Do You Want Fries With That?

[NewWorldOrder]

PRESSING

[NewWorldOrder]

I still feel that there is NO obligation for the seller to have to disclose "pressing."

 

If the buyer asks I think morally the seller should tell the truth, but other than that I say no.

 

CGC doesn't give it a special label, so why should the seller have to.

 

 

[thirdgreenham]

Do You Want Fries With That?

 

Yes, please. (thumbs u

 

Andy

[mylar_mike-migration]

CGC doesn't give it a special label, so why should the seller have to.

 

Because the seller knows for sure the book was pressed, CGC does not.

[NewWorldOrder]

 Originally Posted By: spiderman-on-tilt

CGC doesn't give it a special label, so why should the seller have to.

 

Because the seller knows for sure the book was pressed, CGC does not.

thats my point, CGC does not recognize pressing as resto, so why should the seller have to disclose.

[NewWorldOrder]

what u dont think then they get submissions from account Classics Inc. CGC doesn't know that the chances of some the books having been pressed is great......

[Matt Nelson]

 Originally Posted By: MrBedrock

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

 

I do believe there is a distinction between pressing a hard to find GA book for aesthetics and pressing an already aesthetically pleasing 9.2 of a common SA book into a 9.6. I failed to make that distinction in my initial response to MacMan, but that's because I was assuming he was speaking about SA, which seems to be his primary collecting focus.

 

With that being said, if you expect me to believe that Matt's pressing business is flourishing largely a result of collectors such as yourself getting the odd, tough to find GA book pressed for mainly aesthetic reasons, I just can't do that. So yes, I'm making the assumption that the primary reason to press a book is to profit, or to bump up the grade on the label which in itself is profiting in the sense that it is raising the overall status of your collection, even if that collection is going to be locked up.

 

And anyway, in this hobby and particularly on this board, hearing that someone has "no intention of ever selling" a book very much reminds me of wedding vows; they're made with good intentions and come from a place of "love", yet they tend to have little to meaning in the long run. Things change.

 

I refuse to accept that you spend the money you do(I've seen some of your books ) on your collection without considering their potential resale value, regardless of whether you think you're ever going to sell or not. But that's a different topic all together.

 

I do concede that there are instances where the act of pressing itself may not be motivated entirely by money, but I really do believe that those instances are the vast minority.

Andrew,I really agree with what you are saying and lets look at Matt's business model and the memo release to see if it can be better illustrated. Look at the changes to the tiers he has made - The modern roll back is intended to foster business and pressing submissions in books from 1975-1980 at a cost of $12 / book.Think about that for a second? How many books from 1975-1980 are worth investing $12 in, especially books from 1978-1980? Not many, and the majority of those are going to be books in super HG (9.4 non-keys, or 9.2 Keys). So I have to ask myself why would someone press a 9.4 non-key book from 1978? Especially when you can go and get another one for $8-10? The answer is to get it to 9.6, or more preferably 9.8. Then ask yourself why someone would invest money in a 9.4 book from that era for the potential to bring it to 9.8?There is the registry set, granted. But I gotta tell you my psychology of registry set owners is that they would probably go slap down the extra $75-100 for the non-key already slabbed in 9.8 from that era than waste time taking a 9.4 and turning it into a 9.8. Though they may spend the time in the SA portion of their set taking a 9.0 and pressing it to 9.4 or 9.6 if the right book presented itself. The key being that the person actually doing the pressing is doing it to cater to the registry HG market, rather than doing it for books in their own collection. I'm not saying this is always the case but I believe it to be the flow of the business in the majority of cases.I sincerely believe that if you were able to track the next 1000 submissions in this tier, more than 80% of them would be offered for sale within 30 days of being received in final slabbed format by their submitters, maybe even more. This scale would probably decline as you approach the GA, but remain very heavy in the BA and SA related tiers, never dipping below 60% is my guess.The whole pre screen assessment service to the pressing also lends support to Andrews argument that these books are destined for slabs and resale in very short order the majority of the time. I believe and continue to believe that pressing is not a conservation technique in 90% + of the books its performed on, its a market technique designed to maximize revenue. Whether that's good or bad for the hobby is another debate, but the reason why its happening in my opinion is not really debatable anymore. Rgs,Jason

