Disturbing Trend

[Foolkiller]

I'm sure this has been mentioned as a part of other threads before, but it's something that I wanted to see if others have noticed or are bothered by at all. It's also something that may be talked to death at times, but I think is very important because it seems to be getting worse and worse:

 

Selling raw high grade books (most often overgraded) for CGC prices.

 

This is becoming a common practice and is forcing me into one of two positions:

1) buying lesser grade books with great eye appeal or 2) buying only CGC graded books for 9.0 and better. I've been leaning more towards #1, but it's actually hard to do, to find those nice FVF to VF books that have defects but still look great. I've managed with some, but not as many as I'd like.

 

Ideally, having prices the same for raw and CGC books isn't a problem. A grade is a grade and if you can tell the difference, then why should it matter? But there's several problems with this: First, a third party has looked at the book for restoration checks. Second, there is at least a standard set for the grade and agree or disagree, at least you can look at the book and make a determination with some standard set. Finally, the overgrading problem.

 

Many dealers, some very well known, overgrade their books, or have begun only cover grading the books (not everyone, and the dealers I shop with are generally ones I trust). I don't expect every book to be gone over meticulously, that's too much to expect given volume, but I do ask that the books not be a full grade off... which is going on now it seems. Also, when books were overgraded, the price hike wasn't as drastic as it is now. There are books out there clearly not 9.4s being priced as if they are. I've gone to several conventions over the summer season, local and more regional shows, and looked through many dealer's bins... and I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. The high grade books priced outrageously. When I've asked about this, I've been faced with the idea that CGC prices fetch around this, so the price should be the same or at least similar, notwithstanding the fact that none of the above conditions (concerning what you get with a CGC book) exist in that book. This keeps getting me more and more upset and it limits the dealers I'll even speak with.

 

Okay, now, you want to say a raw 9.4, strictly graded, or even slightly off, should get the same price... maybe I buy it. But raw 9.0s and 8.5s? Come on! Why should a raw 9.0 command the same money, when many times, it simply isn't the same grade... or YOU, the consumer, have to take a risk that the book will come back the same from CGC... if that book comes back an 8.5 or 8.0 (no matter what you and the dealer think) you lost a lot of money if you ever want to resell. How can somebody justify buying that book at a CGC level?

 

Now look, I know I don't want to sound like an investor, but there is a decent amount of money spent, and I look at this as shopping for a product. No matter what you want to do with the book, read it, keep it, collect it, resell it, ultimately, the product itself should be what is represented in that grade. It also shouldn't be a gross overpayment. If you buy a bag of chips and it says 16 oz. but you get 13 oz., you got ripped off. Not by much, but it's not what you paid for. If somebody is selling you a 9.0 and you really have an 8.5, it's not what you paid for.

 

Grading is subjective: You bet. I agree. But... that's my whole problem in relation to the escalating prices for raw books. Sure it's subjective... sure CGC isn't the be all and end all... but CGC prices don't mean that you can ask, or should ask I should say, the same price for the book.

 

Maybe I'm losing a little bit of perspective here, and that's why I've posted this. Maybe people can talk more sense into me. But, it's disturbing and it's turning me off with regards to the high end market. I prefer raw books because I want to be able to read it, or really, just look at the inside... the feel and smell of the pages. I like CGC, but this is what I collect. But the risk involved anymore of putting $500 or $1000 into something is just insane, when the book guides for $350... it's too far from what the product is actually worth (at least currently).

 

Ultimately, I've been pleased with my purchases because I'm not paying insane prices for books that look very nice. However, I'm troubled because of what I see out there.

 

Thoughts?

[tpaine74]

Yes, I have seen it more recently also. Sellers claiming a book 9.2, etc. or even suggesting or sometimes putting CGC in the title to attract attention. And commonly the books receive bids equal to a CGC version (usually slightly lower to account for submission and such).

 

Personally, I would not buy such a book unless I saw it in person, or highly trusted the dealer.

 

Are you a condition nut? I ask because I am a moderate one in that I usually stop at 8.5. The vast majority of CGC books in the 7.0-8.5 (and sometimes 9.0) can be had for relatively good deals considering what the ultra high grades fetch.

 

I recently bought a CGC 8.0 TOS #40 for less than 50% of it's NM guide value. If I had the cash, I would gladly pay half NM guide for any such semi-key book in true VF. Since I will never have $12,500 for comiclink's CGC 9.4

[Foolkiller]

I prefer high grade, but I'm not a condition nut... and I'll pay for a raw book at guide if graded well (VF or better)... otherwise, a small discount is necessary below guide to induce me to buy. The problem I have is that I've noticed that when one book's pricing becomes off, it tends to be the case that the same person is forgiving defects in all grades. I prefer high grade raw, but ultimately, it is the appearance of the book itself that motivates me. I won't say that all I collect is high grade... I just want a nice copy of a book I can be happy with, and often times that means high grade.

