Is it just me, or are the OA prices really strong on the HA today?

[kimik]

and let us not forget the housing market.. What's going on in comics is no different.. Eventually the generational change-out will end the market and while ever higher prices are being paid for some things, the comic market in total items, total readership, total publication numbers etc is decreasing because unlike when I was 11 years old and all my frineds loved comics.. kids today are for more interested in X-box games, internet based fun and material things like giant TVs, iPods, and the like and that is where they spend their money.

 

Some things will always be collected.. But like the pulp magazine hobby.. comics have a limited shelf life at this point. It may be 5 years, 10, 20 or whatever.. But at some point... poof!

 

While the number of collectors will shrink, I disagree that comics will have a limited shelf life. Yes, we will probably see the end of printed on paper comics in the next 20 years, but they will still continue digitally. At the least, the characters will continue to exist in cartoons, movies and video games. This will keep generating interest in the both comics and OA. However, it will be key to focus on the comics/OA from popular titles and characters that continue to exist - say Spider-Man, Batman, Superman or the X-Men, for example. You already see this in the comic book market for both Golden and Silver Age books - the popular titles continue to appreciate while the dead companies/titles are stagnant and/or declining.

[Bronty]

 Originally Posted By: comicartcom

and let us not forget the housing market.. What's going on in comics is no different.. Eventually the generational change-out will end the market and while ever higher prices are being paid for some things, the comic market in total items, total readership, total publication numbers etc is decreasing because unlike when I was 11 years old and all my frineds loved comics.. kids today are for more interested in X-box games, internet based fun and material things like giant TVs, iPods, and the like and that is where they spend their money.

 

Some things will always be collected.. But like the pulp magazine hobby.. comics have a limited shelf life at this point. It may be 5 years, 10, 20 or whatever.. But at some point... poof!

 

While the number of collectors will shrink, I disagree that comics will have a limited shelf life. Yes, we will probably see the end of printed on paper comics in the next 20 years, but they will still continue digitally. At the least, the characters will continue to exist in cartoons, movies and video games. .

Let me get this straight; you think that comics will go the way of the dodo and that they will continue to increase in price? Couldn't disagree more. You kill the medium you kill the values, period. Yes key titles will retain more value but everything will tank if comics stop being printed.

[adamstrange]

 Quote:

If the OA market crashes and my collection no longer holds any real value . . . I'll continue to love it.

 

I think this is a very important point. The whole "buy what you love" idiom.

 

I'd also like to make a point about collecting OA vs collecting comics. This was alluded to earlier by others posts.

 

Although I agree with Gene and Felix's comments about "ADD" collectors, I don't see the bottom dropping out of the OA market for a long time, if at all. Why? Because of what tb said about his comic collecting buddies getting into OA. I agree that there is still a lot of iceberg under the water in terms of potential OA collectors.

 

Collectors collect for a number of reasons, but often it's either a completionist aspect or a theme aspect. And they like to be recognized and lauded for finding things that are truly rare (Felix, I'm definitely an attention hound too when it comes to showing off my art -- who isn't?). Well, what's rarer than a one-of-a-kind comic book page of art? OA has so much going for it, and there's no doubt it's becoming more and more popular among collectors. I talk to more and more "comic guys" who are branching out into OA, and many of them either have started or are considering selling their comics to fund art purchases.

 

There are a number of reasons that comic collectors are looking at OA, which include but are not limited to the following:

 

1. Landing a high-grade copy of a particular comic isn't rare or a challenge.

There's too many copies of too many comic books. You can't post a scan of a cool book that hasn't already been shown by 100 other collectors.

 

2. Fears of manipulated comics are buoying the high-grade census and that today's high-est graded copy won't still be the highest tomorrow.

 

3. Financial stability: collectors who are concerned about their investments see OA as a more stable and even faster-appreciating collectible. Most collectors I know, even if they don't want to admit it, keep the value of their collectibles in mind when they make purchases. You rationalize your purchases because "hey, it's going to go up in value!"

