Do You Want Fries With That?

[Sal]

Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is time.

 

The press merely - no pun intended - compresses the amount of time the book needs to be manipulated in order to improve its appearance. So, while a book under a stack might flatten out over a decade or so (or it might not, I've not done this particular experiment) a localised press can get the job done in ten minutes. But theoretically the outcome is the same in either case

[buttock]

 Originally Posted By: OldGuy

 Originally Posted By: awe4one

 Originally Posted By: Monkeyman

I literally had to peel the covers off the front pages. At the time I didn't know about pressing and wondered what was going on. You may find pressed books that open up normally, but is only because the presser unstuck everything before sending it back to you

 

You can buy raw books from a couple sellers in the Forum marketplace where this occurs...

 

Jim

 

Raw books aren't pressed.

 

How is it so clear that this book has been pressed? There's a dust shadow on the spine, and there's a reciprocal shadow on the opposite edge that matches the one on the spine. Maybe the book that was sitting on top of this one was tilted ever so slightly and you got the dust shadow from that. I mean why the hell would someone press that book? Spooky 124, really? You gonna spend $35 to press that? Good luck with that flip. If you sent that book in to Matt N, I'm quite sure he'd recommend you NOT press it for several reasons. One of which is the fact that due to the dust shadow it would be obvious that it were pressed. For you to show that as the example of how you can detect pressed books is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's also circular logic to say, "I can detect how pressed books look based on the fact that they lool pressed" (which is effectively what you're doing.)And Roy, for pointing out the microchamber paper, etc... and three That argument didn't hold much water, eh?

[buttock]

Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is time.

 

The press merely - no pun intended - compresses the amount of time the book needs to be manipulated in order to improve its appearance. So, while a book under a stack might flatten out over a decade or so (or it might not, I've not done this particular experiment) a localised press can get the job done in ten minutes. But theoretically the outcome is the same in either case

No no no no no... JC said there are simple principles of physics that make this different. You've got it all wrong Sal. I'm sure he'll explain it in due time... right JC?

[buttock]

Oh, and on the spooky there's a dust shadow on the TOP too. In just the exact configuration you'd expect to see with the other two dust shadows.

 

Nice "press" job...

[Sal]

It's possible Jim had that book pressed as an experiment, you know

[jbud73]

 Originally Posted By: MrBedrock

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

 

I do believe there is a distinction between pressing a hard to find GA book for aesthetics and pressing an already aesthetically pleasing 9.2 of a common SA book into a 9.6. I failed to make that distinction in my initial response to MacMan, but that's because I was assuming he was speaking about SA, which seems to be his primary collecting focus.

 

With that being said, if you expect me to believe that Matt's pressing business is flourishing largely a result of collectors such as yourself getting the odd, tough to find GA book pressed for mainly aesthetic reasons, I just can't do that. So yes, I'm making the assumption that the primary reason to press a book is to profit, or to bump up the grade on the label which in itself is profiting in the sense that it is raising the overall status of your collection, even if that collection is going to be locked up.

 

And anyway, in this hobby and particularly on this board, hearing that someone has "no intention of ever selling" a book very much reminds me of wedding vows; they're made with good intentions and come from a place of "love", yet they tend to have little to meaning in the long run. Things change.

 

I refuse to accept that you spend the money you do(I've seen some of your books ) on your collection without considering their potential resale value, regardless of whether you think you're ever going to sell or not. But that's a different topic all together.

 

I do concede that there are instances where the act of pressing itself may not be motivated entirely by money, but I really do believe that those instances are the vast minority.

