New Breed of Dealers and Collectors?

[awe4one]

Reading recent comments by both dealers and collectors have made me realize that the advent of CGC has created a new breed of collecting in this hobby...

 

Collectors who before were completely content with a "NM" comic in their collection, let's say one that would be graded today by CGC as a 9.4, now aren't since there are some out there "officially" graded higher (a phenomenom that didn't exist before). Instead of moving on to other holes in their collection, they now include upgrades of issues they already have and were previously fine with. Pretty much a collecting circlejerk unless they have the cash to continually buy 9.8 or higher copies. Page quality certifications also drive this upgrade need...

 

Dealers on the otherhand now have a system they can play with. Instead of having straight NM comics stock for sale (let's say three of any issue) , they can now look for upgrade opportunities be it by pressing comics or just a straight graded comic resubmittal they feel was undergraded the first time. And now the CGC number has given them a validation to separate those three issues and provided a basis to work with in determining how they make their money, factors in what they buy, and how they operate their business by using CGC as an umbrella for countering differences of opinion. Not to mention feeding off that same collector circlejerk upgrade mentality...a mentality that wasn't nearly as honed as it is now and provides dealers an opportunity to sell multiple NM comics of the same issue to the same collectors...

 

Jim

[lizards2]

Reading recent comments by both dealers and collectors have made me realize that the advent of CGC has created a new breed of collecting in this hobby...

 

Collectors who before were completely content with a "NM" comic in their collection, let's say one that would be graded today by CGC as a 9.4, now aren't since there are some out there "offically" graded higher (a phenomenom that didn't exist before). Instead of moving on to other holes in their collection, they now include upgrades of issues they already have and were previously fine with. Pretty much a collecting circlejerk unless they have the cash to continually buy 9.8 or higher copies. Page quality ceritfications also drive this upgrade need...

 

Dealers on the otherhand now have a system they can play with. Instead of having straight NM comics stock for sale (let's say three of any issue) , they can now look for upgrade opportunities be it by pressing comics or just a straight graded comic resubmittal they feel was undergraded the first time. And now the CGC number has given them a validation to separate those three issues and provided a basis to work with in determining how they make their money, factors in what they buy, and how they operate their business by using CGC as an umbrella for countering differences of opinion. Not to mention feeding off that same collector circlejerk upgrade mentality...a mentality that wasn't nearly as honed as it is now and provides dealers an opportunity to sell multiple NM comics of the same issue to the same collectors...

 

Jim

 

Yeah - and if they sequence it right, they can bilk the same rube over and over again

 

P.T. Barnum has risen....,

 

[jacks2start-migration]

Now this coming from a dealer/collector point of view.I think it can be broken down into 4 stages. #1 the die hard raw comic collectors who wants to hold the book,smell it an some point sell it . #2 the collectors how want the highest grade they can afford to buy at the time with hopes of it going and selling it ,then getting a 9.8 . #3 the dealer who wants no change or the troulbe of sending them to cgc. This may be a person who likes to keep it raw and simple . #4 being the dealer who wants to make the most from each book, this being said someone who is taking there buisness to heart much more than the other dealers. My thualts are if you need a copy of AMS 100 buy raw or slabbed whatever makes you happy.

 

AND BY THE WAY THESE STATMENTS MAY HAVE BEEN PRESSED.

[nmtg9]

Jim

you are spot on sir.

 

not much we can do about it though, its here to stay.

 

but i remember when comics were for reading.

 

(not that im anti CGC mind so dont start on that)

 

neil

[djpinkpanther67]

I'm guilty of "Upgrade Syndrome" myself

[comicgrinder]

I'm guilty of "Upgrade Syndrome" myself

[esquirecomics]

Although we can never go back and there are many things I like about CGC and the current system, I must say I prefer the 1980s grading of good, fine and mint (with some slight variations in between) that lacked the continual cutthroat and greedy attitudes that are more prevalent today.

[Park]

Reading recent comments by both dealers and collectors have made me realize that the advent of CGC has created a new breed of collecting in this hobby...

 

Collectors who before were completely content with a "NM" comic in their collection, let's say one that would be graded today by CGC as a 9.4, now aren't since there are some out there "officially" graded higher (a phenomenom that didn't exist before). Instead of moving on to other holes in their collection, they now include upgrades of issues they already have and were previously fine with. Pretty much a collecting circlejerk unless they have the cash to continually buy 9.8 or higher copies. Page quality certifications also drive this upgrade need...

