Question for Comic Scholars

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

What, if any relationship is there between today's comics/graphic novels and wood cut books?

 

I picked up several wood cut books by Lynd Ward, Otto Nuckel, and Laurence Hyde at the library and was curious if these types of books have been viewed as precursors to the contemporary comic or graphic novel.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[MedicAR]

I would say they are definitely ancestors of the current graphic novels from my quick scan of their work on the net. That they chose woodcuts as opposed to traditional pen and ink should be of little consequence, it's not the medium that matters so much as the technique used to tell the story and they're using pictures to communicate their narrative.

 

In my opinion, any artist that can tell a story without a single word is a genius. They can reach anyone anywhere in the world, regardless of language.

 

Now I've got to find some of these books......

[chromium]

What, if any relationship is there between today's comics/graphic novels and wood cut books?

 

I picked up several wood cut books by Lynd Ward, Otto Nuckel, and Laurence Hyde at the library and was curious if these types of books have been viewed as precursors to the contemporary comic or graphic novel.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Scott McCloud calls wood cuts "missing links" in the development of comics.

 

Belgium's (ha !) Frans Masereel was a pioneer in the field

 

 

 

And a search on him should provide plenty of info

[Mac Man]

I remember doing woodcuts in one of my high school art classes and chopping my hands up pretty badly.

 

Fun project, but painful.

[alecholland]

I think you could definitely make a link between japanese woodblock prints, specifically Ukiyo-e, which were mass produced for the common folk (so to speak) and comics.

 

Yes, to your question about woodcut books as well. I would think there is a link between the two.

 

However, I am neither a comic scholar nor an art scholar, so that's just an uneducated opinion.

[MedicAR]

I think you could make a link between japanese woodblock prints, specifically Ukiyo-e, which were mass produced for the common folk (so to speak) and comics. However, I am neither a comic scholar nor an art scholar, so that's just an uneducated opinion.

 

Ditto, I love comics and I love art, but it would be overstating it to say I'm a scholar. I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion.

[mjacobs8]

I think you could make a link between japanese woodblock prints, specifically Ukiyo-e, which were mass produced for the common folk (so to speak) and comics. However, I am neither a comic scholar nor an art scholar, so that's just an uneducated opinion.

 

Ditto, I love comics and I love art, but it would be overstating it to say I'm a scholar. I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion.

"I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion."

 

I love this line...can I use it in my sig?

 

[shadroch]

I think you could make a link between japanese woodblock prints, specifically Ukiyo-e, which were mass produced for the common folk (so to speak) and comics. However, I am neither a comic scholar nor an art scholar, so that's just an uneducated opinion.

 

Ditto, I love comics and I love art, but it would be overstating it to say I'm a scholar. I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion.

"I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion."

 

I love this line...can I use it in my sig?

 

 

You might want to check with JC. I'm thinking he has the trademark on this.

[Chi Bamm]

Ditto, I love comics and I love art, but it would be overstating it to say I'm a scholar. I'm more of a jerk with a computer and an opinion.

 

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

Thanks everybody for the good thoughts. The books I checked out are from the 30's to the 50's. Interesting stuff.

[rodan57]

I would say they are definitely ancestors of the current graphic novels from my quick scan of their work on the net. That they chose woodcuts as opposed to traditional pen and ink should be of little consequence, it's not the medium that matters so much as the technique used to tell the story and they're using pictures to communicate their narrative.

 

In my opinion, any artist that can tell a story without a single word is a genius. They can reach anyone anywhere in the world, regardless of language.

 

Now I've got to find some of these books......

 

I was going to make some joke about how much they resemble modern comic art in the way in which the "word" has almost disappeared from new books but that might be a too flippant dismissal of some rather nice artwork.

 

However, while I have seen a lot of nice comic book work in my time, I, like many others, have seen some work which seems to leave behind or misunderstand the connection between word and picture.

 

I really believe that the best comic book work makes a connection between word and picture in a way that brings the story to life in the reader's/viewer's mind. Can a comic book be without words? Yes. Does a comic book need to have its words within word balloons? Not necessarily. But the exception to the traditional format only serves to highlight the importance of the word/picture synthesis, in my opinion.

 

By the way, thanks for the posting as it made for some rather interesting web searching.

 

[CAP Freak]

I think you could definitely make a link between japanese woodblock prints, specifically Ukiyo-e, which were mass produced for the common folk (so to speak) and comics.

 

Yes, to your question about woodcut books as well. I would think there is a link between the two.

 

However, I am neither a comic scholar nor an art scholar, so that's just an uneducated opinion.