Andrew,I really agree with what you are saying and lets look at Matt's business model and the memo release to see if it can be better illustrated. Look at the changes to the tiers he has made - The modern roll back is intended to foster business and pressing submissions in books from 1975-1980 at a cost of $12 / book.Think about that for a second? How many books from 1975-1980 are worth investing $12 in, especially books from 1978-1980? Not many, and the majority of those are going to be books in super HG (9.4 non-keys, or 9.2 Keys). So I have to ask myself why would someone press a 9.4 non-key book from 1978? Especially when you can go and get another one for $8-10? The answer is to get it to 9.6, or more preferably 9.8. Then ask yourself why someone would invest money in a 9.4 book from that era for the potential to bring it to 9.8?There is the registry set, granted. But I gotta tell you my psychology of registry set owners is that they would probably go slap down the extra $75-100 for the non-key already slabbed in 9.8 from that era than waste time taking a 9.4 and turning it into a 9.8. Though they may spend the time in the SA portion of their set taking a 9.0 and pressing it to 9.4 or 9.6 if the right book presented itself. The key being that the person actually doing the pressing is doing it to cater to the registry HG market, rather than doing it for books in their own collection. I'm not saying this is always the case but I believe it to be the flow of the business in the majority of cases.I sincerely believe that if you were able to track the next 1000 submissions in this tier, more than 80% of them would be offered for sale within 30 days of being received in final slabbed format by their submitters, maybe even more. This scale would probably decline as you approach the GA, but remain very heavy in the BA and SA related tiers, never dipping below 60% is my guess.The whole pre screen assessment service to the pressing also lends support to Andrews argument that these books are destined for slabs and resale in very short order the majority of the time. I believe and continue to believe that pressing is not a conservation technique in 90% + of the books its performed on, its a market technique designed to maximize revenue. Whether that's good or bad for the hobby is another debate, but the reason why its happening in my opinion is not really debatable anymore. Rgs,Jason

[OldGuy]

 Originally Posted By: OldGuy

 Originally Posted By: awe4one

 Originally Posted By: Monkeyman

I literally had to peel the covers off the front pages. At the time I didn't know about pressing and wondered what was going on. You may find pressed books that open up normally, but is only because the presser unstuck everything before sending it back to you

 

You can buy raw books from a couple sellers in the Forum marketplace where this occurs...

 

Jim

 

Raw books aren't pressed.

 

Isolated indecent.

[OldGuy]

Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is time.

 

And moisture and heat, but who's counting......

[MCMiles]

 Originally Posted By: joe_collector

The pressing threads always get out of hand...

 

On one side we have the dealers who stand to profit most, the collectors and investors who are sitting on a pile of CGC 9.6 - 9.8 nosebleed books, and the various "enablers" who profit from this practice, from Matt to CGC.

 

On the other we have the majority of the collector base, who finds this practice unsavory, and fears that rampant pressing-greed will cause the house of cards to come tumbling down and send the hobby into another dark age.

 

Neither side will see the other's point-of-view, as one sees "live for today" money to be made no matter the consequences to the hobby, while the other unrealistically hopes for sanity in a world where a $15 press can yield thousands of dollars in return.

 

 

I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

Obviously, since I started out with "The pressing threads..."

I'm sure my point was clear to most. For the record, I won't be so easily taunted in to wasting my time any more than this reply.

[Flaming_Telepath]

 Originally Posted By: buttock

If you can't tell, then why do you care?

 

Is it OK to buy conflict diamonds if you plead ignorance as to where they came from? Is it OK for a real estate agent to not tell you that the house you're looking at used to belong to a serial killer because they got all the bloodstains out? Is it OK if your wife sleeps around on you if you don't know about it? Sometimes what's been done to something and/or where something has come from on its way to your hands matters, even if you can't tell.

 

I'm sure there are instances where pressing can be justified, but the now rampant practice for the pursuit of extra $$$ just turns my stomach. I'm in this hobby for the fun of it, as a nostalgic reminder of more innocent times - I'm no more in favor of unnecessary pressing than I am for unnecessary plastic surgery.

 

Just leave well enough alone!!

I normally stay away from these pressing threads because I

feel I lack the knowledge and experience to add anything to

the conversation.

 

I know I've always wanted atleast one 9.8 for my collection

and on my current budget it was going to be a BA book.

After reading Matt's rollback of the years for 12.00 $ I no

longer have any desire whatsoever to make some seller

more money on a manufactured 9.8.

 

I understand Nick's frustration and the more I learn about this

hobby the less enjoyment I seem to get from it. Like most

things in this world money and greed will eventually ruin this

hobby even more.

 

I hope and pray Nick doesn't leave and this hobby needs all

the honest good guys with integrity to stay. I know I'm sticking

to my raw VFs to VF/NM if I'm lucky so I can still carefully

read, feel and smell that wonderful smell of a well cared for

comic.

