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Why doesn't CGC employ an authentication service?

Started by UnboxingTreasures,

58 posts in this topic

He11blazer

He11blazer

Posted
Posted
This reply is based simply on my personal reaction to the idea and a consideration of some of the difficulties involved in establishing such a service to both the company and to the consumer. They should not be taken as/considered company policy or the opinion of CGC. I have not been involved in any discussions about the creation of such a service, nor am I aware of any plans for or against the creation of such a service.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

Would there be sufficient interest to pay a signature verification expert? I don't know. I know I don't get a lot of questions about older already autographed items.

 

Would people be willing to pay higher fees for the Signature verification service? I don't know. In my experience, I think very few people would pay high fees for this (and I think it would mostly be for items signed on older books by creators like Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, etc.) as I find it unlikely that someone with a $25 DF signed book would pay a high fee for signature verification rather than the $16 modern fee to get it graded as Qualified.

 

Since there are no known signature verification experts in the field of comics, if a person was hired/designated to become one, this person would be spending a lot of time (if the books come in) contacting the families of deceased creators trying to obtain examples of their signature to compare against and/or contacting their former employers for examples in their records ---- what if an example cannot be found? Or say it's a living creator and they don't want to be of assistance to the expert? In any or all of these examples it would be expected that they will ask for fees to provide this information.

 

If unable to obtain a comparable example, the expert has then spent company time looking for information on a book that can't be submitted. There could be no guaranteed turn around times because the timeframe for verifying a signature without a comparable example is unknown. That means holding the book for longer, and covering the insurance premiums for longer while in CGC's vault. How long would you wait? Months? Years? Sure, people could fax over a request in advance and submit when the signature verification expert has examples to compare against, but what if the customer bolts during that waiting time? Would things even out between easily verifiable signatures and difficult ones? Would people pay for a verification service charge even if the signature ultimately could not be verified? The verfication charge and the grading fee would have to be distinguishable, with the verification fee being non-refundable.

 

It would be an expensive proposition to create such a database of information, and a lot of time and effort to create it, and that cost would be incorporated into the costs of such a service and it's hard to predict the success/fail rate of the verification expert.

 

Finally, let's say that --- hypothetically --- this service was created. It couldn't be on the same type of label as the existing SS as the premise for authenticating the autograph is completely different, so it would need to be differentiated from the yellow label to indicate that this is an unwitnessed signature verified by an expert, but with an allowable margin of doubt of forgery. Let's say it's the color orange, and call it CGC Verified Signature Series .

 

Would such a new label be supported any more than Qualified currently is? Or would a CGC Verified Signature Series label just be an expensive service you will all end up calling the "OLOD"?

 

 

Excellent detailed response :applause:

 

Speaking for myself, it would indeed be the 'OLOD'. It's simply not possible to guarantee the authenticity of an unwitnessed sig.

 

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inconceivable

inconceivable

Posted
Posted

If unable to obtain a comparable example, the expert has then spent company time looking for information on a book that can't be submitted.

 

 

Very good post. I chopped a lot of stuff out that was excellent. I would think that the CGC signature verification expert (CSVE) would have a maintained list of signatures that could be verified. The list would have to be available to the public so the public would know what to submit. Books which contained signatures that were not on the list could not be submitted under the service. The CSVE would add to the list as time went on. It sounds like a challenging and very rewarding job to be able to verify some of the golden-age artists and writers.

 

Thanks Kevin.

Dan

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Aces

Aces

Posted
Posted
Here's a recent example of a 9.8 with notation. Book may very well have been a 10.0 in the absence of the signature though. Still only a .2 deduction if that was indeed the case....

 

SavageTales1CGCSS.jpg

 

Nice book.

Almost makes me wanna buy a modern.

 

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gaz973

gaz973

Posted
Posted
This reply is based simply on my personal reaction to the idea and a consideration of some of the difficulties involved in establishing such a service to both the company and to the consumer. They should not be taken as/considered company policy or the opinion of CGC. I have not been involved in any discussions about the creation of such a service, nor am I aware of any plans for or against the creation of such a service.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

Would there be sufficient interest to pay a signature verification expert? I don't know. I know I don't get a lot of questions about older already autographed items.

 

Would people be willing to pay higher fees for the Signature verification service? I don't know. In my experience, I think very few people would pay high fees for this (and I think it would mostly be for items signed on older books by creators like Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, etc.) as I find it unlikely that someone with a $25 DF signed book would pay a high fee for signature verification rather than the $16 modern fee to get it graded as Qualified.

 

Since there are no known signature verification experts in the field of comics, if a person was hired/designated to become one, this person would be spending a lot of time (if the books come in) contacting the families of deceased creators trying to obtain examples of their signature to compare against and/or contacting their former employers for examples in their records ---- what if an example cannot be found? Or say it's a living creator and they don't want to be of assistance to the expert? In any or all of these examples it would be expected that they will ask for fees to provide this information.

