Malacoda

Yup, and that's not even in increments of full weeks. Even clearer example.

What was the US returns process for DC?

Great spot. I need to pay more attention to release dates. It's unusual that they're so key because distribution issues are usually across several months or between 2 months or at the smallest increment affect a single month, but this one pretty clearly comes down to weeks.

Hmmmmm. I think it might be possible to prove that the dock strikes had nothing to do with the missing 66'ers. And, I've got a bold new theory to take it's place. You said you wanted something to read, but... nothing could have prepare you for this! (Am I successfully building tension up to almost unbearable levels?)

You've been on Doc Doom's time platform there, Albert. You’re right about Oadby, Thurmaston & London, but none of those were concurrent. They moved into the purpose built warehouse in Oadby in about 1950, but that burnt down in about 1962, that’s when they moved to Thurmaston, also in Leicester. Then they went bankrupt in 1966 and were bought out by IND, which is when they moved to the first office in London. Then Kinney bought DC and IND in 67, then they bought Warner in 69 and rolled all the companies into Warner communications. Then Warner merged its distribution arm with Columbia and the whole lot moved again to Warner House in Soho in 1971, which is where the remaining imprints (T&P, BrownWatson, Williams & GBD) stayed until 1979 when it effectively disappeared. In support of your argument for their ubiquity, they opened a new location in Sevenoaks in Kent in 1948 ( I attribute that year based on the fact that it was at Knole Park and their Knole Park Press imprint started in 1948), which was solely a printworks, I believe, and by the period we’re talking about (59 onwards), they had warehouses in Doncaster, Nottingham & Ilkeston. So yes, they were a many tentacled beast, but not in Oadby, Thurmaston & London at the same time.

Hi Albert You’ve pasted some fabulous curios on here. I love this one. Two guys who often seem like peas in a pod to me are Martin Goodman and Fred Thorpe. I often wonder if they ever actually spoke, given that they worked together for only 4 years. One page Fred took from the Goodman playbook was the labyrinth of companies he created. This one, Jenson, was primarily a comic book imprint (Airboy, Eerie, Frogman, Jesse James, Kid Colt Outlaw) so it’s fascinating to see this cover which credits Jenson as the printers, Hermitage as the publishers and T&P as the distributors, when actually they’re all Fred. Pay no attention to man behind the curtain!

Sure thing. I wasn't sure if I should pace it a bit and give some of the others a chance to weigh in? Where are you going tomorrow? Somewhere nice?

No idea, mate. I have a horrible feeling that you're about to send me 100 scans that show that the stickers were all different shapes, sizes and colours. But I can only assume that even if there is variation, the edict must have come from World.....unless the prices are all different too? If every wholesaler and newsagent in the land spontaneously decided to change the price of their new comics and all changed them to the unprecedented price of 8p, that would be something for us to talk about.

