Disturbing Trend

[supapimp]

Motor City Comics: Let me give Motor City this first: they're professional and courteous. However, I took a look at a Batman 232 graded NM 9.4 raw that they wanted $475, if memory serves, for the book. I'm sorry... you want how much for a raw copy? I know the book is hot, and commands it if it's CGC'd, but the book, while sweet, was definitely on the fence.

 

if you think that's bad, you should've seen some of the prices for "raw" books at the wonder-con. A-1 comics out of sacramento had three tables and were selling "raw" books off their "top shelf" for many multiples of guide. granted some of their CGC'd books were the highest graded on eBay, but $500 for a GS spidey #4!?! that fooker better come in a 9.6 or 9.8 for that price for a "raw" book.

[Rip]

I like Brian, and have gotten lots of good deals off of him. But sometimes he gets a little crazy w/books. How many times have we all seen that Bats 237 in VF+ for like what is it.....$175.

[fantastic_four]

FF - posts like these especially when GMan is saying that you two have never done business gives a little more credence to Hammer's argument that the forum always needs someone to pick on . . . .

 

Who said it was about their deals? Gman and Shuley are second only to Greggy and Bug in the number of posts they've taken over with their love-making! Besides, I was being facetious...that's what the is for, watch for smilies, they're meant to indicate tone and the tongue-out is meant to indicate sarcasm.

[fantastic_four]

Look, there's plenty of dealers I like on a personal level like Ted VanLiew of Superworld where I have to be fair and say, sometimes I think the grading is spotty... but here's the difference. Ted's grading has gotten tighter since CGC, he's always friendly concerning disputes on grading, and will work with you on prices. I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm actually willing to eat it a little on price with him, because I never believe that he's being dishonest about what he thinks... but ultimately, I still have to make a decision concerning the book itself and whether I want to pay that price. So... I wanted to be fair here as well, and even with someone I like a lot, also point out that while Ted's grading is a little tighter... the prices on the raw books are really shooting up to points where they're at CGC levels... and I can't say I'm happy with it because I don't feel that there's a justification, just cause it's a dealer I like very much.

 

A lot of board members buy from Ted, but I feel the same way you do...he's a great guy, and he grades on-target about 2/3 of the time. He grades tightly enough to keep me coming back to him though.

[Zanarkand]

I have two general comments about this trend:

 

1) I bull/sell/trade regularly with a local guy who freely admits to me that he overprices. He does it on purpose. He's not trying to cheat anyone and he doesn't overgrade, he just would like to maximize his sales in a way that involves the least amount of work. Since he doesn't want to spend all day making calculations in his head, he usually just puts the next higher guide price on the book and waits to see what happens. So, for example, a $200 Fine book that guides in VF for $325 gets a $300 sticker on it.

I gather from forum comments that this would engender outrage from some. "Where does he get off charging that! It's not even close to Very Fine!!", "50% over guide for a mid-grade book!?!", etc. So don't buy it. He's not twisting your arm. Fact is, dealers who do this stay in business because someone, eventually, will buy it at sticker price. Which leads me to point two.

 

2) It's not like you're buying groceries. You can talk them down.

 

The only true dealer insanity I've ever witnessed was at a store that had acquired a mid grade run of early ASMs. Teens through about 60. All hideously overgraded and hence overpriced. After several months, and several shows, most still were unsold. Clearly, to the rational mind, something is wrong here.

One day I stepped into the store to pick up the new guide, and there was the owner happily raising his prices because the guide listings had gone up.

[blazingbob]

In both cases I would have asked how much admission was to enter the museum because clearly the books were for viewing only.

 

[drbanner]

In both cases I would have asked how much admission was to enter the museum because clearly the books were for viewing only.

 

 

This seems to be the perception of Mark Wilson's prices too, but in his case, they really are museum quality!!

 

Seems to me that a lot of dealers, or more likely collector/dealers, put outrageous prices on books with the attitude of "Every book has a price, and that's my price on this book...if it doesn't sell, no problem as it's part of my collection anyway."

[sfilosa]

I have no problem with a dealer trying to sell their books at a convention for whatever price they want. I don't really care if they overgrade the book.

 

Simply put, I can determine the grade and what is a reasonable price.

 

Now, selling over the internet or catalogs is a different.

 

Simply put, if you overgrade, than you are wasting MY (the customer), time and money. Even if you offer returns, you wasted my shipping cost.