 

I still like slabs for the odd special book and I purposely try

to buy only 9.0 to 9.2 and to me they are still beautiful books

and very special to me. If I was rich I might change my mind

but I hope not.

 

I do understand why a GA collector might want to press out

some flaw to improve the look of their books and I think with

SA/BA collectors it's all just a way to make more money

either immediately or down the road when they change their

collecting focus.

 

 

Carry on.

I'm giving these two bad boys a... (thumbs u (thumbs u

[joeypost]

 Originally Posted By: joe_collector

 Originally Posted By: MCMiles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: joe_collector</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The pressing threads always get out of hand...<br /><br />On one side we have the dealers who stand to profit most, the collectors and investors who are sitting on a pile of CGC 9.6 - 9.8 nosebleed books, and the various "enablers" who profit from this practice, from Matt to CGC. <br /><br />On the other we have the <b>majority of the collector base, who finds this practice unsavory</b>, and fears that rampant pressing-greed will cause the house of cards to come tumbling down and send the hobby into another dark age. <br /><br />Neither side will see the other's point-of-view, as one sees "live for today" money to be made no matter the consequences to the hobby, while the other unrealistically hopes for sanity in a world where a $15 press can yield thousands of dollars in return. <br /><br /> <img src="http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/sorry.gif" alt="" title="sorry" height="22" width="88" /> </div></div> <br /><br />I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

 

Obviously, since I started out with "The pressing threads..."

 

I'm sure my point was clear to most. For the record, I won't be so easily taunted in to wasting my time any more than this reply.

The CFP has spoken

[DrWatson]

 Originally Posted By: joe_collector

 Originally Posted By: MCMiles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: joe_collector</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The pressing threads always get out of hand...<br /><br />On one side we have the dealers who stand to profit most, the collectors and investors who are sitting on a pile of CGC 9.6 - 9.8 nosebleed books, and the various "enablers" who profit from this practice, from Matt to CGC. <br /><br />On the other we have the <b>majority of the collector base, who finds this practice unsavory</b>, and fears that rampant pressing-greed will cause the house of cards to come tumbling down and send the hobby into another dark age. <br /><br />Neither side will see the other's point-of-view, as one sees "live for today" money to be made no matter the consequences to the hobby, while the other unrealistically hopes for sanity in a world where a $15 press can yield thousands of dollars in return. <br /><br /> <img src="http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/sorry.gif" alt="" title="sorry" height="22" width="88" /> </div></div> <br /><br />I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

 

Obviously, since I started out with "The pressing threads..."

 

I'm sure my point was clear to most. For the record, I won't be so easily taunted in to wasting my time any more than this reply.

I was easily taunted and now I feel dirty and ashamed.

[burntboy]

I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

 

When i spent 4 days in NYC at the Con this past April working with Byron Jones (TVComics), I was NEVER asked a single time by HUNDREDS of prospective buyers, whether any books we were offering had been pressed. and we dealt with lots of board members as well as many dealers.

 

I have to believe that "disclosure" is a desired concept of the vocal MINORITY. not saying i don't empathize, but with no one asking any questions about pressing, i find it hard to believe that a majority of hobbyists find the practice so distasteful...

[Flaming_Telepath]

The pressing threads always get out of hand...

 

On one side we have the dealers who stand to profit most, the collectors and investors who are sitting on a pile of CGC 9.6 - 9.8 nosebleed books, and the various "enablers" who profit from this practice, from Matt to CGC.

 

On the other we have the majority of the collector base, who finds this practice unsavory, and fears that rampant pressing-greed will cause the house of cards to come tumbling down and send the hobby into another dark age.

 

Neither side will see the other's point-of-view, as one sees "live for today" money to be made no matter the consequences to the hobby, while the other unrealistically hopes for sanity in a world where a $15 press can yield thousands of dollars in return.

 

I'm actually loving this one, also. The hobby as it stands right now, pretty much in a nutshell.And I'm tired of the conflict.

[joeypost]

 Originally Posted By: Sal

Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is time.

 

And moisture and heat, but who's counting......

