Malacoda

Not that we were in much doubt about this 13/4/71 line in the sand, but I was just meandering through my archive when I noticed what I think must be the very last T&P straggler (famous last words, obviously), Special Marvel Edition 3 cover dated September 1971, so well inside World territory. If anything was going to jeopardise the 13/4 date, it would be this. But no. Cover date Sept 1971, release date.....13/4/71. Feast your eyes, Gentlemen. Until someone proves otherwise (about 5 seconds after I post this), I think this is chronologically, the last ever T&P stamped Marvel comic.

Fully agree, but I think the fact that you can get it down to 16% virtually without trying (precisely without years of effort), indicates there was a pretty strong supply. For some issues, there are more CS's than PV's around now and we know that the PV's were some kind of large fixed number (we don't know what, and presumably it changed with demand, but it would have been a fixed and scheduled order based on demand in the UK market). For there to be more CS copies left now, there would have to be a significant volume of them.

Yes, I was wondering if the sticker was an Aus or Can re-price. All of the Aus DC comics I've seen just seem to sit with the US price on them, so I have no idea how the re-pricing was done. ( I mean actual DC, not the Murray repackages).

A question for DC collectors: Anecdotally, I always hear that DC's importation in the UK was far more scattergun than Marvel : made up of returns, inconsistent in which titles, what volumes and where distributed, with a brief flirtation with PV's but pretty much all inkstamped. How random was it? With regard to the Marvel PV/CS duality after the 3rd hiatus, I had always thought of this as the period when the PV's came back. In fact, with some help from Gary & Marwood, I've so far ascertained that only 16% of issues were purely PV's (84% being CS+PV, CS or ND) and that's after only three sweeps of the T'internet. I find another couple more CS's every time I search, so the 16% keeps going down. CS&PV 210 CS only 161 ND 55 PV only 80 I suspect there may be a CS for every PV. If this is the case, it would certainly strengthen the idea that these are not random (i.e. not returns) but that distribution was a fully dual system after April 1969. If the Marvel CS's were returns, it raises another very interesting question. I've never been able to ascertain if Marvel's distribution to T&P was via IND or a separate deal between Marvel and T&P. Various factors make me suspect it was separate deal. After July 66 it sort of becomes irrelevant because IND owned T&P, then when you get into the dual pricing time (April 69 - July 71) or more specifically November 69 - July 71, after Curtis replace IND, it becomes interesting again, because it's potentially 2 separate distribution deals. The PV's were printed by Sparta and shipped to Newark, then sailed to the UK. Was the US leg of this done by Curtis? By IND in the period up to Oct 69? Or by World Color in Sparta? Or by a separate contractor as part of the container package? The reason it becomes significant is that if the CS's during this period actually were returns, then they were being distributed by Curtis to US regional & local wholesalers and then the returns were being gathered up and shipped separately to T&P in the UK, that means there were in fact 2 wholly separate distribution and shipping processes going on for the PV's and CS's. If the CS's are not returns, as I suspect, and were shipped alongside the PV's, it raises the question of why they weren't just printed as PV's. Sparta easily had the resources to do as much or as little of this as Marvel wanted.

What were the Canadian & Aus prices at this point? Maybe the cents aren't US cents?

Well, it's a dialogue. When I posted those Hulks late night, it occurred to me to go back the next day and check the stamp changeover dates, but it was only when you said that the change to 5p indicated they likely came later that I remembered the surprising difference between when the CS's went decimal and when the PV's did, which meant (1) the change didn't prove they came later and (2) if the change of the stamps on the issues that had PV's exactly synchronised with the change on the issues that only had CS's, it would prove the opposite. A dialectic! Having said that, the stamps for that month are a mess. Marvel’s Greatest Comics & Kazar were both 25c giants, so stamps. No idea if we can read anything into that. Outlaw Kid and Western Gunfighters were both number 1’s and I haven’t seen copies of either. Captain America is, as always, flying the flag for this one. Also Sgt Fury 80 (Sept) is stamped 5p. OK, here’s another speculation about why the stamping changed so far in advance of decimalisation: one of the things I believe is that there were very few returns of Marvel comics to T&P. There were comparatively few returns in the States, and in the UK American comics were more glamorous and sought after, and followed 15 years where any American magazine was like gold dust. What returns there were, I believe were re-circulated some months later, particularly to seaside and holiday towns at knock down prices on a no-return basis. Various sources back this up. Now, if you knew decimalisation was coming in a few months’ time, and you were in the habit of recirculating your returned issues months later or the following summer, what would you do? You’d start putting decimal stamps on them as early as possible, wouldn’t you?

Indeed. Between 9 months from US release dates when the PV's were minted and 6 months from cover date / UK on sale, so definitely not imported after decimalisation and very very definitely not after the PV's went decimal, unless something super-bonkers was happening. There's another point I forgot to add which we've mentioned before: these PV/CS dual issues go right the way up to cover date July 1971, when T&P handed over to World. Now, I'm sure there were some already-distributed leftover T&P issues, both CS and PV, hanging around on spinner racks in the first couple of months of World's reign, but do we think that US returns of comics were rocking up in their thousands or tens of thousands at T&P 3 or 4 months after the handover?