 

 

Lastly, it does bug me when dealers get offend when you try to DEAL with them, or explain that their price / grade seems somewhat unreasonable. The first thing I'm going to do, is compare prices with LOWEST PRICE I believe the book has sold on eBay. That doesn't mean I expect to get the Lowest Price (I might expect to pay more or less), but that will be my point of reference.

 

 

[blazingbob]

I've beaten this to death. Why is ebay the reference? Because a seller needs the money I should sell it for that? I have no cost into the book therefore I don't have to set a reserve? Maybe I'm Showcase New England and I sell books in lots and treat books as batches of peper with the hope that they all sell for more than I paid for them?

 

 

[joe_collector]

Maybe I'm Showcase New England and I sell books in lots and treat books as batches of peper with the hope that they all sell for more than I paid for them?

 

Nope, you individually grade and price them, fill want lists, and get back to eager customers.

[supapimp]

I've beaten this to death. Why is ebay the reference? Because a seller needs the money I should sell it for that? I have no cost into the book therefore I don't have to set a reserve? Maybe I'm Showcase New England and I sell books in lots and treat books as batches of peper with the hope that they all sell for more than I paid for them?

 

 

[sfilosa]

I've beaten this to death. Why is ebay the reference? Because a seller needs the money I should sell it for that? I have no cost into the book therefore I don't have to set a reserve? Maybe I'm Showcase New England and I sell books in lots and treat books as batches of peper with the hope that they all sell for more than I paid for them?

 

eBay (or Heritage) is the REFERENCE, simply because the actual sale is documented (not withstanding possible fake sales).

 

That's like saying, why is the NYSE the market for stocks. Why can't private sales be the market price (and there are private sales). BECAUSE the sales on the NYSE are DOCUMENTED. Doesn't mean tomorrow the price can't be higher or lower, just gives a REFERENCE point.

 

Once again, what I said is eBay is the REFERENCE, and I said that I would start there and might pay more or less.

 

And I also said nothing about what a DEALER or ANYONE should sell a book for.

I believe in the free enterprise system, get as much as you can.

 

I said I have a problem with overgrading when the book is not able to be seen.

 

 

[Foolkiller]

I have two general comments about this trend:

 

1) I bull/sell/trade regularly with a local guy who freely admits to me that he overprices. He does it on purpose. He's not trying to cheat anyone and he doesn't overgrade, he just would like to maximize his sales in a way that involves the least amount of work. Since he doesn't want to spend all day making calculations in his head, he usually just puts the next higher guide price on the book and waits to see what happens. So, for example, a $200 Fine book that guides in VF for $325 gets a $300 sticker on it.

I gather from forum comments that this would engender outrage from some. "Where does he get off charging that! It's not even close to Very Fine!!", "50% over guide for a mid-grade book!?!", etc. So don't buy it. He's not twisting your arm. Fact is, dealers who do this stay in business because someone, eventually, will buy it at sticker price. Which leads me to point two.

 

2) It's not like you're buying groceries. You can talk them down.

 

This to me is an outrageous outlook... value a book at $100 over what guide is. Then wait for someone to buy it. Yes, you can a price a book at whatever you want to and the answer is don't buy it. But if you are paying $100 over guide for a mid grade book, then what I'd like to do is for these same people to give me $200 and I'll get the book below guide and keep the difference. This insane, and if this guy wants to price this way, I would hope and pray he goes out of buisness. The problem with outrageous stickers is that it turns people off from EVEN ASKING IN THE FIRST place.

[sfilosa]

This to me is an outrageous outlook... value a book at $100 over what guide is. Then wait for someone to buy it. Yes, you can a price a book at whatever you want to and the answer is don't buy it. But if you are paying $100 over guide for a mid grade book, then what I'd like to do is for these same people to give me $200 and I'll get the book below guide and keep the difference. This insane, and if this guy wants to price this way, I would hope and pray he goes out of buisness. The problem with outrageous stickers is that it turns people off from EVEN ASKING IN THE FIRST place.

 

I agree and disagree:

 

1) You are correct when you state that seeing outrageous sticker prices, usually turns me off from even discussing the book.

 

2) But, a seller can list (and sell) a book for any price they want. You can't stop them. Just don't buy from them.

 

 

[lighthouse]

Great thread... I didn't read it until now because I just assumed it would be worthless... Clearly I was wrong...