[BachelorOfComix]

Now THAT was an excellent post that I agree with wholeheartedly. I'm sure we've all experienced or seen what you've stated. What do to? In most cases, do not buy the book. If dealers are sitting on (overpriced, overgraded) comics at CGC price levels they will have to lower their prices eventually. I don't think this raw "cashing in" trend will be long-term as the CGC price correction continues & the fervor for anything slabbed dissipates.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think there are two seperate questions here...

 

(1) Should a dealer ask a similar price for a well-graded book to those commanded by similar CGC slabbed items?

 

(2) Should a dealer ask a similar price for a poorly graded book to those commanded by CGC items in the same alledged grade?

 

If it's looked at that way, I think the answers are simply 'yes' and 'no'. Ultimately, there are some dealers out there who grade to CGC standards (and there are a number who, IMHO, grade more accurately) and they are fully entitled to ask similar prices because, after all, it's the same book and unless you're collecting the plastic, it shouldn't matter.

 

As for the others...vote with your feet. Leave their trash behind gathering dust and hope that at some point, they might invest in a new pair of bifocals, or simply get the cat to do the grading...

[DiceX]

I think there are two seperate questions here...

 

(1) Should a dealer ask a similar price for a well-graded book to those commanded by similar CGC slabbed items?

 

(2) Should a dealer ask a similar price for a poorly graded book to those commanded by CGC items in the same alledged grade?

 

If it's looked at that way, I think the answers are simply 'yes' and 'no'. Ultimately, there are some dealers out there who grade to CGC standards (and there are a number who, IMHO, grade more accurately) and they are fully entitled to ask similar prices because, after all, it's the same book and unless you're collecting the plastic, it shouldn't matter.

 

As for the others...vote with your feet. Leave their trash behind gathering dust and hope that at some point, they might invest in a new pair of bifocals, or simply get the cat to do the grading...

 

No dealer can grade to CGC's standards, because nobody knows what they are.

 

My answer to this is don't buy the book, and tell the dealer why you're not buying the book.

If they want to charge slabbed prices for a book, then they should get it slabbed.

 

I don't mind paying a little more than guide for a very high grade book.

But it's almost always been that way.

Raw books that are Mint condition have always been a little over guide.

But I'm not paying multiples of guide for anything.

[joe_collector]

If dealers are sitting on (overpriced, overgraded) comics at CGC price levels they will have to lower their prices eventually. I don't think this raw "cashing in" trend will be long-term as the CGC price correction continues & the fervor for anything slabbed dissipates.

 

Exactly BoC, all you need is that valuable commodity called PATIENCE.

 

All good things come to those who wait.

[Foolkiller]

I agree with the sentiment that you should leave a book that you are unhappy with the grade and ultimately, if you often feel you are unhappy, no longer shop with that dealer.

 

I also agree that dealers who do grade accurately are more than free to charge what they feel is appropriate or similar to a CGC price... to a certain degree. One of the things you get with the CGC book is a restoration check (and while not perfect, offers a moderate level of protection) that you don't get from a dealer no matter how accurate the grading. Now if you buy the book, it comes back restored, most reputable dealers will take it back... but who wants to deal with that. Ultimately, there is a difference between a raw book grade and a CGC book graded, partially in the guarantee of the book to hold it's value. Even if strictly graded, a NM raw, no matter what you claim in your ad or to another dealer, simply won't fetch what the book will CGC'd. Doesn't it automatically make it a different product you're offering? Of course, the book is worth a certain value, but has the slab actually attached more value to it now because of the certification. I would say yes. Even though raw, and essentially the same thing, you can't really sell it and command the same dollars. Thus, while a true raw NM 9.4 should obviously command above guide... I'm not convinced that it's the same as a slabbed one in the sense of the product and it's ability to be resold. From a pure collector's standpoint you are getting the same thing. In my opinion you're getting something better. But I don't like that dealers are far too often "stretching the grade" to justify heightened prices. That's the real problem I've been noticing, and it's correlating with higher prices. It's getting worse and worse right now, and it impacts a lot of areas of the hobby, and in my mind, the long term value of raw books some people are holding.

[joe_collector]

[No dealer can grade to CGC's standards, because nobody knows what they are.

 

My answer to this is don't buy the book, and tell the dealer why you're not buying the book.

If they want to charge slabbed prices for a book, then they should get it slabbed.

 

Exactly. It all comes down to financial risk. The dealer of raw NM or higher comics at CGC prices, wants the buyer to assume it, rather than take a chance on CGC.

 

As a buyer, try selling that same raw book for anywhere near what you paid...

 

Like others have said, if you want to charge slabbed prices, then slab the darn things. If not, then be prepared for criticism of playing the speculator game without following the rules.

[tpaine74]

I understand what you mean. I don't prefer ultra high grade and have found that on most books solid, true VF is perfect. I will drop nearly full guide for a book I want in such condition with not even thinking twice. I have gone to various shows with substantial cash but come out with very little. Most of the time the condition is just not there, yet they want consistent near CGC value. For example, wanting full CGC prices for a questionable Fine (probably would CGC 5.0-5.5). And if they have do CGC's, the prices just can't compete with ebay.

