Malacoda

I just tried looking for this. Even searching for Battle AND 70 AND 9d AND Atlas, I still got almost 9000 hits. It does get a mention in your journal, but the story of your Quest for Battle is not there.

Happy Birthday, mate.

Moments like that are brilliant, although being less systematic and more easily seduced than you, when I say 'if my theory is correct, then wherever there is X there should always be Y and never be Z' and it comes true, I tend to take my theory as proven, which is not necessarily always true. I am often seduced by the power of prediction. When I finally get to U.S.T. (Unified Stamp Theory....yup, it has a name, an acronym, and by the time I finally post it, probably merchandise) I predicted something about World Distributors which I finally found to be absolutely true and exactly when I predicted to be, but it still turned out not to be the correct explanation (don't get excited, it's not the explanation of the stamps, it's the explanation of why Marvel left T&P....though when is more salient than why).

Interesting one. According to Mike, Battle #70, the last issue of the last ever Atlas war title (before Patches O'Fury hoves over the horizon) has a release date of 29th January 1960, but a cover date of June 1960. This is over 5 months of sales lead time, which seems incredibly high....though it's the same lead time as preceding issues. You'd expect, based on the 3 month sales lead time, for it to be released in March. Heritage Auctions have got one of these up for grabs. Check out the extremely clear distribution date.

It's also kind of a misnomer given that the ball doesn't actually make contact with any feet for 99% of the game.

I love the 'did you mean....?' The part it's got a problem with is the 'ye' instead of you, the rest is fine.

Well, the first goal was off a free kick, the second off a corner, the third wasn't actually a goal and the fourth was an accident. But it was still our greatest performance ever. And the Germans were all doped up. The Beautiful Game.

You can't still have been delivering papers at 3 in the afternoon? Wye Aye Man, ye must have bin reet paggered. ( I have no idea what that means).

And, when they do remember things really distinctly, did they actually understand it in the first place? Things that are important differences to us are insignificant to them and were unimportant at the time. My experience is that when you do track someone down, what he remembers (from 60 years ago), is the girl he fancied in accounts, the pastries from the bakery next door and how everyone met up at the pub to watch the 66 cup final.

For sure. I love Charlton. From the jailhouse handshake to the everything-under-one-roof approach to their mob connections, they are the true mavericks of the comic world. Unfortunately, I have no relation to them as I owned, I think, literally 3 Charlton comics. It's also much harder to get info about them (at least pertaining to distribution) because they outright owned Capital. I'm sure the info is out there, but you don't stumble across it the same way you do with IND & Curtis. Your Charlton thread is one of the few other threads I have read, and, as Eric says, it's treat to read your research even if one is not interested in Charlton itself because you've researched it so meticulously. It's kind of the model for how to do things right (though few people would have the tenacity to hunt down the necessary examples given the painstaking work over many years). As you say, no one cares about Charlton, but by the same token, it must be nice to have a playground that's all your own. I'm constantly banjaxed in trying to research distribution because there just seems to be nowhere to look. Recently, I wrote to the Audit Bureau of Circulations for any info about Thorpe & Porter, World Distributors, Comag, Moore Harness, GSP, Surridge Dawson, John Menzies, WH Smith and others and they replied: I am afraid this is not something we can help with as we do not retain this kind of information for such a long time. Also, I am not sure who might be able to you with this. This is literally like getting to Oz and finding out that it doesn't matter whether the Wizard will help you or not because there is no wizard. So I do share your pain. My hat is off to you, as ever.

Ah. I was wondering how the Hell Miss Bikini Luv got to number 625. It was because it started at number 500 and had 16 other titles in between. I like the DC style chequerboard as well, but I think there's too many brown tones in this (and not enough dinosaurs) for it to have passed Irwin's marketability test.

Indeed, I think I'm assuming that if you were trying to price a comic up, you wouldn't do it by putting a fainter, new 1/- stamp over a much heavier older 10d stamp because it would look like the 10d was the newer stamp, but I'm probably imparting more thought to it than whoever actually did the stamping.

I agree and I think other great stuff is going on on this thread which it would be a pity to back-burner. I've barely scratched the surface of most of the other threads on the CGC so I've no idea, but I feel like this board is building a coherent body of data & evidence as well as well-considered theories based on your research and vital contributions from those who were there. Are there other threads this....well, cool, for want of a better word? (Which reminds me, I was deeply immersed in 1971 before I distracted myself with subscriptions. Must get back to that).

Is it just me or does this really look like the 10d was stamped over the shilling, not vice versa?

