Weird Science 16 cover sells for $200K Good Lord, Choke Gasp!

[NelsonAI]

 

 

It's a great cover.

 

Many individuals have made valid comments about artists being forgotten as the years go by and new generations no longer find the art relevant. That may be true for lesser known artists.

 

IMHO for the better artists, there will always be a following and demand for their art. Wally Wood and Frazetta were before my time but I am still amazed at the quality of their work everytime I look at it. What about Alphonse Mucha who is still revered by fine art galleries and comic industry / collectors alike?

 

Collectors may initially collect what is familiar and nostalgia from their generation. However, as they become more serious and study the history of the hobby, I believe they will begin to expand their horizons and collect items from the generations before (assuming they can afford the items).

 

Again, it's a great cover and congratulations to both buyer and seller.

 

Cheers!

N

 

 

[adamstrange]

Anyway, it just doesn't matter what tv show you have nostalgia for, because there will always be collectors for Raymond Flash Gordon, and Wood EC, and Kirby FF.

 

I think you've done a nice job summarizing why some pieces will command interest for a period of time after nostalgia is dead and gone.

 

I love this cover, but as I was looking at the scan I realized that much of my appreciation of the comic is related to the combination of the art and the thoughtful coloring by Marie Severin. She was very, very good by the time this cover came out. I'm not sure that this particular top-notch Wood cover is much better in quality than several of Wally's others for EC.

[delekkerste]

In any hobby or collectable area, there is a history and a continuity. New collectors that come in (and many old ones too) jump into that stream and go from there. The group psyche will tell you what to buy. Ask an expert in any collectible field and you will get some pretty definate lists of ultimate or near ultimate art to search out, and I would venture to say that there would be much overlap on the list. Now the list may be broken down into great technical draftsmen, and/or historical character based must haves but the point is that there is a short list. This list may evolve somewhat over time and that is where you take a little risk, but it is pretty easy to figure it out by jumping in and getting advice. Anyway, it just doesn't matter what tv show you have nostalgia for, because there will always be collectors for Raymond Flash Gordon, and Wood EC, and Kirby FF.

 

IMHO for the better artists, there will always be a following and demand for their art. Wally Wood and Frazetta were before my time but I am still amazed at the quality of their work everytime I look at it. What about Alphonse Mucha who is still revered by fine art galleries and comic industry / collectors alike?

 

These are very valid points, no doubt. I love and collect old Warren art, particularly Vampirella, even though I wasn't a reader of the source material until later in my collecting career - I think that the quality of the art is just that good. Similarly, I'm sure that most of the EC art collectors today weren't picking up new issues off the rack in the 1950s (though they may have discovered the source material fairly early in their collecting lives). However, I wonder what will happen the farther you fast forward into the future and more and more of the collecting base gets generations removed from the original source material, particularly the stuff that isn't character-based and may not have blockbuster movies, etc. coming out to sustain interest.

 

I was out at Frazetta scholar Doc Dave's house last year and saw his amazing collection of Frazetta and other great artists like Herriman, Williamson, Raymond, Hogarth, etc. The quality and historical importance of these artists is unquestionable, though as Dave was telling me and Hari and another friend about the significance of Herriman's Krazy Kat to the comics canon, I was struck that this was the first time any of us had really been educated on the subject to this degree. Long-time comic/illustration art collectors from the 1960s and 1970s were much more familiar and well versed in the works of these and other great comic artists like Wally Wood, and a good bit of this knowledge has not been passed down to the subsequent generation or two of comic art collectors.

 

I suspect that a little bit more knowledge and interest will be lost with each subsequent generation, just as I'm fairly certain that the Herrimans, Raymonds, Hogarths and such are already much less well known than they were in the past (Krazy Kat, Flash Gordon and Tarzan are characters which are all arguably on the downside of their peak popularities, Krazy Kat especially so). I think Kirby FF has a much better chance of being at the forefront of the comic art collecting world in 50 years than Wood EC, even though I personally find the latter more to my liking. Will people still be discovering and collecting Frazettas in 150 years (or not, as supposed by the Illustration House guy on the Frazetta DVD)? Only time will tell, of course...

