Full-Backs vs. Half-backs backing boards?

[insanebidder-migration]

I have a question about full-backs vs. half-backs. I'm currently using oversized Mylar 8 1/4th x 10 1/2 Super Golden Age 4 mil Comic-Gard sleeves for all of my comics, even modern size. I like the extra room allowed on both sides and also use an open top to allow for the byproducts of the acidification process to be released. I also use Microchamber paper inside the book. However, the books lack support and I was considering getting some buffered backing boards. As I like room, I don't want things to be "too" tight, yet I want enough support for the books so that, when placed vertically, the corners of the mylar don't buckle a little like they have been and so that the book remains flat. What kind of backing board from E. Gerber (Half-back or full-back) and "size" (Silver/Golden age or Super Golden age to fill the "whole" sleeve) do you suggest for my needs? Having a backing board "show" on either side of the comics isn't as much of a concern to me as support, yet I don't want things to be "too" tight to where putting the comic in/removing it is next to impossible. Help?

 

Brent

 

[whomerjay]

I can use half-backs with Mylites2 and archives, fullbacks with Mylites2, but cannot use fullbacks with Archives (too tight). Maybe I'm just too clutsy but seems it's way too easy to damage a book if it's in too tight. The math to me says prioritize ease of handling. With thick books, fullbacks with Mylites 2 is approaching too tight. I have decided to only use fullbacks only on books I don't plan on taking out. IMO a 4 mil bag plus half back provides plenty of protection and preservation, especially for those who are anal (i.e., very careful) about storing their books. I think you need to test both with your specific bag.

 

Having said all this, I love turtle shells above all else and don't understand why they are not more popular. Does anyone know where I can get a killer price for bulk?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Are turtle shells that same as top loaders?

[greggy]

Yes!

[buttock]

I think you need a great halfback, but in order to get the most of his ability you need a great blocking fullback.

[Aman619]

arent turtles those hard plastic shells that have a fixed 1/8th opening at top?

[greggy]

Yep...they seem to have been more popular in the early 90s. Haven't really seen them used locally for ages!

[insanebidder-migration]

Well, I'd be using BCE's Super Golden age mylar Comic-Gards, which are 4 mil thick and 8 1/4 x 10 1/2 with a 3/4th inch tab. Since I'd be mixing it with another company's backing boards, E. Gerber's, I'm also wondering what size I should use--either the Golden age or the "Super Golden Age" because I'm "also" worried about room near the edges as well. I'm assuming the tighter the fit on the sides the better, but since this is my first time having Mylar I'm not sure. I intentionally bought the larger sized Mylars so that, no matter what I buy--Modern, Bronze, Silver, or Golden comics, they'd all fit into the Mylar. I think I've decided on Half-backs to be on the safe side. Now I just need to find out what backing board would be the best size-wise. I want the Mylar to be filled with a comparable sized board, but to don't want to have any issues getting the board in the Mylar. According to E. Gerber's web-site, the 1/2 backs are 7 5/8 width for Golden age and 7 7/8 for Super Golden age. Neither seems like it would be a problem fitting in an 8 1/4th inch width Mylar but I don't want to risk having to "force" the backing board into the Mylar. Any suggestions?

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

PS--Aren't those turtle shells prone to plastic decay, though? If they're not made from Mylar?

 

Brent

 

[Aman619]

that was my next point: they arent achival at all. But I suppose if used outside of a double-mylared, acid-free backing boarded book not to much will leak in and you wouldnt have to worry about the entire package bending a whole lot.

 

I get jealous when I read comments about well some of you guys protect your books so well...and so well-planned. Im anal enough to look at my endless variety of storage solutions that it makes me want to just get to work making it all uniform and with the best materieal available.

 

but...I start and a half hour later, Im all done... Heck with it!!

[whomerjay]

Perhaps they are prone to plastic decay (I've read various opinions as to whether this means anything) and I guess this needs to be considered for archival, but I like to thin bag and thin board the book then stick it in the turtle shell. When I did shows (a while ago) this provided great protection (a book would invariably fall or someone would rough handle it), offered a highly visible book, and allowed me to get the book out easily for closer presentation if necessary. I personally am worried more about a book getting crushed, folded or dinged whether it's in my home or elsewhere, and I know that over the years I have done much more damage to my books by mishandling them than by not putting them in chemical-intelligent/ non-reactive materials.

