Why doesn't CGC employ an authentication service?

[KryptoSpidey]

very funny.....i think you get what i was saying....nm+++ is way easier to type than nm/mint to mint....dont ya think???

 

as for scans....i dont scan books..dont even have a scanner...all my scans are sent to me via cgc imaging department..i only sell cgc books..if i sell.....

[mr_highgrade]

 

[Raphael]

 

 

swwwweeeeetttt boookk!!!!!

[KryptoSpidey]

great lookin book..with an old label...would it have graded higher with out the "defect"??....may have....that book submitted now would have a whole different label..grade..ect......they usually say "name" written ....not stating the specific name.....still a defect.....that book may have graded 9.9....

[mr_highgrade]

I don't think CGC saw it as a defect. When I sent it in I thought it was a 9.8.

[Ebel 1911]

I would guess at some point in the future CGC may look into this. Based on the impression I've gotten from various posts, CGC is doing very good business right now with the Grading and Signature Series business, maybe even stretched thin to meet the current demand.

 

I would assume at this point in their business lifecycle they're still focused on their core business. Eventually when they're looking to expand, authentication is a reasonable avenue to pursue.

[Guest]

No signature authentication service is 100% reliable. The cost involved in obtaining these services on a regular basis would also most likely raise SS service rates. CGC has done the right thing on their stance of only authenticating witnessed books. And keep in mind they would make a lot more money if they included nonwitnessed signatures. The system is solid right now and when you purchase a yellow label book off of Ebay, you know that book carries an authentic signature. Okay, so we have signed and certified books. Certificates don't mean a thing and can be copied or transferred to other books. Plus, where do they draw the line?

I have many signed books before CGC that are authentic. I know this because I witnessed the signings. The fact that they end up in a green label slab does not diminish how special these books are to me. A lot of my books don't qualify or belong in a yellow label slab and I could care less. I love the books and the short talks I had with the creators during the signing. The system is solid so far.

[Mr. Zipper]

Well since they pretty much don't guarantee anything why would they "guarantee" a sig as authentic. They are just opening the door to lawsuits.

 

They could just use a suitable disclaimer like PSA/DNA does. Basically makes them bulletproof.

[Mr. Zipper]

No signature authentication service is 100% reliable. The cost involved in obtaining these services on a regular basis would also most likely raise SS service rates.

 

Correct. Any semi-reliable signature authentication service starts at around $50 a signature.

 

I also collect autographs and am very familiar with the dynamics of that hobby. Right now, forged signatures on comic books are nearly non-existant. Why? There is no money in it. Why fool around with obscure comic figures when they can sell Mickey Mantles and Ronald Reagans for hundreds a pop and can't keep up with demand?

 

Once a company started slabbing and "authenticating" vintage signatures creating increased demand and prices... watch out! The forgers would take notice very quickly.

[Paratrooper]

Here's a recent example of a 9.8 with notation. Book may very well have been a 10.0 in the absence of the signature though. Still only a .2 deduction if that was indeed the case....

 

 

sweet book

[brasseye]

No signature authentication service is 100% reliable. The cost involved in obtaining these services on a regular basis would also most likely raise SS service rates.

 

Correct. Any semi-reliable signature authentication service starts at around $50 a signature.

 

Once a company started slabbing and "authenticating" vintage signatures creating increased demand and prices... watch out! The forgers would take notice very quickly.

 

You would still have 'verified' signatures as they currently are. Authentication would only apply to the unverified, and thus the cost to.

 

And yes, it would be a brave man to scrawl a sig across a high dollar vaue book, in the hopes of raising it's value. And unlike other collector market's, signature books are not 'universally' revered within the hobby. So doing a fake, could actually decrease a potential seller's market. So i think some of the obvious arguments can be dispelled right there.

 

 

[UnboxingTreasures]

Here's a recent example of a 9.8 with notation. Book may very well have been a 10.0 in the absence of the signature though. Still only a .2 deduction if that was indeed the case....

 

 

I thought this was a beautiful cover, so I looked on eBay and didn't find any current or closing auctions for this book.

 

Do you know how rare this copy was?

[OldGuy]

Why run the risk of encapsulating forgeries?

 

They already encapsulate restored comics as unrestored. What do they have to lose?

[He11blazer]

No signature authentication service is 100% reliable. The cost involved in obtaining these services on a regular basis would also most likely raise SS service rates. CGC has done the right thing on their stance of only authenticating witnessed books. And keep in mind they would make a lot more money if they included nonwitnessed signatures. The system is solid right now and when you purchase a yellow label book off of Ebay, you know that book carries an authentic signature. Okay, so we have signed and certified books. Certificates don't mean a thing and can be copied or transferred to other books. Plus, where do they draw the line?