[bhhooks22]

In any hobby or collectable area, there is a history and a continuity. New collectors that come in (and many old ones too) jump into that stream and go from there. The group psyche will tell you what to buy. Ask an expert in any collectible field and you will get some pretty definate lists of ultimate or near ultimate art to search out, and I would venture to say that there would be much overlap on the list. Now the list may be broken down into great technical draftsmen, and/or historical character based must haves but the point is that there is a short list. This list may evolve somewhat over time and that is where you take a little risk, but it is pretty easy to figure it out by jumping in and getting advice. Anyway, it just doesn't matter what tv show you have nostalgia for, because there will always be collectors for Raymond Flash Gordon, and Wood EC, and Kirby FF.

 

IMHO for the better artists, there will always be a following and demand for their art. Wally Wood and Frazetta were before my time but I am still amazed at the quality of their work every time I look at it. What about Alphonse Mucha who is still revered by fine art galleries and comic industry / collectors alike?

 

These are very valid points, no doubt. I love and collect old Warren art, particularly Vampirella, even though I wasn't a reader of the source material until later in my collecting career - I think that the quality of the art is just that good. Similarly, I'm sure that most of the EC art collectors today weren't picking up new issues off the rack in the 1950s (though they may have discovered the source material fairly early in their collecting lives). However, I wonder what will happen the farther you fast forward into the future and more and more of the collecting base gets generations removed from the original source material, particularly the stuff that isn't character-based and may not have blockbuster movies, etc. coming out to sustain interest.

 

I was out at Frazetta scholar Doc Dave's house last year and saw his amazing collection of Frazetta and other great artists like Herriman, Williamson, Raymond, Hogarth, etc. The quality and historical importance of these artists is unquestionable, though as Dave was telling me and Hari and another friend about the significance of Herriman's Krazy Kat to the comics canon, I was struck that this was the first time any of us had really been educated on the subject to this degree. Long-time comic/illustration art collectors from the 1960s and 1970s were much more familiar and well versed in the works of these and other great comic artists like Wally Wood, and a good bit of this knowledge has not been passed down to the subsequent generation or two of comic art collectors.

 

I suspect that a little bit more knowledge and interest will be lost with each subsequent generation, just as I'm fairly certain that the Herrimans, Raymonds, Hogarths and such are already much less well known than they were in the past (Krazy Kat, Flash Gordon and Tarzan are characters which are all arguably on the downside of their peak popularities, Krazy Kat especially so). I think Kirby FF has a much better chance of being at the forefront of the comic art collecting world in 50 years than Wood EC, even though I personally find the latter more to my liking. Will people still be discovering and collecting Frazettas in 150 years (or not, as supposed by the Illustration House guy on the Frazetta DVD)? Only time will tell, of course...

 

I have only read this one page of this thread , so sorry if it's been covered , but I have always respected your posts Delek. , and I totally agree w/ respect to artwork , but by your own summations that everyone is guided by the same recommendations as what to collect , , ..the contrarian in me tells me to look at what everyone else isn't looking at , and it could possibly be the thing to collect , and to be in a position to sell in a few years at a profit ? .....Bh

[NelsonAI]

While at the latest NYCC show, a women with her 2 young kids asked me and a few other fellow collectors about art as an investment and mentioned her husband specifically loves Krazy Kat. She was hoping to buy a Krazy Kat original (until she found out how much they would actually cost). Now it's possible that although she was fairly young, her husband could have been 80+ years old. The younger generations may have a diminishing interest in the comic strip but there are clearly a few that will have some familiarity with Herriman's work.

 

The fact that these boards keep referring to a specific individual that once used "Krazy Kat" as his alias is sufficient enough for future generations to look up the words "Krazy Kat" on the internet. What do you get? - a Wikipedia listing as the first item.

 

Cheers!