I don't think this is so. I think the opposite is borne out. And actually decimalisation gives us a weirdly specific line in the sand. Stamps and PV's went decimal at wildly different times. Officially decimalisation was Valentines day 1971. Cover stamps went decimal over the space of 2 months of issues, 6 months in advance. July 70 cover date everything was shillings. Aug cover date, stamps were split (5p and 1 shilling on each stamp). Sept 70 cover date, everything was 5p. PV’s remained in shillings to October 71 and went decimal in the GS month of Nov 71, 9 months after decimalisation. So there are 14 months where a shilling PV being re-stamped with 5p doesn’t prove anything because the stamps were all 5p anyway. If you look at the cover dates of the issues after the 3rd hiatus: Hulk cents issues are stamped 1/- up to 129 (July 70). #130 is stamped 5p (Aug 70). FF cents issues are stamped 1/- up to 100 (July 70). 101 is stamped 5p (Aug 70). You get the idea. The issues which are PV AND CS are stamped with exactly the same values they would have been stamped with had the CS come in the same month as the PV. I guess maybe the absence of a split price in Aug means something, but then the fact that these issues arrived as PV first and then the stamped copies were done later answers that? Maybe, maybe not. This doesn’t mean the returns idea is necessarily wrong. The stamped ones could be returns (due to the gap between release dates and cover dates in the States vs cover date release in the UK) but surely the fact that the stamps on these changed at the exact same time as for CS only issues strongly indicates otherwise? For example, if Hulk 129 was printed with 1/- for the UK and 15c for the US, then the US copies went off, spent 2 or 3 months in circulation before being returned to Marvel, then shipped to the UK and re-stamped by T&P, why would they have a 1/- stamp on them when T&P had gone over to decimal stamping 2 months before? It’s still possible, depending on how long they spent on the shelves in the US and how fast they got hauled back to Marvel and re-shipped, but then how do you explain that these issues changed from the same cover date as the ones that were shipped as cents / cover stamp issues in the first place? There’s no gap between the change for cover stamp issues which had no PV’s (normal circulated issues) and the cover stamps which did have PV’s which we’re postulating were returns that rocked up months later. I’m sure that when Ethel chucked her pre-decimal stamps in the bin in August 1970, that was that. A comic could not acquire a 1/- stamp 3 months later. So what was going on? Returns really feels like the right answer, but the stamps say otherwise.

This is my current favourite. I don't have the latest Overstreet, but I feel this maybe slightly above book value. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333969529065?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

This intrigued me. I thought it was one of the T&P 128 page giants from 1949 to 1953, but I thought these were all Weird Tales and SF & more like magazines than comics. Then I realised that the genius selling it has put 1950 in the title, but the CGC clearly says 1958, so these are the comics T&P were printing from US matrices while waiting for the import ban to end. This is a kind of proto-double-double. And despite being published, not imported, by T&P, it retains the Atlas logo from the original cover which cunningly makes it look even more like the (forbidden fruit) US mags. Anyone who winces at 'UK Edition' rather than 'UK variant' should look away now. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353454014576?hash=item524b804070:g:~tsAAOSw5P9gdGud

I'm never sure where we are on the ballast theory. Depending on which accounts you read, it dates back to before the war. After the war, comics and books which were scheduled to be pulped were sent to the UK as ballast deliberately to circumvent the ban on US imports. They were used on the strict understanding they would be destroyed on arrival (and full knowledge that they would not be). This carries on into the 60's where cargo ships are still rocking up to traditional docks and being unloaded by stevedores and longshoremen. However, Felixstowe container port was opened in 67 and by the 70's comics were arriving in container ships, but container ships still need ballast, so that could still tie up, even though the import ban ended in 1959. However, ballast tanks sit below the water and are typically flooded with sea water. Ballast for transatlantic voyages typically comprised rocks and stone. During WW2 they carried rubble from bomb damage which was used for construction in the US. I can see why you would use paper - it probably makes fantastic ballast as it soaks up the water, so it can actually be made heavier after loading. But how did anything that was made of paper survive being used as ballast after 3 weeks under Atlantic seawater? Unless it was meticulously wrapped and protected, which would defeat the object. I mean, clearly it did, but how? Is this because comics were loaded as counterweights in cargo holds, rather than ballast, and therefore not well packed and therefore suffered water damage? That works for me, but that's not ballast.

Many thanks for all the effort (and to everyone else...especially the Robot for that Conan). I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that odd issues, old issues and extra issues were put in as makeweights. I haven't checked it yet, but I have a pet theory that during the World years (when it was supposedly much more tightly organised) there were no two months exactly the same. I will try to substantiate this at some point. Unless it begins to interfere with my will to live. The interesting question is: how did they get there? One can only assume that if Marvel were sending a load of odds-and-sods across the Atlantic, they would still have sent them to T&P (and if they were makeweights, they'd definitely have been bound for Leicester) so why did they not acquire T&P stamps? If they were brought over by dealers, they'd have the dealers stamps or have been sold bagged and boarded, but I think in 69-71, you are literally just talking about Dark They Were. Two theories: one that I think Albert posited, that canny newsagents, retailers or wholesalers were getting people to bring back an extra suitcase from their holidays. Another would be that these came over long after their cover dates, and with World having no means of date stamping, they were passed on to newsagents who put their own labels on (or just wrote on the covers, as we've seen). These would clearly not be on SOR, so it would explain why some of these were found on shelves years later.