Hi everyone, there's interesting points people are making here, and I'd like to share my thoughts. I agree with Captain of Industry's post above. I don't think we can seperate the money aspect from collecting when it comes to comics of any value. Besides maybe the guy who sits digging through the quarter bin for hours on end at his local store. He probably has no interest in long term value of his collection. But a person's concern for their collection's value is always in the front or the back of their mind...it's there. If I spend $100 on a comic, I expect to make money over time. I don't expect to sell it for $75 next year, or I'd have no business spending $100 on a funny book. One thing I've learned is never say never when it comes to selling your books. I've seen the most hard-core collectors sell their prized possessions off. The reasons vary, but inevitably all books change hands over enough passage of time. Buyers ultimately become sellers, which is why I find the attempt to distinguish the two hazy at best. Same with dealers vs. collectors. Today's market makes it so easy to sell that many "collectors" have substantially increased their transactions (both buying and selling) to the point where some may actually do more "business" than a few of the dealers. In fact, it's getting harder to operate as a traditional dealer because many original owner collections are bypassing them, and the secondary market has shifted to online trading websites. For Jason's post, yes, many pressed books quickly find their way to CGC. Pressing most benefits high grade books, which is the target audience for CGC. They all go hand in hand. And yes, Registry set building plays an important role in the desire to press. There are guys out there who don't want to waste their time digging through raw books, hoping to find a potential upgrade for their set. They'd rather plunk the $100 down for a 9.8. And for every one of those guys, there's another guy, or three, who is more than willing to buy a raw book out of a box for $5, spend $12 on pressing, $12 on grading, $2 on shipping (if he does a bunch at once), get his 9.8 and sell the book to the "lazy" guy for roughly $70 profit. But there's plenty of guys who either want to cut the middleman out, or get their 9.8's as fast as they can, and will do the tedious digging through raw books themselves. And some absolutely love the concept of set building just for the sake of ego (and nothing wrong with that!). To them money is actually secondary to the d**k waiving. My point is that there are several types of collectors and several types of motivations at play here. The guys who are doing the slabbing (and pressing) are part of a large transition going on, where all the great material in this hobby--whether it be high grade, high value, high demand, or all three--is getting graded and sold to the next guy in line. There is no distinction as to who does it. If one sees the possibility of making their investment more viable when they sell their books using CGC or pressing, then most will consider it. If they choose not to, the guy who buys their books probably will, or the next guy. All the best stuff will eventually find its way into slabs. Don't mean to insult the anti-slabbers out there. But CGC has created a system that is, for the first time, quantifying what is actually out there in our hobby. It is not a perfect system, but I feel that it greatly strenghthens the market as a whole. It certainly makes it more interesting. Matt

[Park]

The graders don't know who they are from.

[Matt Nelson]

I was just doing a little math in my head (which is making it hurt) and here's what I came up with...

At the height of the bronze age Marvel, DC and other publishers all together put out around 100 comics a month (maybe more, maybe less, but somewhere in that range). I would imagine that the average print run was probably north of 100,000 copies of each issue, but for the purpose here we can use that number. That would mean that roughly ten million comics were printed each month. 120 million comics a year, 1.2 billion comics over the ten year period we commonly refer to as the bronze age.

I imagine it will take a very long time for Matt Nelson and his minions to go through each and every remaining comic from that time. In the meantime, those of you who would prefer your comics unpressed should have quite a large group of books to choose from.

Actually, we pressed our 500,000,000th bronze book last month, so we're almost halfway there.

[NewWorldOrder]

The graders don't know who they are from.

 

right ......just like CGC takes their time with every book they get.

 

just being realistic

[Park]

Matt,

 

Is there a reason why you do not disclose which books you sell that have been pressed without being asked?

 

And if you did disclose upfront, do you think that would have an effect on your sales or prices realized?

[Park]

 Originally Posted By: Park

The graders don't know who they are from.

 

right ......just like CGC takes their time with every book they get.

 

just being realistic

Granted, I do not work there but from what I have seen around these boards the graders don't know who submitted them. Obviously if it is a well known book it would be kind of hard. Some guy around here named Borock might know better than I.

[mylar_mike-migration]

thats my point, CGC does not recognize pressing as resto, so why should the seller have to disclose.

 

So they buyer can make an informed decision? (I haven't said it was Resto, but the book has been manipulated).