Are you quite sure you want to do this? Right. OK. Let’s start at the very beginning (that’s a very good place to start…). What actually happened to pricing that month? Everything moved to 52 page giant sized comics that cost 25c in the US. In the UK: Amazing Adventures, Conan, FF & Where Monsters Dwell were 6p ASM, Avengers, DD, Hulk, Subby & Thor were 8p. Astonishing Tales, Cap, Iron Man were non-distributed Xmen had already gone into GS cover stamped reprints, so they’re no help. So I don’t think there’s a pattern there, I think it was just a massive cokc up. I think Marvel screwed it up. I mean, let’s be honest they screwed the whole 52 page, 25c thing up completely (unless it was actually a ploy to make DC commit financial suicide) and got out of it literally as fast as possible (one issue later). So how surprised are you that they also cocked up the UK pricing bit? Here’s my guess: Marvel comics cost 1 shilling and that was 5 new pence, so that would be the new price of a Marvel comic. However, Marvel’s UK price had been at 1 shilling since 1967. I suspect this is what retailers call critical price focus (i.e. why you charge 9.99 for something rather than 10.00). A shilling was a firmly set value in people’s minds. A price threshold. More than a shilling was more than a shilling. As Hancock said ‘break into half a crown and there’s nothing left’. I think Marvel were oblivious to decimalisation and they got paid whatever wholesale price they charged in cents relative to the cents cover price. They just put whatever 'nonsense' numbers T&P asked for as the price. The comics were non-returnable so it’s was T&P’s call. So I imagine the reason that price had stayed at one shilling for so long was because T&P knew that more-than-a-shilling was a barrier to purchase (much like the horror when Marvel wanted to increase the US price from 10c to 12c). So I think decimalisation was the prime moment to move the price up from a shilling (5 new pence) to six new pence. In theory, this was a big increase as an old penny was 1/240th of a pound and a new penny was 1/100th of a pound. But no one understood the new money or had a feel for it. No one had any psychological issues around six new pence in the way that they had around a shilling. So I think T&P would have pushed for the post-decimal price to be 6 new p. However, in the interim. (1) Marvel failed entirely to get any of their mess together and carried on printing the old money prices (2) they changed UK distributor (3) T&P were out, so they weren’t going to push for new pricing and they could ink stamp old money into new anyway. ( Not sure why they did 5p stamps, I suspect it was because 5p was a shilling and manually stamping 6p look like chicanery, maybe? ). It may also be the case that Marvel had been planning the 52 pagers for a while and didn’t want to confuse the market with multiple price changes. So…..for those first months that World took over, I don’t think it mattered that comics were still priced in shillings. Masses of stuff was still priced in old money and people still thought entirely in old money (my French boss told me in 2014 that he still calculated euros back into francs in his head before it had any meaning to him). When the euro was introduced and it necessitated some procedure changes here, it came to light that Nat West had never actually changed their systems from pounds, shillings and pence for 30 years. They just ignored the shillings. It then came to light again ten years later during a systems failure that they still hadn’t changed it. And probably still haven’t. So the idea that newsagents were seeing a shilling and taking 5p doesn’t phase me. More interesting is the price itself. Based on the exchange rate in 1971, the price should have been at least 10p which was actually the price T&P were selling the big X men reprints for (although I don’t know when they started arriving. Clearly nowhere near the cover dates), and that would have reflected the double sized comics ( two shillings). It would have actually been quite neat – twice the old size, twice the old price. But they decided to go with 8p. And then they printed a bunch at 6p. I think that 6p was what was going to be the new agreed post-decimal price. Then they moved to giant size, which would more logically have cost 10p, but I think T&P and/or World told them that UK kids just didn’t get that much pocket money (the Beano cost 4p, MWOM launched the following year at 5p) so they settled on 8p. This was fantastically miscommunicated both internally, where 4 titles were printed at 6p and to World Distributors, who I think were expecting 6p as the new agreed post-decimal price and were only 3 months into their new relationship with Marvel, so didn’t realise these things were double sized. Also, astonishing Tales and Iron Man had both been distributed to the UK – Iron Man since issue 1 – and suddenly disappeared at exactly this point. For AT it was literally this one issue that didn’t come. I think World made a rational assumption in the absence of any other facts, and put the price to what they expected it to be and what 4 of the titles were at. And then rushed out and bought some stickers. But why someone didn’t just make a bloody phone call is beyond me.

Agree, I think the release dates are the key. Another thing that you would think would be helpful in navigating the madness is the change to decimalisation. You would think it indicates something relevant about the timing that the UKPV's which were printed for IM 39, Hulk 141 and ASM 98 were all in shillings, but the stamped copies are in new pence. But it doesn't. The UKPV's all stayed in old money until the 52 page issues in November 1971 (and then that all went wrong as well...6p / 8p stickers etc). Those have release dates of August, a full 6 months after decimalisation happened (and 3.5 years after new decimal currency came into circulation, so it wasn't like they didn't have any notice. But then, look at Brexit). It's astonishing that Marvel transferred their UK distribution to a company that could only distribute printed pence copies right at the exact moment that the currency changed and they still screwed it up. The one moment that T&P's ability to re-stamp everything manually would have been a Godsend is the precise moment they got shot of them. Nice one. Nonetheless, I think we agree July 71 is the last month of T&P and either July or August is the first month of World, probably with some overlap. Same thing as when Curtis replaced Independent in 1969.