Agree, though I think the ones that have the 1/- stamp rather than the 10d probably rocked up later. I can't imagine that a distributor in 1966 got hold of a crate of 6 month old distressed inventory and thought 'haha, these will claim a 20% premium. Even though the racks are full of new comics at 10d, kids will definitely shell out a shilling for these old ones'. It seems more likely to me that they were stamped 1/- at a point when comics cost 1/-. Despite that being the case, it seems more likely to me that they turned up en masse as a bunch of forgotten men rather than in any kind of sequence. I think Albert has said he remembers then turning up suddenly 6 months after the event. This is obviously a contradiction as they (probably) can't have turned up all together yet been distributed 6 months apart. At times I feel like we're just retroactively superimposing order on the chaos. And, to your point, neither anecdotal evidence nor well formed theories are the same as demonstrating what happened, when and why. And by whom. Note to self: in true Claremontian style, this is a note to remind future me that when I finally publish the U.S.T. ( Unified Stamp Theory....yup, it has a name, an acronym and, by the time I get there, probably merchandise) to include the possibility that the non-branded shilling stamps might even have been T&P.

I'd be fascinated to know how many comics there are with these stamps outside the 2nd hiatus. I still think these 2nd hiatus comics were taken out of the PV runs by Marvel as T&P grew delinquent in their payments in Q1 and Q2 of 1966. I could never quite follow how, if T&P went bankrupt and various clients never got paid (including the Golds) how come there was no actual break in distribution? The answer is that it was never the comic distribution piece that went bankrupt. The receivers determined that part of the company to be viable, transferred into over to one of the subsidiary companies and sold it to IND (probably because IND was its biggest creditor, so it also moved a lot of debt off the books as well as potentially generating some capital). We know from the extracts of Ralph Gold's book that @Albert Tatlock supplied, that Gold were actively targeting T&P business so buying up some of the latecoming leftovers cheaply that were supposed to be T&P stock would have been very attractive to them. That said, we know from the same source that they always picked up remaindered comics months out of date and flogged them on, so maybe it wasn't that targeted at all. Either way, I think they're still the lead contenders. The fact that the shilling stamps seem to date from a year later indicates that some of these sat around for a long time. Exactly as you say, we need to jointly collect up as many examples of the two kinds and all other kinds as we can, but I think the ones that fall outside the 2nd hiatus may be more telling than the ones that fall in it.

It would probably make a nice break for them rather than endlessly appraising Hulk 181, WBN 32, Star Wars 1, ASM 129 and all the other Bronzers that are insanely valuable but not actually rare. I wonder if winning these competitions is a good audition for getting a job as an appraiser? Not that you'd necessarily want to do that. I imagine the first 10 times you handle Hulk 1 or Showcase 4 it's a buzz, but goes a bit smooth after that and it's just hours of poring over microns of staple rust. I tell you what though, being the Galactus of Grading will be bloody handy for selling stuff on ebay. It's the ultimate fly swatter really, isn't it? (I was trying to find a panel to go with that that is just Starhawk saying "accept the word of one who knows" but I couldn't find one).

Dude! Many congratulations. Given the number of people on here that is no small achievement. You must have caned hundreds of people who actually do this for a living. I'm particularly impressed as I find the rules of grading self-contradictory and hard to apply, so being told by the pros that you're the champ is as cool as it gets.

Well now I just look silly.

Very interesting, though I don't think you can count La-la-la-la Look In as it had brand recognition for every strip, weekly TV advertising and a seemingly endless stream of free gifts, stickers and posters. I'd be expecting it to have very atypical numbers. If you can endure it, someone has unaccountably collected a full five minutes of ads.

It's a thing of rare beauty. Comics like this are just screaming at us to unravel all the mysteries, aren't they? Looking at it, you'd imagine that the stamps on the back were put on as a last resort after the front had descended into a hot mess. Maybe not. The intriguing thing is that it has Miller prices at both 9d and 6d. If this came out in the States on Oct 1960, did the rounds, came back as a return, went to Fred, at this point it either failed to sell and got returned to Miller by mistake, or more likely sold for 9d by Fred, and then got exchanged at Millers, was resold by Miller for 9d (cheeky) and then exchanged back and sold again for sixpence by Miller (maybe more than once), then where does the stamp on the back fit in? (Assuming that 1761 means July 1st 1961). It also might have been a remainder in the States not a return. I think ACG probably had a rather unique deal with IND. I had to look this up again as I can never keep it straight in my head - largely because I can't quite grok the incestuousness of it: ACG was founded by Ben Sangor. Sangor's daughter Jacquelyn was married to Ned Pines who owned Standard Comics. Sangor thus created the Sangor Shop, a comics packaging company (amazingly, though based in NY, they used artists in California) for Ned Pines company, but then founded his own comic company, ACG, in 1943. Sangor knew Harry Donenfeld purportedly because they played gin rummy together, although given the connections the two of them built up during the 1930’s, one wonders exactly where and with whom they were playing. Donenfeld capitalised and part owned ACG. IND distributed for them. Donenfeld had two children, Irwin and Sonia. Sonia Donenfeld, known as ‘Peaches’ (whether this was due to her fondness for soft fruit or the shapeliness of her posterior goes unrecorded) married a man named Fred Iger. Iger was co-owner of ACG with Sangor (Donenfeld was a silent partner, though if one were interested in silence, Harry Donenfeld would seem an unlikely source). Iger also became co-owner of NPP (so DC and IND) from 1948 to 1961. Donenfeld was the boss of DC and IND along with Jack Liebowitz. Liebowitz was the son of an old client (Julius Liebowitz knew Harry through their union activities in the ladies undergarment industry. No, really). Harry's son, who became part owner, editor & VP was Irwin Donenfeld (insert ape waving chequered flag here). Irwin was married to Arlene Levy from 1946 -1961. He then married Alice Greenbaum who was a friend of Bob Kane's. He divorced her and married Carole Schapp, who was Jack Liebowitz's niece. Liebowitz's younger daughter later married a George Levy, but I don't know if he was related to Arlene. Fred Iger, part owner of DC, IND and ACG was first married to Sonia Donenfeld (Irwin’s sister) and then to Arlene Levy (Irwin’s wife) ( "Irwin, I've got some bad news....and some worse news"). Iger’s association with DC ended in 1961 when the company went public, which was also the same year he divorced Harry’s daughter and married his daughter-in-law. ACG got out of the comics business in 1967 when Kinney bought out IND. Whoever did the seating chart for the DC annual picnic must have had their work cut out for them.