My elementary school teacher had us go outside in groups (unsupervised) and nail holes into an empty soup can with a hammer and some rusty nails. Talk about a psycho.

[MedicAR]

I was going to make some joke about how much they resemble modern comic art in the way in which the "word" has almost disappeared from new books but that might be a too flippant dismissal of some rather nice artwork.

 

However, while I have seen a lot of nice comic book work in my time, I, like many others, have seen some work which seems to leave behind or misunderstand the connection between word and picture.

 

I really believe that the best comic book work makes a connection between word and picture in a way that brings the story to life in the reader's/viewer's mind. Can a comic book be without words? Yes. Does a comic book need to have its words within word balloons? Not necessarily. But the exception to the traditional format only serves to highlight the importance of the word/picture synthesis, in my opinion.

 

By the way, thanks for the posting as it made for some rather interesting web searching.

 

I think that, currently, the majority of artists churning out the wordless or near wordless stuff lack the grace and storytelling abilities we're seeing here. They're more pinups and less story, at least the few I can think of.

 

An exception that quickly sprang to my mind is Dave Sim. He's done two short wordless stories with Cerebus (that I can think of....there are probably more) that I loved. I think of them like silent films, in that it took some work and style to tell a story but the payoff was that the story became universal and could be enjoyed by anyone, anywhere, in any language and exactly as the creator intended. Nothing was lost in translation.

 

I can see the idea that there has to be a connection between the word and the art but I also think that there has to be more the art than pretty pictures. Check out Will Eisner's Comics and Sequential Art, he has a whole section on communicating mood and emotion using nothing but posture. After reading that and looking at his comics, I learned why they have more impact than the average and he did it so subtly that I don't know that I ever would have picked up on it without the explanation.

[rodan57]

 

I can see the idea that there has to be a connection between the word and the art but I also think that there has to be more the art than pretty pictures. Check out Will Eisner's Comics and Sequential Art, he has a whole section on communicating mood and emotion using nothing but posture. After reading that and looking at his comics, I learned why they have more impact than the average and he did it so subtly that I don't know that I ever would have picked up on it without the explanation.

 

You bring up some good points. I agree with the impact that is garnered by the art. When I was a child, I wanted to draw Marvel comics. I didn't give any thought to the writer. I saw comic books as a visual medium.

 

As an adult, I am far more sensitive to the story and dialogue. As a fan of Lee and Kirby and Ditko, I reread the "classics" with a more finely attuned critical eye. For the most part, this increased attention to the whole product gives greater enjoyment with the books and a greater appreciation to what Marvel was doing in the mid-sixties. I didn't get off of my duff, but I did at one point consider starting a thread that merely provided the text to some early Marvel work as an exercise in proving that Lee was more than just a creative hitch-hiker (as some critics posit) on the art of Kirby and Ditko.

 

As a sample, the following is from X-Men #8 (Nov. 1964):

 

The Beast

I'm through risking my life for humans...for the same humans who fear us, hate us, want to destroy us! I think Magneto and his evil mutants are right... sapiens just aren't worth it!

 

Cyclops

You're tired, Hank...all upset over what happened! You don't mean what you say!

 

The Beast

I'm in full possession of my faculties, Scott! I mean every word! I'm resigning from the X-Men!

 

Cyclops

But, Hank...all your training... your work... you just can't toss it all aside!

 

The Beast

Can't I? Just watch me! From now on I use my powers to help just one person...Henry McCoy...yours truly! The human race can go fly a kite!

 

All this is from panels 1 and 2 on page 6. The old "resignation of a team member" had been worked a couple of time previously in the Fantastic Four, but the dialogue has true character to it. A story is being told without the pictures. It's not Shakespeare, some might dismiss it as mere melodrama, but it's a far cry from what is being done by other comic book companies at that time, and representative of a level of writing that was rare then and is rare now.

 

And, these panels were chosen pretty much at random. I opened up the X-Men Essentials and chose this passage after only a few seconds perusal.

 

I don't think I am making any Earth shattering point here, but it is interesting to intellectually chew upon the way in which good writing and good drawing can stand apart and work together.

 

p.s. I thought about masking the first word in the species name for humans in the above quoted dialogue, but, hey, we can all figure it out.

 

[MedicAR]

Oh they work together without a doubt! And you can take that statement as you will, either with Lee and Kirby and Ditko or with art and pictures. The words definitely enhance the final product in most cases (bad writers aside). And in a way, the art enhances the writing when the two work together well.

 

I'm just fascinated with the ability to communicate without words.

[rodan57]

 

I'm just fascinated with the ability to communicate without words.

 

Nice touch, ending with an emoticon.