Indeed, we are the Mr. & Mrs. Jack Spratt of comic collecting. Of course, the best approach is both. To that end, can I pick up another point with everyone. In several places, Sparta is referred to as the printer for DC and Marvel. This is true for DC, but up to Jan 1968, Marvels were printed by Eastern Color in Waterbury Connecticut. Funnily enough, if you look at the indicas for Feb 68 onwards, they’ve made a really clumsy job of replacing the (longer) Eastern address with the (shorter) Sparta address. An elephant that sometimes wanders into the room at this point is the idea that Eastern only printed the covers. I think this originates because of the whole Danny Dupcak / Eastern file copies thing, where those clearly were only covers, probably originating from 1972 when Eastern did sell many of its comic book file copies and cover proofs. I believe Eastern printed the entire comic. The idea that they printed only the covers and Sparta printed the interiors is bonkers to me. Sparta is over a thousand miles from Waterbury and Eastern practically invented the comic book and were easily capable of printing the whole thing at a competitive price. BTW, I tend to refer to World Color Press as ‘Sparta’ to avoid confusion with World Distributors in Manchester.

I agree. I think the newsagents had little choice about what they got in the 50's and more later on. I think it's also obvious that if a newsagent did want to keep older comics or mags on the rack, the T&P sales rep was hardly going to say no to letting him keep them. Even in the 70's, I used to go to the newsstand (an actual news kiosk) at Twickenham station because they used to keep previous months Marvels long after they'd disappeared elsewhere. Also, literally in sight of that kiosk was another favourite newsagent whom I'm sure used to get the World lucky bags or returns and sell them as much as a year on, cunningly re-priced to catch up with horrendous 1970’s inflation. I bought Astonishing Tales #34 there (cover dated March 1976) off the spinner rack more than a year later, repriced to the then current UK price of 12p. It’s demonstrably more than a year later because comics only went up to 12p in March 1977.

I believe you actually have found it and don’t know it. I think cover dates June and July 1971 are the handover point. World had no process for cover stamping. Comics arrived by container ship to the container port in Felixstowe and were delivered in modular containers, without being offloaded, to the World warehouses, but they were not delivered to the HQ in Lever Road, but rather to the Circulation Dept in the warehouses that were at a separate site. From there, the circulation department checked them off and batched them straight up for delivery. The scenario envisioned for T&P (the room full of Ethels with their ink stamps dreaming of the day RSI lawsuits would become a thing) were a thing in Leicester, but not in Manchester.. The Marvel comics which had been cover stamped for T&P (Captain America, Sgt Fury and Conan) just became non-distributed from July 1971 until they each became a UKPV (Conan for 4 months until Nov 71, Cap for 19 months, Fury for 18). The comics which already had pence variants were the ones which continued to be distributed which I think is strongly indicative of the change from T&P to World. My personal favourite is FF 111 (June 1971) which has both T&P cover stamps and UKPV’s, so you can almost hear the lorries swerving off the A6 and heading for Manchester. Please see below. As a bonus for the stamp collectors among us (you know who you are) here's a couple with another triangle stamp. Do you have July 71 issues (or later) with ink stamps? I don’t think it disproves my June date unless there’s a load of them .