 

I have several thoughts on pricing, some of which are popular, some of which are not. My store was probably the first one in the country to be charging $25 for Ultimate Spidey 1 when it came out. I was also one of the first to drop the price on Spawn 1 to $2 while it still guided at 18... I don't believe in following the price guide. I believe in leading it...

 

I want to have the best inventory I possibly can, at all times. That means I overprice my best inventory and underprice my worst inventory to ensure that my copies of Uncanny 300 will sell as fast or faster than my copies of Spidey 300. In some cases this means I have "museum" prices on the best books in the shop. But it also means I have "flea market" prices on books other shops consider to be quality merchandise.

 

But I can sleep at night without remorse, because my buy prices are always based on my sell prices. If I am charging 5x guide for a book, you better believe I am paying over guide for it. The day I put a $25 price tag on Ult Spidey 1, I put a sign next to it on the wall offering $15 to anyone who wanted to sell me a copy. So my answer to the "that price is too high" crowd is always the same, "sell me yours"... By the same token, when a guy walks into the shop wanting to sell me Spawn 1, I have no qualms about offering $1 for it when it books at $18, because I am selling it for 2...

 

If I get a collection in of high grade Bronze, say a run of Amazing 130-160, all in raw 9.2-9.6, I will price the books so that the best books sell the slowest. The weaker books will be a little cheaper than they might be otherwise, and the best books will be more expensive. I want there to be a strong likelihood that after two shows I still have the best books and the weaker books are gone... "Gee, sorry, that book was the first one to sell" is not a comment I want to be making all day...

 

On the subject of eye appeal in pricing

 

I don't want to be branded a coinee here... but it's not a bad idea to know the markets of other graded collectibles to better understand graded comics.

 

With coins, there are two different prices for any coin. Sight Unseen, and Sight Seen. You can look up most any coin and find a Sight Unseen bid that a dealer will buy. You've got a MS-67 Walker, you can look up the date and see exactly what a dealer will pay for it, sight unseen. Now if the coin has better eye appeal than normal, you may get a MUCH better price from a dealer who has a chance to see it. He may know a customer who likes a certain look to his coins, and if yours matches that he pays a lot more than what the greensheet says...

 

Down the road you will see the same thing with comics. How much will you pay for a 9.4 Marvel Team-Up 1? I bet there are a number of you who have a number in your head already. If it's the "right" 9.4, you would likely pay much more. But even for the "wrong" 9.4 there is a price at which you would snap it up. That's the Sight Unseen price... The "right" 9.2 may sell for more than the "wrong" 9.4. We have all witnessed that, and it's a fact of life with collectibles.

 

Eye appeal is absolutely a factor in pricing. Several folks here spout the "buy the book" mantra. But when it comes down to it, you're buying the label too... There isn't a soul in here who can honestly say they would pay the "right" 9.4 price for a raw 9.4. You would hedge your bet, because the label actually IS important to you. But when choosing between 9.4's, of course you are buying the book. You'll pay more the kind of 9.4 you prefer...

 

Buy the Book AND the Label...

[joe_collector]

Ah, it seems like only yesterday I was being called a Grading Nazi for stating that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade and price...

[DiceX]

Ah, it seems like only yesterday I was being called a Grading Nazi for stating that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade and price...

 

Yes, Joe.

You were right...again.

[joe_collector]

I'm not bragging, since people like myself have been buying like that for years, but I do take a lot of slings and arrows in presenting some of these general market "upcoming trends".

 

I'm not right or wrong, but I can tell you where the market is headed. Been there, done that, in both sportscards and coins.

[lighthouse]

Ah, it seems like only yesterday I was being called a Grading Nazi for stating that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade and price...

 

Just to clarify my own position here... I do not believe that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade except in extreme cases, whether that is extremely high grades or severe production flaws.

 

But I DO agree that eye appeal and production quality are significant factors in pricing.

 

The "right" 9.4 for one collector maybe the "wrong" 9.4 for another. And the pricing will reflect that. Sight Seen and Sight Unseen prices will, and should, be different...

[greggy]

Ah, it seems like only yesterday I was being called a Grading Nazi for stating that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade and price...

 

Just to clarify my own position here... I do not believe that eye appeal and production quality should be factored into the grade except in extreme cases, whether that is extremely high grades or severe production flaws.

 

But I DO agree that eye appeal and production quality are significant factors in pricing.

 

The "right" 9.4 for one collector maybe the "wrong" 9.4 for another. And the pricing will reflect that. Sight Seen and Sight Unseen prices will, and should, be different...