will pass through a minuscule portion of these peoples' minds. Comic art even less. Not to mention, let's face it - when you hear about people blowing stupid amounts of money on frivolous things on a whim, it's usually on blinged out jewelry. Supercars. Blinged-out supercars. Hiring Katy Perry to sing at their daughter's bat mitzvah. Things that may be egregiously priced, but that they can understand. And that have price tags. Who goes to auctions of things they have no real interest in/no real experience dealing with and decides to drop half a stick on something without an established track record of being worth that much? Virtually no one. That's just not how the world works. I'm not saying that's a metaphysical absolute. I am saying that the odds are remote enough to not even be worth considering. I didn't want to post anything further in this thread, but, since I have, my previous point regarding coin collectors was obviously a generalization and not 100% true in all cases. It was never meant to do anything other than to point out the obvious differences between the coin hobby (a "status" hobby as someone described) and the comics/comic art hobby, which (along with baseball cards, toys, etc.) is largely fueled by nostalgia and the narrative of recapturing youth, and to point out that trying to disprove my point about the latter by pointing out anything to do with the former made little sense. I agree that it is remote. I have two issues with your statement. I dispute that a life long passion is a necessary condition for a large purchase in any field, which you have now redacted/rephrased to make your intended point clear. Secondly I would say your wording is still too strong when you say "the odds are remote enough to not even be worth considering". The mega rich and famous abound with anecdotes of profligate purchases. I see no reason why a 100 millionaire with a demonstrated interest in comics couldn't suddenly become enamored with a certain field and throw themselves into it. As a comic example WallStreetRebel built a top ranking X-Men set (second or third from memory?) in a very short period of time after not collecting at all.

Jonathan Ross is a lifelong comic collector and major player in the OA market. What people don't get is that people don't become rich and famous and then decide to collect the best of the best comic books and OA. If you weren't already hardcore into it earlier, like Ross, it is very unlikely you'll get into it when you have limitless other options at your disposal. Eminem buys comics and likes John Romita. That doesn't really tell me anything - is he a big player in comics? He's definitely not a big player in OA (if at all). Even if he thought Ross' OA was cool and that he'd like to pick something up, it'd be extremely unlikely that he'd be so enamored of the Hulk #180 page that he'd be willing to shell out half a million bucks, let alone a million, to buy it without really knowing the market. Like I said - you need a lifelong passion, the means/resources, the knowledge, the connections and time to build up your confidence and courage to make a big purchase in a market you don't know anything about. I think there is virtually zero chance that the Hulk #180 page will be headed to Detroit anytime soon. I agree on your knowledge regrading prices and current power players. But I have to disagree pretty strongly with this statement. I see no reason why a very wealthy individual with even only a passing interest wouldn't spend 500k on something they thought was cool. Especially when as you have shown OA is so difficult to price and the uninitiated (myself included) can easily way overvalue pieces after perusing past auction results.

It's difficult to enter into this work because of how the aura of the sexy fish threatens to penetrate the exploration of montage elements. Yes, I concur. Me and the girlfriend tried to paint a Rothko rip off, it is harder than you think. But surely it isn't 72.8 million dollars hard.

The "more informed opinion" has stated, multiple times, that "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened" with regards to events in the comics industry, among other misstatements. You know...despite the reality of History departments in schools all over the world. I wasn't referring specifically to delekkerste. I just read through the thread and changed my mind.

The short answer is that, you may not understand it, but people with real money do. Do you not like/appreciate the art or is it just the price that you find egregious? I'll be the first to agree that $140 million for almost anything is nutty, but the art itself is beyond reproach. It's mesmerizing, innovative, iconic and historically significant in a way that the 1st appearance of Wolverine could never be - centuries of painting technique and composition turned on its head. As for the price, when you have billionaires competing for so little of the great stuff, sometimes you need to get to $140 million to achieve price discrimination. Like I said, I think paying that much for a painting is pretty nuts. But it would be less nuts to me than seeing that Hulk #180 page sell for 7-figures. Both. I've never understood "art" that simply looks like someone threw some paint at a canvas. I mean, I could create something like that but I couldn't draw Wolverine You say it's mesmerizing, innovative, and iconic. I say any old hack could do the same thing! The fact that "people with real money" understand the art makes the whole thing even more laughable to me. And that's not meant as a jab at you; I've heard that argument before. I don't have a ton of money myself so I think it's silly to spend 10s of thousands on a comicbook. Now if I had money to burn I'm sure I'd feel different. However, I don't care how much money I had, I wouldn't spend a dime on some of the art that's sold for millions. 72.8 million - Really? Looks like an ice cream sandwich. Anyhow, the money thing aside, I just don't get the appeal of Pollock's work. If it had no real monetary value, and was just a painting on a wall, I'd have that monstrosity removed from my house. I respect all peoples opinions, but it's just my opinion that my 5 year old son with a couple of buckets of paint and a brush could make the same thing. haha. this always makes me laugh. I once got a job from a guy wanting to sell knock off Leroy Nieman style posters. I figured (like you did) that its all drips and splashes that look like sports figures, but not real painting like I was doing. after an entire day trying, and getting nowhere, I gave up and never called the guy back. Same idea with Pollack. When you stand there and take in it, you see the layering, and the depth, and you see that the paint while being "splattered" which anyone of us can do, was CAREFULLY splattered, spaced out beautifully, allowing the different colors to work with each other. Closest description I can think of would be looking at winter tree branches of many layers of trees overlapping, forming a mesmerizingly perfect latticework. anyway, as Gene says, the prices they get are ridiculous except viewed thru the prism of guy with 1000x that much money fighting over bragging rights for owning whats out there that the other guys covet too. Im not a huge Pollack fan, and for many years agreed that it was silly if not simple stuff. But one day by chance I was in front of one and I suddenly got it. My eyes were darting all around the canvas and having fun soaking it in. and seriously, YOUR KID COULD NEVER PAINT IT. He could paint HIS work 1000x times better than Pollack could paint your kids work, though. So thats something to be proud of! I agree standing in front of a Pollock is entirely different to viewing pictures. I may have made a 1million plus statement re the hulk 180 page. In light of more informed opinions I officially retract that piece of hyperbole.

Was hoping for more 9.8s but hey what can you do.

Jon you have such great taste WTOTF 2 is one of my favorites.

.....and the market has long ago decided which "appearance" is the more meaningful (significant) and valuable one. -J. Didn't OSPG and uniformed noobs who liked the cover determine that? Popular opinion is hardly the arbiter of fact. If that were so Obama would be a Muslim and the earth would have been created in 6 days.

Ditto.

I think we have shown KingKoa is mistaken. However convincing him that he is wrong is something that might never be achieved. I think we would be wise get this thread back on track. Anyone know the loaction of this piece? Sold in 2009 on heritage. Some beautiful Elias art:

Oh man. I think that's bad form for an artist to buy his own piece at a benefit auction... I remember it selling for under 5k but I couldn't get set up in time. It's one of my favorite pieces by either artist. One of the best ink jobs Todd ever did, IMO. Really? He bid the highest. If he didn't bid the beneficiary's of the auction would have received less money. I have zero problem with what he did. I respect your opinion but I think If you are donating an item for auction I think it's bad form to "win" it. I would disagree strongly. I can not see how that is bad form. Can you explain why it is inappropriate?

I would say speculation Confirmation of Apocalypse means Sinister is highly likely.

I hate hype.

3.5 months. I don't know if that is good or bad... It went pretty quickly for me.

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