 

4. Being able to collect something that's truly one-of-a-kind.

It's been said before, but there are tons of issues of pretty much every comic ever made, with a few exceptions. OA pages are one-and-only.

 

5. You can frame art and hang it on the wall and look at it every day, and other people can look at it and appreciate it too, rather than keep it hidden in a box in a dark closet, possibly encased in plastic so nobody can even touch it.

 

6. The thrill of the hunt.

Let's face it, the internet has ruined the hunt. All you need is money and you can buy a copy of any comic in any grade. Search, point, click, buy. Done. You may never find a certain page of OA, so hunting is fun again! Some of it may not even exist, so the hunt might take a lifetime! THIS is what collecting should be like. Being able to buy every Spider-Man comic from ebay or by walking into a single comic book convention is not exciting. Spending 4 years to track down a specific page to a comic book is exciting. In fact, there are pages I've been searching for that I don't even know if they exist. They could have been thrown away, burned, torn up, lost, or hanging on the wall of a collector in Tokyo or Brussels, but I'm still hoping to locate and buy those pages some day. And not knowing if I will or not makes the hunt even that much more intriguing.

 

OA is just plain different. This is truly the key. If you are the type of collector who wants something truly unique, that nobody else has, that you can post up and get loads of attention and kudos and worship for posting, then OA is for you. If you want to own something that nobody else has, then OA is for you. If you want to be the King of the Collectible, and lord your mind-boggling purchases over the poor masses of wannabees, then OA is for you. If you want a piece of art, that was personally drawn by an artist you admire, OA is for you. If you want something truly unique from a comic book story you fondly remember from childhood, then OA is for you.

 

For all these reasons and many more that I haven't communicated, OA is growing as a collecting focus for comic book collectors (and former comic book collectors).

 

As tb and others pointed out, this is a trend that hasn't even begun to fully manifest. More people will enter the market, many of whom don't bat an eye at dropping hundreds or thousands of dollars on a single comic book; they won't have a problem with paying hundreds or thousands for a truly unique and spectacular piece of art.

 

My verbose

Did Krazy hijack Rhino's account? :baiting:I think you are stating the "best case" scenario for a movement into art. I don't think it's a particularly new trend as most art collectors have started out as comic collectors but it is possible that the maturation of the CGC market may result in an increase in art collectors beyond the normal migration. My first piece of original art was back in 1989 and I've continued to collect comics and art since then. Much of that has to do with the fact that the comics I collect in grade can't be obtained "by a phone call and a credit" keeping the hunt challenging and the fact that I love the colorful images of printed comics as well as the ability to read entire stories. Seeing a bright shiny pretty comic is still enough to extract the dead presidents from my wallet even with the appeal of OA that you list. Some folks will like art, others comics, and still others both. All of these folks can switch back and forth though I will admit that I've not seen anyone switch from art to comics. Everyone's mileage will vary and, given the price of gas, be very expensive.

[r1982rhoads]

Sorry to chime in late, but I echo some prior posts about not caring if the bottom falls a bit out of the comic art market. I don't think it will happen, and if a correction occurs, I doubt it would be a drastic one. I'm not too worried if my pieces fall in value at all, because I never bought anything with the intention of selling. Like a lot of collectors, I came into the game a bit too late to afford a Kirby cover, a Kurtzman war cover, or other pieces that I'd like to have. With a nice fall in prices, maybe that dream could come true. But, over the years, I have met or communicated with a lot of collectors who wouldn't be rushing to the exits to dump their pieces if prices started to drop. Most, at least I believe, are like me and would be salivating to buy pieces at prices they saw 10 years ago (or even 5 years ago), if they reoccurred. The market has a lot of stability, and I believe prices are going to be sticky to the downside. For me, bottom line is if you buy what you like, chase a piece you been looking for years and just plain love the stuff, you have nothing to worry about. If you are stupid about it, buying stuff to flip or not using good judgement, you won't get the most out of the hobby.