OK, so I've been through the rest of 71 (July - Dec) for Thor, Hulk, FF, ASM, Avengers, DD, Iron Man, Subby, Xmen, Where Monsters Dwell, Amazing Adventures & Astonishing Tales and not found one single CS. Contrast this with pre July (pre 13/4/71 release dates) and you can immediately find anything up to a dozen copies without even trying. Everything indicates this is handover point from T&P to World and the end of CS/PV duality and nothing counter-indicates it. @Garystar Hi Gary, when you did this, did you find examples for every issue of every title for the last 28 months of T&P? I've only taken one swing at it so far, and immediately found examples for most of them (e.g. out of 27 possible Thors, I found 21 immediately, out of 28 possible Hulks I found 21). I wonder if you found the whole lot? The reason I'm asking is (stay with me here, everyone): We're conjecturing that Marvel started exporting their US newsstand returns to the UK at this point. We know from history that DC always did this, but it resulted in patchy, non-sequential imports with lots of missing issues. We also know that Marvel had far fewer returns than DC ( 30% vs 50%) so you would expect the remains of Marvel returns to be even patchier. However, it looks to me like a decently conducted search might yield a full table i.e. examples of virtually every issue of every title. Could this perhaps indicate that they weren't returns, but rather something else? If they were returns, and the consequence of this was a full set of cents variants every single month (from 30% returns), what the Hell were DC playing at all those years?

You can kind of see how he thinks he can get away with it. It has colour bleed from the front, but bindery defects are allowed. It has a big bend right through but colour isn't broken, so it's not a crease. There's a slight discolouration to the interior pages (esp. first page top right) but I still wouldn't be surprised to see this described as off white. It doesn't sit perfectly flat, not just because of the bend, it looks raised on the spine side too. It's lost some gloss, but not much. Any of those defects, I think you could get away with, but all together, it's too much, especially the bend. I would think you could buy a better NM- for not much more.

My fault. Mind you, if you can find this one, I will be properly impressed. #14 I'm pretty sure is ND. Literally no one thinks it was distributed, but #13 allegedly came in. And many thanks for looking for the items on that list. Those are, I believe, the full list of all ND SA Marvels so I can really a bang a lid shut when I get to them. ( I feel the Bronze Age will be less easy to corral).

Ooops sorry Albert. I meant....

I like the way Captain Plunder is a 17th century buccaneer, yet his men are wearing jeans, T shirts and windbreakers. The dress code on that ship needs a serious overhaul. Mind you, they are carrying guns from the 26th century and being watched by a sabre tooth from the Pleistocene epoch, so maybe the woollen breeches aren't the real issue. DD's looking better and better.

Superb. So the dual PV/CS issues don't really give us a problem, as they are basically distributed as normal and then distributed some more later. This little beauty, however, was non distributed and then presumably some johnny-come-latelies turned up, in unknown quantities but through normal distribution channels. Tremendous. In my spreadsheets, I have four levels of 'distributedness' but this means.....I have to add a new colour to my table. Good God. And other people think they've got problems!

Got it, thanks. And Ethel landed the stamp right on the smokey wisp - the only bit of white on the cover.

Beautiful. No corner blunting. The very beginnings of what will one day be chipping on the back cover. But not today. All the more amazing that it's a squarebound - those things were not built to last.

Yeah, leave this one with me. I would be surprised if absolutely zero turned up. There were bound to be loads that were seized at T&P that were eventually returned by the Police and ended up in places like Gary's bucket-and-spade shop (so pre-July but rocked up years later) but, yes, if you look before July 71 you immediately see loads & loads of both PV's and CS's and after July, the CS's completely fall off a cliff.

Glenn Miller (not that one) tells the story that there are thousands of comics he processed as a distributor which he then ended up handling a second time working for a retailer and then a third time......." It was in fact bought by Chris and Maurice and ended up being part of the stock for Comics and C.D’s, the comic shop I worked in on and off from around 1992 to 1994.In fact that Neptune stock haunts me even today when I help Chris and Maurice out at marts when I sort out comics that I’ve probably been sorting out the same comic for nearly 25 years…" And he even posts a picture of the very shed you postulate, Albert....

I didn't find any for Subby, Iron Man, FF, Daredevil or Avengers after July.

Yup and your April 13th date is looking pretty good. Shaken but not stirred. Subby #39 was on sale 6/4/71 yet has no stamps, and there definitely were Subby stamps for 37 & 38, but that's the only upset so far.

And there it is. Those new ones were all from around Q1 1970, so whatever these batches were, they were long-stashed leftovers of some description. There are many stories like this and they always come from holiday & seaside towns. And we know from Alan Class, Dez Skinn and everyone else that sending the leftovers to holiday resorts in subsequent summers is exactly what they used to do.