I have many signed books before CGC that are authentic. I know this because I witnessed the signings. The fact that they end up in a green label slab does not diminish how special these books are to me. A lot of my books don't qualify or belong in a yellow label slab and I could care less. I love the books and the short talks I had with the creators during the signing. The system is solid so far.

 

The voice of reason. I agree completely. It's impossible to 100% accurately authenticate signatures. Too easy to forge (relatively easy I mean).

 

The sig series can't be forged. It's great (thumbs u

 

[Transplant]

The sig series can't EASILY be forged. It's great (thumbs u

Fixed your post.

[The Troll King]

Here's a recent example of a 9.8 with notation. Book may very well have been a 10.0 in the absence of the signature though. Still only a .2 deduction if that was indeed the case....

 

 

I thought this was a beautiful cover, so I looked on eBay and didn't find any current or closing auctions for this book.

 

Do you know how rare this copy was?

 

It's not that rare. I have a copy. Saw one at the Dallas Comic Con this past weekend also. Arthur carries around a stack of them to sign and sell as well.

[DrWatson]

The sig series can't EASILY be forged. It's great (thumbs u

Fixed your post.

Yeah, I'll bet it was forged by the man behind the grassy knoll.

[He11blazer]

The sig series can't EASILY be forged. It's great (thumbs u

Fixed your post.

 

Can't be forged. Cast iron.

 

OK, so somebody could theoretically make a forgery, with sufficient technical expertise and effort, but they could only make a forgery of an existing authenticated sig series item. If two people attempted to add that item to a registry set - bam - forgery detected.

 

With a lot of effort, somebody could be fooled in the short term, but sooner or later the forger would be outed.

 

The only thing a very skillful forger could achieve would be to sell one forgery of each original item he obtains, whilst keeping the originals for himself and never selling them. Hence no profit in it.

 

[Mr. Zipper]

And yes, it would be a brave man to scrawl a sig across a high dollar vaue book, in the hopes of raising it's value. And unlike other collector market's, signature books are not 'universally' revered within the hobby. So doing a fake, could actually decrease a potential seller's market. So i think some of the obvious arguments can be dispelled right there.

 

Maybe so. But you are only looking at one angle.

 

What better way to turn a $10 beater into a $100 "signed gem"?

 

[Kevin Boyd]

This reply is based simply on my personal reaction to the idea and a consideration of some of the difficulties involved in establishing such a service to both the company and to the consumer. They should not be taken as/considered company policy or the opinion of CGC. I have not been involved in any discussions about the creation of such a service, nor am I aware of any plans for or against the creation of such a service.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

Would there be sufficient interest to pay a signature verification expert? I don't know. I know I don't get a lot of questions about older already autographed items.

 

Would people be willing to pay higher fees for the Signature verification service? I don't know. In my experience, I think very few people would pay high fees for this (and I think it would mostly be for items signed on older books by creators like Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, etc.) as I find it unlikely that someone with a $25 DF signed book would pay a high fee for signature verification rather than the $16 modern fee to get it graded as Qualified.

 

Since there are no known signature verification experts in the field of comics, if a person was hired/designated to become one, this person would be spending a lot of time (if the books come in) contacting the families of deceased creators trying to obtain examples of their signature to compare against and/or contacting their former employers for examples in their records ---- what if an example cannot be found? Or say it's a living creator and they don't want to be of assistance to the expert? In any or all of these examples it would be expected that they will ask for fees to provide this information.

 

If unable to obtain a comparable example, the expert has then spent company time looking for information on a book that can't be submitted. There could be no guaranteed turn around times because the timeframe for verifying a signature without a comparable example is unknown. That means holding the book for longer, and covering the insurance premiums for longer while in CGC's vault. How long would you wait? Months? Years? Sure, people could fax over a request in advance and submit when the signature verification expert has examples to compare against, but what if the customer bolts during that waiting time? Would things even out between easily verifiable signatures and difficult ones? Would people pay for a verification service charge even if the signature ultimately could not be verified? The verfication charge and the grading fee would have to be distinguishable, with the verification fee being non-refundable.

 

It would be an expensive proposition to create such a database of information, and a lot of time and effort to create it, and that cost would be incorporated into the costs of such a service and it's hard to predict the success/fail rate of the verification expert.

 

Finally, let's say that --- hypothetically --- this service was created. It couldn't be on the same type of label as the existing SS as the premise for authenticating the autograph is completely different, so it would need to be differentiated from the yellow label to indicate that this is an unwitnessed signature verified by an expert, but with an allowable margin of doubt of forgery. Let's say it's the color orange, and call it CGC Verified Signature Series .

 

Would such a new label be supported any more than Qualified currently is? Or would a CGC Verified Signature Series label just be an expensive service you will all end up calling the "OLOD"?