I have books that I keep in my garage that within a months time tend to flatten out due to the relatively high temperatures/humidity (I live in Florida) and weight from the books stacked on top of them. The look better but nowhere close to a good pressing. I would imagine if I left them there for years they would not look as good as a book placed in a press overnight. To a degree natural gravity will help, but most people do not have the years to wait for that to happen.

[OldGuy]

 Originally Posted By: MCMiles

I personally find this to be inaccurate. It just seems that way on these boards and especially in pressing threads because they are the most vocal.

 

When i spent 4 days in NYC at the Con this past April working with Byron Jones (TVComics), I was NEVER asked a single time by HUNDREDS of prospective buyers, whether any books we were offering had been pressed. and we dealt with lots of board members as well as many dealers.

 

I have to believe that "disclosure" is a desired concept of the vocal MINORITY. not saying i don't empathize, but with no one asking any questions about pressing, i find it hard to believe that a majority of hobbyists find the practice so distasteful...

25 years ago (or less for a lot of people) no one ever asked about restoration either. I had never even heard of comic book restoration 20 years ago and wouldn't have recognized a restored book if it hit me in the face. How could anyone care about something they know nothing about?Didn't matter to me then, but it matters to me now.

[Sal]

Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is time.

 

And moisture and heat, but who's counting......

 

Again, moisture and heat help reduce the amount of time needed...

[jbud73]

 Originally Posted By: DrWatson

To equate comic book pressing with those things you just listed is ridiculous.

 

Nobody's equating anything, just making a point.

 

I'm opposed to the rampant proliferation of greed in this hobby, of which unnecessary pressing for profit is a prime symptom. I see enough of that here in NYC. Comics are supposed to be my sanctuary away from all the petty douchebags I run into here and instead I find that there are more greedy and ethically-challenged people in our hobby than on Wall Street.

Gene, that's a bold statement, but I have to say that when the NDP first came to light it seemed that comics was taking on more mud slinging then my chosen career (I'm a political consultant) and that's saying a lot too I've also used the analogy previously that equated NDP without disclosure to insider trading. :gossip:Just want to touch briefly on Nick's comments about getting out of the hobby with NDP being the last straw. While I think that when he sits down and ponders it that will not be the case, and I personally take the opinion that pressing running me out of the hobby is I do think it has relevance.Knowing the whole story regarding NDP and collecting books that have the ability to be influenced by it should shake your consumer confidence. The degree to which it does is the key. I know friends who have transitioned out of comics because the utility of HG slabs no longer made sense to them and they found something else to do with their money. Some sold their books, I think the majority held on to at least a portion of the collection. The point being that full understanding, or new understanding will cause you to reassess any situation, and the results of the assessment are yours alone.Personally I stopped popping 300-500 a pop into HG books and started popping that money into OA more often, with my disposable income that created a paradox and slowly OA has been winning - though I will buy the occasional comic. However, knowledge regarding the HG comics market opened the door for a portion of my money to go elsewhere, thus creating competition and the potential for a decrease in participation in comic collecting. It was subtle, took place over years and the ultimate jury is still out.People sell off for different reasons, people transition for other reasons, I still think its better for the hobby not to give them a reason, but opinions vary and over all the hobby is still stronger today than it has been in previous periods, some of those very recent.

[cd4ever]

 Originally Posted By: OldGuy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Sal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get into it one way or the other, but the difference between a stack of books and a press is <b>time</b>.</div></div><br /><br />And moisture and heat, but who's counting......

 

I have books that I keep in my garage that within a months time tend to flatten out due to the relatively high temperatures/humidity (I live in Florida) and weight from the books stacked on top of them. The look better but nowhere close to a good pressing. I would imagine if I left them there for years they would not look as good as a book placed in a press overnight.

 

To a degree natural gravity will help, but most people do not have the years to wait for that to happen.

Environmental presser!

[awe4one]

Oh, and on the spooky there's a dust shadow on the TOP too. In just the exact configuration you'd expect to see with the other two dust shadows.

 

Nice "press" job...

It's from a known presser AND the discoloration was caused by it's time with the severe spine roll. You can see clearly where the edge was. That's not a dust shadow but rather the edge, with clear wear line, before the pressing...Jim