 

As I said I like turtle shells but they are expensive if looking to archive thousands of books. Most of my collection is in mylite2s with half or full back in mag boxes (bigger ticket books), or in whatever 2 mil bag with whatever kind of a board (less expensive books). I've had several books in cheap bags/boards for over 20 years and they (the books, not always the bags) look OK to me. IMO the more damaging factor is climate, and poorer archival materials probably exacerbate effects of climate.

 

I've noticed there are several folks on these boards that have read extensively or worked in archival science. I find their posts extremely educational and well argued. However, I have not done the definitive experiment that establishes what is necessary to preserve my books to my satisfaction. I find it difficult to judge just how important it is purchase more protective vs less protective materials, because I rarely see preservation or lack of preservation quantified in terms that mean something to me. Because decay or loss of presentation/integrity is a function of multiple factors working with some degree of cooperativity, I think it is hard to take some of these basic science observations about paper acidification etc. and apply them to a specific book stored somehow in a box somewhere in your house (or vault or whatever). I also have a gnawing feeling that the obsession with archival materials is partly seller-driven. Of course it may not be and these folks are doing us all a big favor by pushing this issue.

 

Finally, I also consider the fact that if the books I'm looking to preserve are books I'll never part with, do I care if pages go from OWtoW to OW over the course of 30 years? How much time and $ am I willing to spend to stop this (all with some degree of uncertainty up front)? I guess I'll continue to monitor them with time (and thus ultimately perform that definitive archival test) and see if I need to store them differently.

[insanebidder-migration]

Yeah, I agree that a lot of what drives the archival debate is based upon an archival supplier's statements. It's a time-honored tradition to state that "ones product is the best because "La la la" based on scientific experiments." However, on the other hand, I think the lack of silver age high grade books in today's market when compared to lower grades truly has to mean something pertaining to the aging rate and the lack of true archival supplies back in the 60s-80s. Yes, NM copies of FF #1, AF#1, etc. exist. But not many. And I'm almost certain there were quite a few overly anal collectors back in the 60s just as there are today. After all, comics have been around in the format "we" are somewhat familiar with for a while now. As time goes on I believe people "do" get a little smarter. Now then, can I judge Golden age comics the same way in terms of rarity? No. I think, after comic books being around for 30-40 years in the format we know about, 1960s collectors had a firmer grasp on what one should do to a comic to preserve it. Basic things, that is, like keeping it away from humid environments and away from the sun. But Golden Age? No. I think the majority of them got tossed because they were simply "no longer read" and comic collecting hadn't been around long enough to have some kind of "reason" to keep things or keep them in a better environment. Anyway, I'm sure the "tossing factor" happened with the silver age stuff like it did with Golden age, just not as abundantly. As I stated before, I believe that people "do" get smarter after time. Hopefully, that is.

Anyway, because of the rarity of high grade silver age, I really think that archival methods "have to be" employed to keep our remaining Golden/Silver, and even Bronze age comics in the shapes we want them in. The trouble is, the only true test, as you mentioned, is definitely time itself.

I'm sure some people go way out of their way with absurd experiments concerning protection, as do I, but the community is better as a whole for it. Although the "supreme" environment would probably be a sealed system set to 70 degrees, dehumidified to 50 percent humidity, having an atmosphere of Nitrogen (I think it was Nitrogen the LOC used for a "very" important doc---not sure) which is recirculating to keep out the byproducts of aging, but we are unfortunately not all millionaires.

As for myself, here's the system I am employing, since I am living in Florida, a fantastic state but unfortunately one that is lacking comic collectors because of the harsh environment down here:

 

Box-I use an acid free box with the middle of the lid and bottom of the box lined with 24lb bond Microchamber paper I got from conservation resources.

 

Mylar--4 mil thick BUT with an open top. After seeing a post from a man that sent a member an email from the LOC, it appears as though completely sealing acidic paper "is" considered frowned upon by them. It has to do with the byproducts of acidity not being able to escape. If it was just something I read, then I'd of course have second guesses. However, when I had my first collection back in the 80s, I sealed 1/2 of them and left the other 1/2 unsealed. By 1985 the pages were BETTER in the OPEN ones! So I am starting to believe in open tops now. I know there's going to be a lot of debate about this through the years, but I choose experience. I also use oversized Mylar's so that I have adequate "expelling" room on the sides of the comic before the byproducts are released out of the tops. Also, since the box and lid are sealed COMPLETELY of any ways for air to escape until I open the lid, (A LOT of archival tape) where do the byproduct gasses go? 1. The Microchamber paper lined at the top/bottoms of the box, 2., etc. read on!

 

Microchamber paper--Like CGC, I have a cut piece inserted between the front/back covers. I am also experimenting with placing some between each and every page. However, my only concern with that is, when done, the book's width increases dramatically. Which means the book has to be REALLY flat and squished tightly between other comics to prevent fanning of the pages.