You know that bit at the start of the Three Musketeers where D'Artagnan arrives and, on his first day in Paris, picks a fight with all of the Musketeers...... 1) On page 12 Albert Tatlock tells us his uncle ran a newsagent: “He told me that he sent unsold comics back, and I have been there on more than one occasion when he was bundling up comics and magazines to be collected.” 2) SOR has long been the standard practice for newspapers & periodicals in UK newsagents, once they meet the minimum entry level and credit qualifications. 3) We know that T&P collected returns on DC because of the Double Doubles. 4) We know that T&P were buying comics at a fraction of the retail price. There were obviously a number of other costs involved, but in 1959 the exchange rate was about £1 = $2.81. We know that IND were exporting comics rather than take the 30% to 50% returns and were selling to T&P below wholesale prices. In the 70’s Phil Seuling was buying all his stock for the comic shops at up to 60% discounts, and that wasn’t even distressed inventory, so let’s assume that canny Fred Thorpe got his comics at at least 60% discounts on the cover price. Those 2 facts alone mean Fred was buying comics (in $) for about onepence ha’penny each and they were retailing for ninepence. I speculate that he would happily have a done a sale or return deal to secure the one million comics per month he was shifting from 1957 onwards because he was getting them so cheap, he would have been mad not to. Even if he was taking 50% returns and burning the lot, he’d still be coining it. 5) We know that in the 70’s, World Distributors took returns from all of their newsagents & wholesalers, which to me is at least suggestive that T&P did the same. 6) We know anecdotally that many 60’s and 70’s comic fans reported finding far more availability generally and specifically availability of back issues at seaside towns during the summer. We know that Alan Class collected back in all of his returns so that he could re-distribute the following summer. From 1966, T&P was part of IND, which from 1970 was part of Warner Communications. Warner operated as 5 brands in the UK: adult content under GBD (General Book Distributors), Hardback children’s annuals under Brown Watson, imported US comics (DC, Marvel, Charlton, Dell, Gold Key, Tower, Archie etc) all still used Thorpe & Porter, Williams for titles being co-published with European countries and Top Sellers for everything else. Dez Skinn worked for Williams: “A problem with distributing so many US comics was all the unsold returns piling up. What T&P did, as well as redistribute seaside summer 6d stamped sale copies, was rip off the covers and rebind them into four-issue collections, or Double Double Comics as they were known.” Note the pre-decimal 6d. I think also somewhere here, people made the point about comics being re-stamped with lower prices. Not sure if relevant to this? I believe many newsagents did not exercise their option of sale or return (maybe because they were on a good percentage) and kept the comics in the hope of a few more sales, but I think T&P operated on SOR.

Hard to imagine a more constructive use of one's time.

Just to be clear, this may hold true for the sample period, but we know that there are inkstamps and UKPV's for the same issue in other places. It would be interesting to know what causes this inasmuch as it might offer some clues to other things. One of them, I believe, marks the changeover point between T&P and World. But it's not this one. This is just a random example.

[ahem] getting back on topic.....yes, there's a couple of threads on here discussing the missing corner box, but again, not generating much interest, which means it must be less prevalent that I think it is. Having said that, it's literally IN the Overstreet def. of GD. I mean, surely that must indicate it's a biggie?

Seriously, THAT'S what you took from that photo?

Really? Can't see the attraction myself [bites fist, runs cold shower]

Always late, but worth the wait.

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that you've never seen this. It is so common that it's literally written into the Overstreet definition of GD. 2.0 GOOD (GD): Shows substantial wear; often considered a "reading copy." Cover shows significant wear and may even be detached. Cover reflectivity is low and in some cases completely absent. Book-length creases and dimples may be present. Rounded corners are more common. Moderate soiling, staining, discoloration and foxing may be present. The largest piece allowed missing from the front or back cover is usually a 1/2" triangle or a 1/4" square, although some Silver Age books such as 1960s Marvels have had the price corner box clipped from the top left front cover and may be considered Good if they would otherwise have graded higher. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are common in Silver Age and older books. Spine roll is likely. May have up to a 2" spine split. Staples may be degraded, replaced or missing. Moderate staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is (no worse than) brown but not brittle. Centerfold may be loose or detached. Moderate interior tears may be present. I'm sure it's a US thing with returns, as with torn off covers and the pic Kevin posted, but I've bought numerous copies like this in the UK. Usually if I buy a box of readers or similarly Yikes-conditioned comics, there will be a couple of these walking wounded in there.