N

 

 

 

 

[Mister Trent]

Long-time comic/illustration art collectors from the 1960s and 1970s were much more familiar and well versed in the works of these and other great comic artists like Wally Wood, and a good bit of this knowledge has not been passed down to the subsequent generation or two of comic art collectors.

 

In recent years TwoMorrows published a wonderful book on Wood, AGAINST THE GRAIN: MAD ARTIST WALLACE WOOD (something for posterity, perhaps?):

 

"Some artists try to build a legacy that will transcend after their death, Wally Wood would not be that artist. His life he took in his hands, a troubled artist but a great artist. Sometimes the net is like a rummage of rare finds, and I found Against the Grain: Mad Artist Wallace Wood by Bhob Stewart printed by TwoMorrows Publishing. Here is a perfect opportunity to read the whole book online for free, I would strongly recommend buying the book, TwoMorrows has an amazing line of books about modern and past comic book artists.

 

 

Bhob Stewart’s long-awaited Against the Grain: Mad Artist Wallace Wood is the definitive book ever produced on the career of one of science fiction and comics’ finest artists. In addition to a remarkable memoir of life at the Wood Studio, former Wood associate Bhob Stewart also provides a biographical portrait, tracing Wood’s life from Minnesota to Manhattan while exploring the humorous spirit, dark detours, and psychological twists of a gifted maverick who often went against the grain. From childhood drawings and ambitious teenage samples to an endless parade of pages for a variety of publishers - Avon, EC, Fox, Marvel, Warren, and more - plus illustrations for Galaxy Science Fiction, this is the most stunning display of Wood art ever assembled. Many of the artists and writers who knew Wood personally have also contributed articles and essays, making this book a huge compendium of imaginative art, insights and critical commentary. Bill Pearson, executor of the Wood Estate, has made available rare drawings directly from Wood’s own files, while noted art collector Roger Hill, an authority on artists of the EC era, provides a wealth of obscure, previously unpublished Wood drawings and paintings."

[Paris_Fred]

Great book,

I gave a few things to Roger Hill, then we lost contact, too bad I had a few great things for him.

 

6 pages here and no post on the Comic-L

[bedrockcomics]

i cant think of a better invesment than the original ec art- when cochran and gaines put this stuff on the market many years ago its was going for peanuts - shoulda /coulda/woulda

[comicartcom]

I've been reading this entire post for teh past few days with keen interest & I think I finally need to bring up a few points.

 

As someone involved in comics + comic art as a dealer for 40 years, I have a personal history that gives me alot of perspective on the issues mentioned in this thread.

 

Something that is really not mentioned is that collecting values rise & fall with each generation. Prices go up, up, up for many years as young readers mature, make money at higher levels in life as they get older still & fianlly they achieve an epoch that coincides with the large part of that particular population reaching their 40s, 50s & 60s at which point many people slow down or stop collecting except for a small core of collectors. Also their numbers are reduced by death as well as marriage (marriage frequently ends collecting for some people, and death most certainly brings it to a crashing halt). Once the population of collectors reaches this point, interest slacks off. This is what has been seen in comic strip collecting, pulps & dime novels of the early part of the century.

 

Pulp magazines are a particular hobby that is easy to see the results of the majority of the collectors having died off, or completed everything they wanted and now pulp collecting is very narrow. Argosy pulps will never achieve price increases again, while Shadows, Doc Savage & the weird menace pulps will for obvious reasons.

 

keep in mind collecting itself is generally done from a nostaligic perspective. But that does not neccessarily mean that you have to have been around when the material was first presented. How many King Kong collectors or Frankenstein collectors are there? I doubt many of them were around in 1931 or 1933, so their familiarity has come in later decades.

 

Characters that are in continuous publication in some way (we'll count TV and film as publication) will continue their popularity. But at the same time, in order for Alex raymond art to continue increasing in value/interest, people have to familiarize themselves with the hostorical aspects of the Flash Gordon character & be able to find affordable publications to read these antique stories from teh comic strips. For me it's easy.. I have a huge library of comic strips from 1904-1975 that I acquired years ago so I could read them and also so I could access the strips when I was being offered art collections - much of this material has never & will never be reprinted and that is an impediment to future popularity beyond historians like myself.