 

Backing boards: I have the "Microchamber" backing boards behind each comic, which are as flimsy as hell. Therefore, behind those I plan on placing E.Gerber buffered 1/2-backs.

 

Temperature--Although the idea environment is 70 degrees, I have to say something about this. How many clothes do you have to wear to feel comfortable? BRRRR man! I know 70 is ideal for comics, but I don't believe it's realistic for humans. I keep my place at 74-75 degrees, and my comic box is stored on a bottom shelf (But high off the floor) in a dark closet. I'm thinking about testing a lower temperature in the "very" small apt. I'm in for preservation sake, but I'm doing it slowly since this place cools down so easily.

 

Humidity--Dessicants are a pain in the [!@#%^&^] as far as recharging goes. I've found something better at Wal-Mart. It's called "Damprid." I have two 12 oz. containers of the stuff inside and in the front of my "prized" comic box and it has dropped to and maintained a 50% humidity level ever since. Once they're done they have to be refilled, but they are CHEAP. If you're worried about the box shifting and the little beads falling out, you could always tie a very breathable piece of mosquito netting over each of the lids so that the humidity can be absorbed but none of the beads would ever risk falling out.

 

Bugs--First, both the lid and the box itself are sealed with some archival tape a friend found me when I lived in Illinois. That probably helps a LOT. Secondly, I place those "Cedar discs" which repel moths and many other types of bugs at the very front and very back of the comic box. When cedar is in direct contact with clothing (Which is the only artifact that has been recorded as having damage within a cedar chest that I can find on the net) it "has" been known to cause some damage. However, when not in "direct" contact it always seems to preserve things quite nicely (Which is how a LOT of old comics and other antiquities are found) and keep away the bugs. Cedar contains a certain chemical which eludes me (Nalpathene or something like that--can't remember) which hasn't really had any reports of being bad "or" good to comics. However, even if some detrimental effects do exist, that's what all the Microchamber paper is for.

 

Now, how's that for anal? . But hey, like I mentioned before, I "do" live in Florida! A haven for high heat, humidity, and bugs.

 

Brent the rambler

 

 

[fantastic_four]

The only archival research I've heard of being done by people in the comics industry was a study someone did of the CGC container a few years ago. Bill Cole and E. Gerber haven't done any research themselves that I've heard them claim, they piggyback on the research and techniques used by the Library of Congress.

[insanebidder-migration]

I can't remember if it was E. Gerber or BCE Mylar, but about a month ago I asked a question pertaining to archival methods to both and one of them told me that they were working on deacidification "sheets" to place within comic pages. Not sure how that'd work, and if it would be true deacidification, but it sounds interesting if it's realistic. I don't know how something like that would be possible without smearing the comic pages somehow. Then again, I know diddly squat about the deacidification process. Anyway, he never gave me a possible date of completion, so it's probably just in its infancy stage.

[Amazing_Bag_man]

Microchamber paper--Like CGC, I have a cut piece inserted between the front/back covers. I am also experimenting with placing some between each and every page. However, my only concern with that is, when done, the book's width increases dramatically. Which means the book has to be REALLY flat and squished tightly between other comics to prevent fanning of the pages

 

Where can an individual like myself go and purchase some of this "Microchamber paper"??

[insanebidder-migration]

Conservation Resources. http://www.conservationresources.com/

 

It's pricey, though.

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

PS--I received the following message from Bill Hollinger clear back in May......

 

"Hi Brent,

 

The 24lb bond paper may be a good choice. The interleaving paper was made for applications where people want some transparency, and as thin a sheet as possible. It’s all cotton, and because it is so thin, runs slowly on the paper machine. So, if you are not looking for these features, you might want to choose one of the more conventional, less expansive MicroChamber papers. There is also another option, the .007” thick version we used for negative envelopes. Typically we add approximately 20 percent (by weight) of the conservation zeolite we developed to the paper, along with the standard 3 percent alkaline buffer. Therefore the thicker (heavier) the paper, the more of this ingredient, which is the one that removes the organic acids, aldehydes, peroxides and other harmful sundry by-products released as the comic book paper ages. As far as color goes, only the folder papers (.012” and .024” thick) have color (tan) added, but these are special pigments which don’t fade or bleed and will not transfer color to an adjacent paper.

 

Thanks for your interest,

 

Bill Hollinger"

 

I thought the above mentioned e-mail would be useful for those wishing to purchase Microchamber for themselves....