 

I've been selling most of my comic collection to fund new OA purchases, and have been having a blast doing it. If I want to read the comic, I pick up a trade. GA and SA books are nice, but how many times do you realistically flip through yorur boxes a year? Once or twice...? OA gives off a vibe, an energy. The thrill of the hunt, the one of a kind aspect, etc...just adds to it.

[kimik]

Let me get this straight; you think that comics will go the way of the dodo and that they will continue to increase in price? Couldn't disagree more. You kill the medium you kill the values, period. Yes key titles will retain more value but everything will tank if comics stop being printed.

 

It is going to happen whether we like it or not, but I still think that key titles will continue to go up in value. Look at pulps, for example. The medium has been toast for what, 50 years, yet the prices continue to increase for key titles/characters. I would argue the same thing for antique books. Even when every book is electronic there will always be demand for the key/popular originals.

[omegaman]

I have mostly bounced around between "Excitement" and "Thrill" in my 30+ years of collecting comics and comic art. Of course there's the "Euphoria" of aqcuiring a great art. Sometimes, if I spend a lot of money on a piece, I will have some "Anxiety" but it doesn't take me long to renew my "Optimism" and then I'm right back to "Excitment" and "Thrill". I can't think of a time of experienced any of the emotions like "Fear", "Desperation" or "Panic" in my long collecting career. It may be fun to contemplate, but I think it's difficult to correlate financial market concepts to our hobby. Our hobby is a mixture of passion and investment and its the passion part that continues to drive the hobby and throw it off the curve.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

 Originally Posted By: Bronty

Let me get this straight; you think that comics will go the way of the dodo and that they will continue to increase in price? Couldn't disagree more. You kill the medium you kill the values, period. Yes key titles will retain more value but everything will tank if comics stop being printed.

 

It is going to happen whether we like it or not, but I still think that key titles will continue to go up in value. Look at pulps, for example. The medium has been toast for what, 50 years, yet the prices continue to increase for key titles/characters. I would argue the same thing for antique books. Even when every book is electronic there will always be demand for the key/popular originals.

come on now. pulps are worth some money, and of course comics would continue to be worth some money. but if you kill the medium you kill a lot of the upside. you kill the ability for the collectible to rise at really high returns because the collector pool shrinks. to use your own example of pulps, if the medium was still around today the All-Story with the first tarzan would be worth more than Action 1. But its worth a small fraction instead.

[kimik]

come on now. pulps are worth some money, and of course comics would continue to be worth some money. but if you kill the medium you kill a lot of the upside. you kill the ability for the collectible to rise at really high returns because the collector pool shrinks. to use your own example of pulps, if the medium was still around today the All-Story with the first tarzan would be worth more than Action 1. But its worth a small fraction instead.

 

I have only been collecting pulps for the past 9 or 10 years, but in that time I have seen them rise from a relatively small niche market to fairly mainstream. Prices now are multiples of what you would have seen just a few years back because more collectors have moved from comics/books into pulps. I have kicked myself several times for passing up solid VG or better copies of Weird Tales December 1932 with the first appearance of Conan for $500 - $700 when I first started collecting pulps. Now a decent copy of it will fetch the same price as a lot of desireable mid grade GA or SA books.

 

Action #1 would still be worth more than All-Story even if the pulps had kept going strong because of the relevance of Superman vs. a skin-clad dude with long hair swinging through the jungle in today's society. Wasn't one of the WDC&S's considered to be the holy grail of comic collecting a while back as well? Superman started the superhero theme that we all know and love today and as a result Action #1 would have been the most valuable comic/pulp regardless. However, if the stories had come out 100 years earlier when the big thing for wealthy European boys/men was to go to Africa to test their mettle then Tarzan would have won hands down.