 

EC art has continued to increase in value due to a core of true blue collectors and 50 years down the road these collectors (including unfortunately myself) will be gone. Will that end the value of EC comic art.. NO, and we can only speculate if EC art will lose it's value. Some aspects of EC might, but most likely by then, most of the art will be in the hands of Museums anyway which is the natural course of life.

 

Will marvel art coninue to increase?? Again we can only speculate. Keep in mind that while ever bigger dollars are being spent on items like the Wood cover or 9.8 Spidey #1s, the hobby itself is decreasing in size & population. You only have to look at the loss of 3500 comic stores in the last 15 years to see that and the incredibly low readership levels of comic books (fewer comics of all publishers are sold every month today than a single issue of Captain Marvel from 1941-1946). So the reality is that in 50 years, comic collectors may only be a tiny tiny population anyway.

 

Due to the generational aspect of any hobby - Bronze age art has overshot the values of most Golden Age art. I'm sure that 30 years from now some other part of the hobby (if it still exists) will surpass Bronze because the collectors then are the kids now who will be making more money than you make today and they will collect what they are nostalgic about. I predict that video game box art at some point down the road will be sold for very high prices by our standards

 

There will always be someone who collects EC art just like there will always be someone who collects New England Samplers ( you know the old knitted "Home Sweet Home" things country folks used to make & hang up). I seriously doubt that EC art will follow the trend of 98% of pulps where there is just no longer a customer base.

 

Rich============

 

 

[Mighty Hal]

Rich, thanks for an interesting post. I think you've made some well-considered observations here.

 

Like you, I believe that video game-related artwork will be a big dollar item in twenty or thirty years. Right now, it can be picked up fairly cheaply. I've seen full-painted pieces go for $50 and less. The problem is, I don't personally have an interest in the stuff and don't have any desire to collect it.

 

I love comic OA so I collect that. I'm trying to cobble together a deal as I write this, knowing that future generations will prefer the box art to CUSTER'S REVENGE (Atari). It's a losing game as an investment but, as Woody Allen so famously said, "The heart wants what the heart wants."

[comix4fun]

. I'm trying to cobble together a deal as I write this, knowing that future generations will prefer the box art to CUSTER'S REVENGE (Atari). It's a losing game as an investment but, as Woody Allen so famously said, "The heart wants what the heart wants."

 

 

 

Wasn't that the first Porn video game in history?

 

C

 

[Bronty]

it was definitely an early adult title. not sure if it was the first. custer has to avoid the arrows to get to the native american booty from what I recall.

[buyatari]

it was definitely an early adult title. not sure if it was the first. custer has to avoid the arrows to get to the native american booty from what I recall.

 

You rape an Indian tied to a totem pole while avoiding arrows and cactus which spout up at you feet. The arrows disappear after reaching hat level so an arrow that should continue and stike you dead does not. Only arrows that hit your hat kill you.

 

The game was protested and pulled from most places. You'd think it would be one of the rarest games ever made but its not. I once had 50 sealed copies and you can find one on any given day for about $50 +/- $25. While many rare games have gone up in value over the years this one is worth exactly what it was worth in the mid 90s pre-ebay when I started collected videogames.

 

[Bronty]

the stuff they came up with back then........ beat 'em and eat 'em too (for those not familiar with the game, its pretty much what you think).

 

Here's that Japanese arcade game I was telling you about. Japan's still going strong with the adult titles... you shove your finger up an asz. Sounds like fun! http://www.syberpunk.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?page=boonga

 

check out the mascots - a hand and a steaming pile http://www.syberpunk.com/images/misc/boonga/boonga4.jpg

[mister_not_so_nice]

 

I pixalated that vulgar pic for you so you wouldn't get a strike and so I wouldn't have p0rn popping up on my screen.

[NelsonAI]

Video games and porn? I think we are now officially off topic.

[Mister Trent]

I read the old EC stories through the Gladstone reprints of the 1980s. I'm not sure how many people are still picking up the reprint editions today, but it's surely not a large number.