 

I am not a real condition nut having to have 9.4's and higher and white pages, but I do like a nice looking book. Especially if the spine is nice and the corners are razor sharp!

 

I prefer raw books of course. But with the combination of rampant overgrading, resto worries, and relatively cheap nature of 8.0ish graded books I go for them and get a reader copy.

[fantastic_four]

If we're talking about a dealer or a well-established non-dealer and they are willing to take returns, I don't mind paying multiples for raw if the book is desirable enough. If we're talking about a seller on ebay who mentions nothing about their return policy in their auction descriptions or ME page, provide too-small scans, and/or little or no description of defects, then no way, I assume the book is overgraded by at least 2 to 4 notches and pay accordingly.

 

The exception to that is if the book is worth more than a few hundred bucks. In that case, I ask for a rock-solid guarantee of return due to restoration--including a possible 1 to 2 month wait for CGC verification of restoration. I also attempt to assess why the person might be selling such an expensive book raw...most often, that info is either nonexistant or intedeterminate and I just pass.

[Foolkiller]

Yes, but even with many reputable dealers... have you found that often times, when you inspect the book, you find it's still overgraded? I have been lately. Not in all cases... and I guess my overall point is that inflating prices across the board for raw books is a mistake. A dealer can charge whatever they want for the book, it's their book, but it seems as if there's an expectation that these prices will be paid, and also, I suspect, many people still paying them... which in my mind is a gross mistake.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the ebay sellers, but as I've made the rounds on the conventions to inspect the books, there are big name dealers (and not so big names) that are starting to inflate the prices too far. I guess I'm worried about this as a trend.

[clobberintime]

I don't think that this is a new trend - I think it has been called the "CGC ransom" price for a couple years now! You know - the dealer says "this is a really sweet copy and if cgcd would sell for 10x guide but since it isn't i will give you the bargain price of only 5x guide!" I have had enough books sent to cgc to know that picking CGC 9.4+ books is a tricky, inexact science. I had a batch sent in that I thought were all 9.0/9.2 books and a few came back 8.5s, several 9.0s and one 9.6! And i had wriiten the 9.6 book as a weak 9.0! No one except the cgc employees know how CGC will grade a book and paying many multiples of guide for a book without the plastic is a fool's game. Many famous ebay sellers prey on folks looking for a deal or to get that book cgcd and triple their money. I won't pay multiples for non-cgc books either because the CGC grade is so unpredicatable as anyone can see with price spreads from 9.0 to 9.4 especially when books in those grade ranges often have very minor distinguishing characteristics. There is also the restoration issue as FF pointed out - but that's a whole other topic! If it looks like this or that cgc grade and you could get so much for it cgcd, then get it graded first - it shifts the risk from the seller to the buyer too much when done the other way around.

[fantastic_four]

Yes, but even with many reputable dealers... have you found that often times, when you inspect the book, you find it's still overgraded? I have been lately. Not in all cases... and I guess my overall point is that inflating prices across the board for raw books is a mistake.

 

Yes...but if it's a desirable book...I'm willing to take the risk. I pay multiples for rare/uncommon books...if it's raw, it becomes more of a pain in the butt because you might have to return it, and if it's expensive, restoration becomes a risk, but for many books where restoration is a very low risk, I'm willing to gamble on raw--as long as I've got the safety net of a return. I have decent success by only trusting dealers or sellers who convince me they might be good enough graders to risk it.

 

When buying books in person, it's a lot easier--except for more expensive books where restoration is a risk. I prefer to buy most late Silver and almost all Bronze raw...there are a lot of those I'll gladly pay multiples for if the grade is up to snuff and I don't really care whether it's slabbed or not. I prefer that cheaper books under $200 aren't slabbed because then I can open 'em up, and quite often, get them for lower multiples than I'd have to pay if they were slabbed.

[Aces]

If they want to charge CGC prices they should get them slabbed.

I have to!

Anybody wanna pay me 4-10x guide for some raw NM/NM+ Bronze Marvels I plan to send in in a week or two?

 

Well...?

 

Don't you trust my grading!?

[fantastic_four]

Anybody wanna pay me 4-10x guide for some raw NM/NM+ Bronze Marvels I plan to send in in a week or two?

 

Well...?

 

Don't you trust my grading!?

 

Not yet! Give me a reason to and I might if the books strike my fancy!

[Aces]

Well I get my first books back soon.

 

15 day turn around time for standard...?

 

That should be this coming Friday.

 

I wonder what my grades will be...

[BEAUMONTS]

What you think may be a 9.4 raw may come back something other http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/be/beaumonts/ebay096.jpg

I'm extremely happy with this even though it didn't come back NM " my favourite Hulk Cover" but I also didn't pay NM or a NM multiple. I agree with the disturbing trend in the "multiple" price in raw level. But at the same time, if you do deal with a reputable seller that is also a tight grader then you can "hopefully" by the comics you want at a lower then CGC'd multiple.

[DiceX]

15 day turn around time for standard...?

 

 

[Aces]

How is that Hulk 144 only 8.0!?

 

Something wrong with the back?

 

The front is at least 9.2 (not considering the centering).