 

Looking at the example of Tarzan, the All Story with his 1st appearance is still a desireable collectible now due to the popularity of the movies, Disney movie/cartoon, etc. Without the continuing exposure in other mediums the early pulps/books would be basically worthless just like a large number of GA comics are/will be due to a lack of continued character exposure.

 

 

[Aman619]

Tarzan will be 100 years old very soon..... love him or loathe him, he's as American as Superman, exploited in all media. too bad he started as a pulp...

[comicartcom]

 Originally Posted By: Bronty

come on now. pulps are worth some money, and of course comics would continue to be worth some money. but if you kill the medium you kill a lot of the upside. you kill the ability for the collectible to rise at really high returns because the collector pool shrinks. to use your own example of pulps, if the medium was still around today the All-Story with the first tarzan would be worth more than Action 1. But its worth a small fraction instead.

 

I have only been collecting pulps for the past 9 or 10 years, but in that time I have seen them rise from a relatively small niche market to fairly mainstream. Prices now are multiples of what you would have seen just a few years back because more collectors have moved from comics/books into pulps. I have kicked myself several times for passing up solid VG or better copies of Weird Tales December 1932 with the first appearance of Conan for $500 - $700 when I first started collecting pulps. Now a decent copy of it will fetch the same price as a lot of desireable mid grade GA or SA books.

 

Action #1 would still be worth more than All-Story even if the pulps had kept going strong because of the relevance of Superman vs. a skin-clad dude with long hair swinging through the jungle in today's society. Wasn't one of the WDC&S's considered to be the holy grail of comic collecting a while back as well? Superman started the superhero theme that we all know and love today and as a result Action #1 would have been the most valuable comic/pulp regardless. However, if the stories had come out 100 years earlier when the big thing for wealthy European boys/men was to go to Africa to test their mettle then Tarzan would have won hands down.

 

Looking at the example of Tarzan, the All Story with his 1st appearance is still a desireable collectible now due to the popularity of the movies, Disney movie/cartoon, etc. Without the continuing exposure in other mediums the early pulps/books would be basically worthless just like a large number of GA comics are/will be due to a lack of continued character exposure.

sorry, you are unfortunately wrong... if you are talking about the entire breadth of pulp collecting. If you are only talking about Shadows, Doc Savage, the Spider, Weird Tales, Black Mask, Terror Tales and about 20 other titles.. Oh yes you are absolutely correct.however if you're talking about Argosy, Detective Fiction Weekly, Amazing Stories (except pre 1930), Famous Fantastic Mysteries or hundreds of other titles.. You are totally wrong.98% of all pulp titles are collected by such a tiny population that they are almost totally forgotten and there are no completist collectors in pulp collecting as there were 20 years ago. I'm talking about the collectors who want a copy of every pulp ever printed which would be equal to someone collecting every DC comicEven paperback collectors are more greater in number than pulp collectors - unless you are talking about the 2% of pulp titles still collected by lots of people and most of those collectors are comic book collectors who want the cross-over characters.the best place to see the dearth of pulp collecting only need to look at Pulpcon in Dayton. I think it was last week (I haven't been there in 3 years). In 1985 there were 300 people attending. Today there are 125-150 attendees and every year 5 more of them are R.I.P. It is no longer a vibrant hobby - if ever it really was vibrant - and each year Argosys, Western Story, Astounding and Wonder Stories are worth less and less because fewer and fewer people want them.. which is.. Holy Pulp, Batman - the same thing that is currently happening to golden age titles published by the third world publishers and to even titles that DC published for which there is no connection to contemporary comics.I'm also sorry to say that even though Superman and Batman have long futures in cinema, their futures in comic books are bleak. The publishing business is dying faster then the polar ice cap is melting because younger generations don't like to read as much as the older generations do/did and while at some point the publishers will probably go to internet or software purchase (I tried to push both companies in that direction 10 years ago when I began ComicsOnCDRom.. to say they laughed at me is putting it mildly. they aren't visonary people, if you know what I mean) going in that direction will not create new comic collectors in the way that would keep the hobby healthy. Look, 15 years ago I think there were almost 4000-5000 comic shops in the USA. Now there are about 1000-1500. You don't think that's because those stores sell better comic books than the stores now closed do you? It's because readership keeps declining. During WW2, Captain Marvel sold 2 million copies a month. Every publisher today comibined does not total 2 million copies a month. The all time winner of course was Walt Disney's Comics & Stories which sold 4 million copies a month in the early to mid 40s - which is just unimaginable today.So while a collapse is certainly not immenent, it will happen sooner or later and the higher the prices go, believe it or not that hastens the advance toward the precipice because as prices go higher, more customers get frozen out.By the way.. it can and does happen to art all the time also.For instance, Flash Gordon sunday pages by Raymond took a steep dive when 2 collectors stopped buying them in 1993 and it took almost 7 years for them to regain a lost position based on price. Even Don Vernon's page that just sold for $77K may not have been a good investment as a matter of fact. I think Don bought that page in 1990 for $25k. Invested money approximately doubles every 10 years, so that 25K would be almost $100k in 2008 if it had been invested wiselyMutt & Jeff comic strips: you're talking about one of the most popular strips of all time. They were worth more 30 years ago than they are today both in retail price and most certainly in real dollars. Something that sold for $300 in 1978 and only sells for $400 today is a loss of almost 80% of it's value if you just had your money in the bank accruing interest for 30 years30 years ago, nobody thought Mutt & Jeff art would lose value or interest. So there isn't any reason to think that those Jim Aparo or Rich Buckler covers or even Nick Cardy and Jim Mooney will not be forgotten in the same way.The march of time leaves behind many memories