 

Rather than exchange opinions, I thought I would check directly with the people involved with producing the new EC reprint books. Here's one piece of feedback I've received:

 

"Hi Terry,

 

I'm the art director, designer and color editor of the EC ARCHIVES. If I can

speak for Russ…

and maybe he can add to this. The EC ARCHIVES are doing VERY well. A number of

the

editions are sold out. As an EC fan myself (I have most of Russ's Library sets)

I'm quite

surprised and delighted with EC ARCHIVES' reception. What's very encouraging is

that most

of the buyers of the EC ARCHIVES are new readers who are unfamiliar or who

haven't read

EC books before. And what's really great is that they're getting hooked. I

sometimes

contribute to a Web forum on all Archive editions (Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, etc.)

and I know

from the reception I get there that EC is alive and doing very well and gaining

a new

readership. The readers can't wait for each edition to come out and they want

them to

come out more often than the bi-monthly schedule. The readers I have spoken with

also

feel that the production values on the EC ARCHIVES are superior to Marvel and

DC's

output. That makes me feel good. Readers love the new coloring, design, and the

in depth

features on EC's history in every volume.

 

With all of the enthusiasm I see for the EC ARCHIVES, I'm surprised to see that

they've been

largely ignored on this message group.

 

From my perspective, EC IS ALIVE AND WELL!"

 

--Michael Kronenberg

 

Foreword by George Lucas, no less . . .

 

. . . and another Foreword by some guy called Spielberg

[WOXL]

The EC Archives program appears to be really successful. It's circumstantial evidence, but many of the folks on the board referenced by Michael Kronenberg, The Collected Editions Discussions Forum, have had their first exposure to EC material through the new Archives. I'm only 25 and the Archives are my first exposure to the EC material and I'm absolutely hooked! Coming back to the hobby, I heard a ton about EC being some of the best comics ever told and wanted to check them out because of the good word of mouth and historical context. There was even a free EC sampler comic given out at comic shops on free comic book day!

 

For those interested, here are first month Diamond sales for the EC Archives:

Oct-06 (56) EC ARCHIVES WEIRD SCIENCE VOL 1 HC 1754

Nov-06 (60) EC ARCHIVES SHOCK SUSPENSTORIES VOL 1 HC 1896

Feb-07 (39) EC ARCHIVES TALES FROM CRYPT VOL 1 HC 2374

Mar-07 (57) EC ARCHIVES TWO FISTED TALES VOL 1 HC 1698

April-07 (59) EC ARCHIVES WEIRD SCIENCE VOL 2 HC 1677

May-07 (80) Shock Suspense Stories Archives Vol 2 1643

June-07 (64) Tales From The Crypt Archives Vol 2 - 1791

Aug 07: Two-Fisted Tales Archives Vol 2 - 1339

Oct-07 (85) Vault of Horror Archives Vol 1 - 1677

Jan-08 (79) Crime Suspenstories Vol 1 - 1357

 

For comparison, here are numbers for Golden & Atlas Age Marvel Masterworks:

Oct 04: GA Marvel Vol 1 - 3364

Mar 05: GA Cap Vol 1 - 2500

Jun 05: GA Sub-Mariner Vol 1 - 2598

Nov 05: GA Human Torch Vol 1 - 2420

Dec 05: GA All-Winners Vol 1 - 2412

Jan 06: AE Tales To Astonish Vol 1 - 2539

Mar 06: GA Marvel Vol 2 - 2300

Oct 06: AE Tales Of Suspense Vol 1 - 2522

Dec 06: GA All-Winners Vol 2 - 2200

Jan 07: AE Heroes Vol 1 - 2581

Mar 07: GA USA Comics Vol 1 - 2367

Aug 07: GA Sub-Mariner Vol 2 - 2093

Oct 07: AE Strange Tales Vol 1 - 2189

Dec 07: GA Human Torch Vol 2 - 1943

Feb 08: AE Heroes Vol 2 - 2026

 

and Golden Age DC archives:

May 05: Superman Action Vol 4 - 1946

Jun 05: Batman Vol 6 - 2265

Dec 05: GA Hawkman Vol 1 - 1939

Jan 06: GA Flash Vol 2 - 1616

Apr 06: Superman Vol 7 - 1808

Apr 06: Flash Vol 4 - 1851

Jun 06: Batman Dynamic Duo Vol 2 - 1806

Mar 07: Superman Action Vol 5 - 1441

Jul 07: GA Dr Fate Vol 1 - 1843

Nov 07: Batman Vol 7 - 1720

Nov 07: Mad Vol 2 - ~1000

 

and for some the Spirit Archives, put out by DC:

Mar 06: Spirit Vol 18 - 2038

Aug 06: Spirit Vol 19 - 1987

Dec 06: Spirit Vol 20 - 1993

Apr 07: Spirit Vol 21 - 1908

Aug 07: Spirit Vol 22 - 1862

Nov 07: Spirit Vol 23 - 1819

 

So the EC Archives are pulling about the same first month direct market numbers as the golden age DC Archives. It should be noted that the Marvel Masterworks are usually printed for initial demand only and so tend to have higher first month numbers while the DC Archives are available for reorder and sell more books in reorders.

 

I've heard that the EC Archives have a huge push at bookstores and are doing good numbers there but have no idea of the actual numbers. Does anybody know any way to find book store sales info?

 

I think as long as there are new comics being published and EC books are kept in print, there will be a huge audience for the material, and as an extension, a huge audience for the original art. The art is so strong and the material has such an important place in history of not only this medium, but also first amendment rights, that it seems like there will always have to be SOME demand. Hell, I'd love to pick up some EC art now but it's already too bloody expensive. I'm not sure if prices of EC art will always continue to go up but I'm fairly certain there will always be enough demand to create a market of some sort for the art.

 

-Bob

 

[delekkerste]

Rather than exchange opinions, I thought I would check directly with the people involved with producing the new EC reprint books. Here's one piece of feedback I've received:

 

From my perspective, EC IS ALIVE AND WELL!"

 

Not to belabor the point, but asking the people involved with producing the new EC reprint books is like asking a real estate agent about the housing market. No matter what the conditions are, you're guaranteed to only get one answer. Furthermore, what was the print run of the EC Archives relative to the Gladstone issues of the '80s? I don't see any evidence that the number of EC readers isn't falling over time (note I said "falling" and not "has reached extinction"). And as for the anecdotes about new readers, well, that's just it - they're just anecdotes, and there's a huge self-selection bias if you survey those who contribute to a Web forum. I don't think anything you posted contradicts what I said and, in fact, probably reinforces my argument if one looks beneath the surface and analyzes the details.

 

Just trying to be objective with the facts.

[delekkerste]

I've heard that the EC Archives have a huge push at bookstores and are doing good numbers there but have no idea of the actual numbers. Does anybody know any way to find book store sales info?

 

I've never seen one outside a comic book store.

 

 

I think as long as there are new comics being published and EC books are kept in print, there will be a huge audience for the material, and as an extension, a huge audience for the original art. The art is so strong and the material has such an important place in history of not only this medium, but also first amendment rights, that it seems like there will always have to be SOME demand.

 

I agree with you that "there will always have to be SOME demand", but where's the evidence that "there will be a huge audience for the material"? Certainly not from the sales figures you've shown - all that shows me is that there's not a HUGE audience for 1940s and 1950s archive material from ANY publisher, which goes back to my original point that it is the Silver Age material and incarnation of characters that have remained in the public eye and continue to hook generation after generation of fans (though not necessarily to the comic book/art medium).

 

Again, I'm a fan of the old EC books - I think they are some of the most brilliant comics ever published, as were the old Warren magazines from the 1960s and 1970s (of which I am an even bigger fan). Objectively speaking, however, it is tough to argue that there is a "huge audience" for either, or that we should expect to see anything but a slow erosion in popularity in the coming decades (note, again, that I said "decades" and not "weeks" or "months")!