 

If unable to obtain a comparable example, the expert has then spent company time looking for information on a book that can't be submitted. There could be no guaranteed turn around times because the timeframe for verifying a signature without a comparable example is unknown. That means holding the book for longer, and covering the insurance premiums for longer while in CGC's vault. How long would you wait? Months? Years? Sure, people could fax over a request in advance and submit when the signature verification expert has examples to compare against, but what if the customer bolts during that waiting time? Would things even out between easily verifiable signatures and difficult ones? Would people pay for a verification service charge even if the signature ultimately could not be verified? The verfication charge and the grading fee would have to be distinguishable, with the verification fee being non-refundable.

 

It would be an expensive proposition to create such a database of information, and a lot of time and effort to create it, and that cost would be incorporated into the costs of such a service and it's hard to predict the success/fail rate of the verification expert.

 

Finally, let's say that --- hypothetically --- this service was created. It couldn't be on the same type of label as the existing SS as the premise for authenticating the autograph is completely different, so it would need to be differentiated from the yellow label to indicate that this is an unwitnessed signature verified by an expert, but with an allowable margin of doubt of forgery. Let's say it's the color orange, and call it CGC Verified Signature Series .

 

Would such a new label be supported any more than Qualified currently is? Or would a CGC Verified Signature Series label just be an expensive service you will all end up calling the "OLOD"?

 

 

Taking into account all the points bought up here, I can see why such a service would not be practical. Thanks for an in depth and interesting post. (thumbs u

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

Posted
Posted
I'm only saying that the risk is there regardless...and shouldn't be the reason why CGC chooses to perform (or not perform) said service. I think of all of the signatures obtained before CGC and think it's a shame that they can't be included in on the SS stuff.

 

BTW, I personally think there's too much risk vs reward for CGC to consider this, but I think the question is a good one to ask.

 

Very True!

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HOTFLIPS

HOTFLIPS

Posted
Posted

I dont know if anyone touched on this yet, but I recently had a MArvel DC Team-

UP of Superman vs. Spiderman Treasury book, signed by Stan Lee, and a print signed by Jack Kirby authenticated by JSA (Jimmy Spence Authentication). These two items were from a collection that we bought that was laying in someones house along with a bunch of comics.

 

As far as I know, with my sportscard and sports memorabilia background, that JSA or PSA/DNA are the authorities and signatures. I wanted to have CGC authenticate them, being that it is comic book related, but was then told they only do the signature series line.

 

JSA has been in this business a long time. They both came back as legit signatures. The only bad thing is that they put a sticker on the book itself as well as the print. Each sticker has a serial number that can be matched with their records.

 

I dont know if this helps anyone but it helped me and though id pass along the information,

 

Jeff

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silverage12c

silverage12c

Posted
Posted
The only bad thing is that they put a sticker on the book itself as well as the print. Each sticker has a serial number that can be matched with their records.

:o I can't believe they put a sticker right on the comic! Is that just part of the standard process? What if someone had some uber-rare parchment signed by George Washington --- they would sticker that, too? Sounds crazy to me.

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HOTFLIPS

HOTFLIPS

Posted
Posted

I know, thats the only part that stinks. Next time I was going to ask him if he could at least put the sticker on the inside cover. Of course you would have to tell someone its there though. I guess thats the difference between sports memorabilia and comics. You can put a sticker on memorabilia because it is the signature that people want. I have a Michael Jordan autographed jersey for sale and the sticker is on the jersey, however it soes not take away from the signature. Same thing with my Ted Williams bat, the sticker is on the bat itself, along with a letter, but the sticker doesnt take the value away from the signature. Comics is different.

 

Got me thinking though?? If I had a T-206 Honus Wagner card, would it take the value away from the card if he happened to sign it?? Hmmmmm......

 

Jeff

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jordanscott

jordanscott

Posted
Posted
The only bad thing is that they put a sticker on the book itself as well as the print. Each sticker has a serial number that can be matched with their records.

:o I can't believe they put a sticker right on the comic! Is that just part of the standard process? What if someone had some uber-rare parchment signed by George Washington --- they would sticker that, too? Sounds crazy to me.

 

No crazier than taking a perfectly good comic and giving it to a company that turns it into a post card with a number on it.

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
I, for one, have a Batman #42 that I KNOW was signed by Bob Kane. In cases like these, I'm sure people would definitely be wiling to pay a premium to have it slabbed and "authenticated" as genuine, so it would be nice to have the OPTION.

 

The real question is whether or not buyers would have enough faith in the 'authentication' to pay a premium.

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UnboxingTreasures

UnboxingTreasures

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Posted
I, for one, have a Batman #42 that I KNOW was signed by Bob Kane. In cases like these, I'm sure people would definitely be wiling to pay a premium to have it slabbed and "authenticated" as genuine, so it would be nice to have the OPTION.

 

The real question is whether or not buyers would have enough faith in the 'authentication' to pay a premium.

 

I don't see why they wouldn't. Sure, there's going to be a few people who might doubt that the signature is actually authentic, but there are a plethora of buyers who put faith in the systems that judge signatures to be real and valid.

 

To prove this point all you have to do is look at eBay auctions for certified autographs on sports cards.

 

There was a previous post mentioning, "What if the autograph can't be certified. This would keep the books at CGC for months on end trying to validate an autograph."

 

Well, again, what the card companies do, is if they don't have a way to validate the autograph they simply return the card to the customer.

 

 

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