[kimik]

I am not referring to depth/breadth of pulps or comics and agree with you that only 20-25 pulp titles are worth pursuing (if that). Comics will follow the same suit eventually. Just like any other collectibles, only the characters that endure will continue to hold value. Here is my original comment that I tried to convey that with:

 

"While the number of collectors will shrink, I disagree that comics will have a limited shelf life. Yes, we will probably see the end of printed on paper comics in the next 20 years, but they will still continue digitally. At the least, the characters will continue to exist in cartoons, movies and video games. This will keep generating interest in the both comics and OA. However, it will be key to focus on the comics/OA from popular titles and characters that continue to exist - say Spider-Man, Batman, Superman or the X-Men, for example. You already see this in the comic book market for both Golden and Silver Age books - the popular titles continue to appreciate while the dead companies/titles are stagnant and/or declining. "

 

The same theme plays out whether you collect antiques, books, art, stamps, coins, sportscards, etc. - common/less popular items do not appreciate/depreciate in value over time. I agree that once a character loses cultural relevance/is no longer featured in any medium they will no longer be valued except by us geezers who are still around 50 years from now cherishing the memories of our youth. However, I would argue that long after comics have gone totally digital the prices of Action #1, Detective #27 or AF #15 and popular titles will still continue to rise due to continued demand for the these iconic characters. At the same time, lesser titles with no alternative medium outreach will become worthless, just like a lot of GA and SA dead titles/characters are today. Unfortunately, at this point the hobby will belong to the wealthy primarily just like high end art, books, stamps, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Sharkey]

Did Krazy hijack Rhino's account?

 

Ooohh. You wound me, sir.

 

I agree with you that everyone's mileage will vary and that the migration of comic book collectors to OA collectors has been going on for a while. But it seems to be accelerating, even to the point that when I go to comic conventions like Wizard World, almost every dealer has at least a few pages of OA at their booth. This was unheard of several years ago. The two aspects of collecting are converging, and what I'm seeing is that people who were into comics because of the hunt are seeing OA as a more interesting and challenging type of game to bag.

 

If you had an 8.0 copy of ASM 1, would you trade it for a killer OA splash or cover? I know I would, in a heartbeat. In fact, that's what I did with most of my comic collection.