Why hide the fact that a book has been pressed? Using your reasoning, being pressed is a positive selling point. Wouldn't you advertise a positive selling point?

[NewWorldOrder]

 Originally Posted By: spiderman-on-tilt

thats my point, CGC does not recognize pressing as resto, so why should the seller have to disclose.

 

So they buyer can make an informed decision? (I haven't said it was Resto, but the book has been manipulated).

Why hide the fact that a book has been pressed? Using your reasoning, being pressed is a positive selling point. Wouldn't you advertise a positive selling point?

If they ask I would disclose, but other than that, I would not.

[Matt Nelson]

 Originally Posted By: Burntboy

 Originally Posted By: MCMiles

I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

 

When i spent 4 days in NYC at the Con this past April working with Byron Jones (TVComics), I was NEVER asked a single time by HUNDREDS of prospective buyers, whether any books we were offering had been pressed. and we dealt with lots of board members as well as many dealers.

 

I have to believe that "disclosure" is a desired concept of the vocal MINORITY. not saying i don't empathize, but with no one asking any questions about pressing, i find it hard to believe that a majority of hobbyists find the practice so distasteful...

 

There are two assumptions here Harry.

 

1. That the prospective buyers were aware of the practice of pressing and that they understand the implications. Again I'll use the insider trading analogy, in that the tactic is only successful, or the degree of its success is magnified by its proliferation, or lack there of. Another way to put it, is the sure thing at the track doesn't mean much if everyone is in the know and the odds are so small as to make the money bet not worth your time.

 

2. Acceptance. Related to the first point, if they do know they may not care, or they may have factored their awareness into their inquires without telling you. For example taking the position that all new label slabs in the SA are worth 10% less than the GPA for their Old Label brethren.

 

Um on that note, is the current list of what you have left still valid on the website? I'd like to see about owning one of your books

jbud, I like your posts! From my perspective, the majority of those who I deal with just don't care that much about disclosure. After all the hoopla the past few years, you'd think that of all people, I would be the one inundated with questions about what was pressed every time I ran ebay auctions or set up at a show. But I can honestly say it rarely ever comes up.

[MrBedrock]

 Originally Posted By: MrBedrock

I was just doing a little math in my head (which is making it hurt) and here's what I came up with...<br />At the height of the bronze age Marvel, DC and other publishers all together put out around 100 comics a month (maybe more, maybe less, but somewhere in that range). I would imagine that the average print run was probably north of 100,000 copies of each issue, but for the purpose here we can use that number. That would mean that roughly ten million comics were printed each month. 120 million comics a year, <b>1.2 billion comics </b>over the ten year period we commonly refer to as the bronze age. <br />I imagine it will take a very long time for Matt Nelson and his minions to go through each and every remaining comic from that time. In the meantime, those of you who would prefer your comics unpressed should have quite a large group of books to choose from.

 

Actually, we pressed our 500,000,000th bronze book last month, so we're almost halfway there.

Then I take back what I said about you being lazy and slow!

[Matt Nelson]

Pressing is definitely a hot topic. I personally would never have a book pressed or buy a book that I knew was pressed. But if I buy a book that is pressed "Cie La Vie". I have a question. Does pressing lengthen the book at all? If the pressing straigtens out the crease it would seem that it would lengthen the book by a small margin. Also does the book lose it's gloss when it is pressed or does it become too glossy? At the moment it seems that pressing has not destroyed the hobby. In fact there are still not that many 9.8's before 1970. But I do believe one thing would happen.

 

If pressing becomes abundant. To the point where 9.8's that used to be $1,000 are now only $75. There will be something done about it. CGC is a business. And the fact is if $1,000 graded books become $75 graded books less people will want to get their books graded. If that happens CGC starts to lose money. Like any business if they recognize an act that is costing them a loss of money they will take steps to try to stop the act from destroying their business. At the moment submissions are greater than ever for CGC. At the moment pressing still has not effected the price of high grade comics. If for some reason pressing does start to effect price on high grade comics something will probably be done.

The problem here is that you're making a general assumption that every single book will turn up so many 9.8's that values will plummet over 90%, which won't be the case. This is what's so exciting about the census and the registry sets in the coming years. So little has been slabbed at this point there's no telling what will sustain and what will not. Imagine Spidey #100-200 in ten years. Some may have fifty 9.8 copies, while a few may still only have 3 or 4. Some books will die over the years, and others will launch into the stratasphere, reaching heights we could only laugh at now (Spidey #151 in 9.8 fetching $20,000 one day? it's possible). It's a balance between the number of CGC collectors, the money they invest in the hobby, and the flow of new CGC material into the market.