And do we even believe it? I bet if the wind changed and one of these epithets was suddenly perceived as sexist / racist / homophobic / anti-semitic / islamophobic / transphobic or similar, it would be gone in a heartbeat. Surely referring to nappies is ageist and promotes discrimination against babies? Also, given that we're all probably one hard sneeze away from adult nappies, it might actually be close to the bone.

Wow, that's a Nov 63 cover date, presumably rocked up in Leicester some time in early 64, got stamped 9d and by the time it went round for another go, prices had gone up to 10d (Nov 64). That one spent over a year looking for a good home. I'm surprised it didn't sell though, I mean, it has the obligatory giant ape and he's fighting pterodactyls as well as warplanes. What more did people want for ninepence?

I think you're right. These bad boys definitely exist for Xmen 25.... And, of course.... Note the date on this one. Mike reckons these hit the stands on August 2nd, so this one went on a fortnight's summer holiday before coming back to work.

Hi Robot. I note your slight doubts regarding the matter of ballast. I've looked at Luke Smith's blog and he once again propagates the legend without offering any proof. I have looked into this several times over the years and have found nothing whatsoever to substantiate the myth (I think that I have even joined in discussions on these pages about such). In ancient times stones were used and at least since the age of steam mechanical pumps have been in use to on/off load water to be used as the stabilising medium in ships. Until such times as irrefutable proof is presented I shall remain a sceptic, (and, it would seem, a pompous windbag). I think with regard to ballast, personally I'd start with Steve's Golden Rules (it ‘doesn’t exist until it exists’ and you can ‘never say never’). In between, I think it's a balance of probabilities. I don't think we're ever going to find the letter that says 'Dear Mr. Ship's Captain, please find enclosed 10 tons of comics to use as ballast on your ship. You must, of course, dispose of these on arrival as it's illegal to sell them in the UK. Definitely don't flog them to the traders gathered at the docks, nudge nudge, wink wink'. During WW2, the lend lease ships returned across the Atlantic carrying rubble from bombed out UK buildings for use in American construction. After the war, as the Robot says, I'd imagine they tried everything to sail profitable cargo both ways. After the war, we know that publication returns were used for all kinds of things; anything that would generate more profit than pulping. The original magazines with which Fred Thorpe started T&P were famously the colour supplements of newspapers, but the returned newspapers he bought by the ton were actually being shipped to India to use as wrapping paper. That's a long way to send a copy of Good Housekeeping. I have no problem believing comics, along with magazines, newspapers etc, were used as ballast across the Atlantic. More likely, in the days of breakbulk cargo, the paper wasn't actually ballast as such but was used as dunnage or makeweights to keep the ship on an even keel (literally), keep everything packed tight, create enough weight to keep the ship low enough in the water and to balance out the heavier cargo and lighter cargo. I don't think we will ever find absolute proof, other than anecdotal evidence, that comics were used as ballast because putting them ashore to be sold was illegal due to pre 59 customs laws, but also dumping them overboard within 25 nautical miles of shore was illegal. That being the case, with UK readers clamouring for US pulps, magazines and comics and enterprising individuals waiting at the docks with open arms, it seems very unlikely to me that none of this material ever found its way ashore. As soon as the import ban lifted in 59, Fred immediately began to import returned comics at super cheap (below wholesale) prices. Maybe he knew this was the golden opportunity precisely because it was already going on with the ballast comics. He just went legit with it. But I'm just speculating.