 

Adam, there's no doubt that collecting comics will still appeal to people, and I understand your reasons for continuing to collect them. It's fun, they look good, and are enjoyable to read. I'm just saying that more and more comic fans are seeing art as another logical step in their collecting habits.

 

Steve (most definitely NOT KK) ,...

[delekkerste]

Steve (most definitely NOT KK) ,...

 

SHILL!!!

[Ares]

 

Steve (most definitely NOT KK) ,...

Prove it

[Sharkey]

Prove it

 

I post my art.

 

'nuff said!

[Sharkey]

SHILL!!!

 

 

BTW, what's up with the quote function? It's including all the HTML formatting.

[dem1138]

"If you had an 8.0 copy of ASM 1, would you trade it for a killer OA splash or cover?" == Rhino

 

HEY! I did just that! Actually, it was for a great Kirby page -- does that still count? It was a few years ago.

[Sharkey]

"If you had an 8.0 copy of ASM 1, would you trade it for a killer OA splash or cover?" == Rhino

HEY! I did just that! Actually, it was for a great Kirby page -- does that still count? It was a few years ago.

 

It counts!

[Bronty]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Or maybe you're emotionally/financially invested and are having trouble looking at it rationally? Certainly action 1 will always be desirable but to think that the price will continue to grow at these rates once comic book publishing as an industry has bit the dust is pure krazy.

I am not referring to depth/breadth of pulps or comics and agree with you that only 20-25 pulp titles are worth pursuing (if that). Comics will follow the same suit eventually. Just like any other collectibles, only the characters that endure will continue to hold value. Here is my original comment that I tried to convey that with:

 

"While the number of collectors will shrink, I disagree that comics will have a limited shelf life. Yes, we will probably see the end of printed on paper comics in the next 20 years, but they will still continue digitally. At the least, the characters will continue to exist in cartoons, movies and video games. This will keep generating interest in the both comics and OA. However, it will be key to focus on the comics/OA from popular titles and characters that continue to exist - say Spider-Man, Batman, Superman or the X-Men, for example. You already see this in the comic book market for both Golden and Silver Age books - the popular titles continue to appreciate while the dead companies/titles are stagnant and/or declining. "

 

The same theme plays out whether you collect antiques, books, art, stamps, coins, sportscards, etc. - common/less popular items do not appreciate/depreciate in value over time. I agree that once a character loses cultural relevance/is no longer featured in any medium they will no longer be valued except by us geezers who are still around 50 years from now cherishing the memories of our youth. However, I would argue that long after comics have gone totally digital the prices of Action #1, Detective #27 or AF #15 and popular titles will still continue to rise due to continued demand for the these iconic characters. At the same time, lesser titles with no alternative medium outreach will become worthless, just like a lot of GA and SA dead titles/characters are today. Unfortunately, at this point the hobby will belong to the wealthy primarily just like high end art, books, stamps, etc.

 

 

 

[Bronty]

Tarzan will be 100 years old very soon..... love him or loathe him, he's as American as Superman, exploited in all media. too bad he started as a pulp...

 

exactly. the average person on the street is just as familiar with tarzan, maybe more so, than with superman.

 

I think some comic collectors grossly exaggerate the impact that cultural saturation has on price (except on like-minded collectors!) and use the "hey everybody knows this character" line to justify price.

 

If that's all there was to pricing something like a 1st edition Dickens' A Christmas Carol should be worth megabucks as both a famous story known by the person on the street and as the inspiration for countless ripoffs/homages, my dear favorite Uncle Scrooge McDuck included. But instead a nm copy of random decent GA timely or dc is worth more.

 

Hmm, don't think the average person on the street is too familiar with All Winners #1... yet its worth more than Mr. Dickens.

 

Fact is you need the collectors/demand to outstrip supply and when the medium dies the stagnation and slow death of the collector pool is imminent.