[Matt Nelson]

 Originally Posted By: Flaming_Telepath

(1) Jason Ewert

(2) Heritage

(3) Danny Dupcak

(4) Production line pressing for profit

(5) bluechip's 'unrestored' restored Action #1

(6) Jeff Delaney's Batman #1

(7) eBay sellers

(8) Marketplace sellers

(9) Disbarred lawyers receiving 'awards' for collections built with misappropriated clients' funds

(10) Trimmed books still getting past CGC...and consequently being legitimised

 

Believe it or not, I wasn't attempting to start another pressing thread, but rather express my sadness at the overall state of the industry...in which undisclosed pressing plays its part.

 

I've heard all about the old 'Wild West' days, but I'm no longer buying it. I lived through them, bought and sold through them, and I can tell you with absolute certainly that it has never been as bad as it is now.

 

Big Numbers = Big Bucks = Utter Greed

 

And before someone pipes in with the old 'multiples of Guide have always been paid for high grade books', you might want to add '...that were keys or genuinely scarce.'

 

Because the money being paid these days for any old piece of complete sh!te with a Big Number at the top left is not only ridiculous, but it's also the reason for all the corruption.

I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly. Based on my experience buying and selling in the '90s, I found unethical behavior considerably more rampant than it is now. And I'm willing to bet this was even more true in the '80s.

[adamstrange]

 Originally Posted By: restoman

 Originally Posted By: MrBedrock

I was just doing a little math in my head (which is making it hurt) and here's what I came up with...<br />At the height of the bronze age Marvel, DC and other publishers all together put out around 100 comics a month (maybe more, maybe less, but somewhere in that range). I would imagine that the average print run was probably north of 100,000 copies of each issue, but for the purpose here we can use that number. That would mean that roughly ten million comics were printed each month. 120 million comics a year, <b>1.2 billion comics </b>over the ten year period we commonly refer to as the bronze age. <br />I imagine it will take a very long time for Matt Nelson and his minions to go through each and every remaining comic from that time. In the meantime, those of you who would prefer your comics unpressed should have quite a large group of books to choose from.

 

Actually, we pressed our 500,000,000th bronze book last month, so we're almost halfway there.

Then I take back what I said about you being lazy and slow!

What about ugly and stupid? Are you taking those back?

[NewWorldOrder]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Flaming_Telepath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(1) Jason Ewert<br />(2) Heritage<br />(3) Danny Dupcak<br />(4) Production line pressing for profit<br />(5) bluechip's 'unrestored' restored Action #1<br />(6) Jeff Delaney's Batman #1<br />(7) eBay sellers<br />(8) Marketplace sellers <img src="http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/893whatthe.gif" alt="\:o" title="whatthe" height="20" width="15" /><br />(9) Disbarred lawyers receiving 'awards' for collections built with misappropriated clients' funds<br />(10) Trimmed books still getting past CGC...and consequently being legitimised </div></div><br /><br />Believe it or not, I wasn't attempting to start another pressing thread, but rather express my sadness at the overall state of the industry...in which undisclosed pressing plays its part.<br /><br />I've heard all about the old 'Wild West' days, but I'm no longer buying it. I lived through them, bought and sold through them, and I can tell you with absolute certainly that it has never been as bad as it is now.<br /><br />Big Numbers = Big Bucks = Utter Greed<br /><br />And before someone pipes in with the old <i>'multiples of Guide have always been paid for high grade books'</i>, you might want to add <i>'...that were keys or genuinely scarce.'</i><br /><br />Because the money being paid these days for any old piece of complete sh!te with a Big Number at the top left is not only ridiculous, but it's also the reason for all the corruption. <img src="http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/frown.gif" alt="\:\(" title="frown" height="15" width="15" />

 

I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly. Based on my experience buying and selling in the '90s, I found unethical behavior considerably more rampant than it is now. And I'm willing to bet this was even more true in the '80s.

Hey Matt :hi:Thanks for coming on and taking slack from these hounds and being a good sport! (thumbs uOT How my ASM 121 looking?