Not sure that all stands up. Yes, clearly, there were back office staff. It was only Timely comics that was put on hiatus. Magazine Management and the rest of Goodmans 59 shell companies carried on. Goodman's edict to shut everyone down clearly just referred to whichever creatives would have been covered by the stockpile of finished art. However, if Stan had been amassing, for several years, unusable / sub par material (in quantities enough to make Goodman blow a gasket), then why would that have excluded Patsy and the Westerns or the covers? I haven't re-read my bibles (Howe & Daniels) for a while, but I think everyone was first put on freelance status (due to the market downturn & distribution crisis) and then there was no work for anyone until the fabled cupboard was empty. I think Joe Sinnott was the first person who got any work and that was six months later. One of the freelancers in 56/57 was Jack Kirby (Frank Giacoia having mediated between Jack and Stan/Goodman). He drew 20 stories for Timely in 56/57 but even he was sent packing and got nothing further from them for another year. I think you're right. I think there would have been covers and layouts and stuff to do, but I imagine Goodman covered that from existing resources elsewhere in his labyrinthine empire.

When I were a lad, in the 70's, I used to see (and still do, though far less), Marvel comics with the Ditko box cut out like the Cap pictured. As a nipper, I assumed that this was something like MVS and kids clipped them and sent them somewhere. I thought that because MVS was the only time I had witnessed the horror of someone taking a pair of scissors to a comic. When I came back to collecting in my 40's, I immediately rationalised that it must be the same thing Kevin is highlighting here because the corner not only contains the name & number of the comic (although this one has just the picture removed) but cutting the whole box out effectively makes the comic ungradeable and clearly a return. I don't recall seeing much written about this, but I'm sure someone here has some hard facts? (Vague recollections? Random gossip?)

Again, odd that this is printed with the UK price and then stamped with the same price. Mind you, if I'd been sat at a table for 8 hours stamping comic books for fourpence a year (and had t' pay mine owners t' let us work there), I'd just be stamping anything that came out of the box.

I must express my surprise at your surprise, m’colleague. If we put our Timely 1959 hats on: originally Timely comics were distributed to newsstands by Kable News. In 1951, Goodman started his own distribution company, Atlas, and put the logo on the comics even though Kable continued to distribute until August 1952. Atlas self-distributed until 1956 when Goodman shut it down and threw in with ANC. ANC had been fighting a monopoly indictment since 1952. After only a year, ANC liquidated and Goodman, having completely p’d off the wholesalers and retailers (newsstand vendors made 3c or max 4c on a 10c magazine with ANC) couldn’t reopen his own distribution network and had to throw in with Independent News from October 1957. IND restricted Timely to only 8 titles (later 11). Famously, at the same time Goodman discovered that Stan Lee had been hoarding what he regarded as substandard material to use in-an-emergency and to keep the writers and artists onside. Goodman insisted that Lee commission no further work from any writers or artists until the backlog was used (he didn’t care about the quality) and for his second time in Timely, Lee had to fire all the staff, leaving Stan as the sole employee. On top of this, the US comics market had collapsed post Wertham/Senate hearings/CCA and many publishers had got out altogether. From 1957, Timely was one employee operating out of a disused elevator (I seem to recall?) printing a cupboard full of not-good-enough aged stories. Timely Comics was as close to non-existence as it’s possible to get in 1958/59. In 1958, Jack Kirby (King of Diplomacy) said that he came back to Marvel to find them carrying the furniture out and Stan Lee crying in a corner. Lee himself said 'I don't know why Goodman kept me on. I guess he just felt that if there was any chance at all he wouldn't give up the comics completely.' Kirby, at this time drawing for 14 hours per day because the page rate was so low, had his first published work in December 1958. So are we really surprised Timely were the last to realise the UK opportunity in 1959? I’m astonished at how fast they got their act together, considering what their act was at this point.