 

Dealers on the otherhand now have a system they can play with. Instead of having straight NM comics stock for sale (let's say three of any issue) , they can now look for upgrade opportunities be it by pressing comics or just a straight graded comic resubmittal they feel was undergraded the first time. And now the CGC number has given them a validation to separate those three issues and provided a basis to work with in determining how they make their money, factors in what they buy, and how they operate their business by using CGC as an umbrella for countering differences of opinion. Not to mention feeding off that same collector circlejerk upgrade mentality...a mentality that wasn't nearly as honed as it is now and provides dealers an opportunity to sell multiple NM comics of the same issue to the same collectors...

 

Jim

 

It is human nature. The mindset of "there is always something better out there" has been around forever. CGC has given the comic book collector a means of saying "mine is the best" by putting a number on the label. I would imagine every form of collecting has collectors that have to have the best or brightest or fastest or shiniest etc. To me, it is neither good nor bad. It just is.

 

Dealers have capitalized on that idea by just submitting books to CGC. They have also capitalized on that idea by manufacturing (or use whatever word or process fits your line of thinking here) books to receive the highest number on a CGC label. I have a hard time believing that a dealer would NOT try to capitalize on the "collector circlejerk upgrade mentality."

 

Every person out there has a certain threshold of the "perfect" book. Yours differs from mine and mine differs from that guy. It is the inherent nature of collecting, one person's garbage is another's treasure.

 

 

[Designer Toast]

I hadn't started collecting again at the time, but went to a comic show in Portland that was (best guess) a year or two after CGC opened shop. A lot of old time dealers at the time were saying third-party graded comics would be a passing fad lasting maybe another year or so. Obviously those folks were dead wrong.

 

There definitely is a new breed of collector out there and I have to give CGC credit for giving the comic industry a much needed shot in the arm. With that, I do not submit books not strive for 9.8 and above copies of anything. I only buy slabs on the cheap, probably having spent under $60 on the most expensive slab I have ever purchased. I've toyed with the idea of submitting books, some days I'm serious about it, other days I don't think it'd be owrth it to me personally and it isn;t my collecting focus at all.

 

Just where do you think this industry would be without CGC? I can tell you I likely would be able to purchase key books cheaper

[Flash105]

I hadn't started collecting again at the time, but went to a comic show in Portland that was (best guess) a year or two after CGC opened shop. A lot of old time dealers at the time were saying third-party graded comics would be a passing fad lasting maybe another year or so. Obviously those folks were dead wrong.

 

There definitely is a new breed of collector out there and I have to give CGC credit for giving the comic industry a much needed shot in the arm. With that, I do not submit books not strive for 9.8 and above copies of anything. I only buy slabs on the cheap, probably having spent under $60 on the most expensive slab I have ever purchased. I've toyed with the idea of submitting books, some days I'm serious about it, other days I don't think it'd be owrth it to me personally and it isn;t my collecting focus at all.

 

Just where do you think this industry would be without CGC? I can tell you I likely would be able to purchase key books cheaper

 

The new breed of collector is actually a 40 something year old collector that probably left the hobby in the 90s because of the old game. Sell the book at NM buy the book at VF. Those days are over and a lot of us are coming back to the game and I for one would never buy a high grade book unless it was slabbed.

 

You ask where the industry would be without CGC and you are right to say books would be cheaper. But the industry would be a lot smaller and would not have the buzz it has today. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best as long as you have the money to pay for it. You may not get your money back on the book but there will always be a market for it to sell.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Jim,

 

As a "revived" collector and a new dealer I think I will add to this. The way things were as Zaid said will never be again. The hobby is dominated by big money, and dealers will try for the most part to squeeze every dime there is. People are currently paying 5X's guide or more for comics on the regular just to have the coveted "highest grade". While CGC has created somewhat of a safety net by checking for resto, etc.. It will also be the weak link as people will quickly over-extend themselves just to have a few books.

 

I buy slabs or raw, and sell the same. I try and stick more tothe old-game of marking up the hot books to match the room, but Ido not charge GPA on raw books. THIS is the problem I see now is that people are selling raw for the same price as slabbed. This bothers me immensely. People pay for CGC books for the rest-check, grade, and slight buyer protection. But now dealers are trying to maximize raw books also.

 

And the last step of pressing. You rarely see raw books get pressed to be displayed raw. The pressing phenomenom is almost primarily for CGC books, trying to squeeze that last .2 out of a book. I think pressing for conservation is a good idea, as stated before. But my PERSONAL opinion for a pressed book is that I would prefer to have a HG survivor, not a manufactured one. It's not that pressed books are inferior, it's that they WERE inferior and have been made better. That is something I am just not into, but we are talking for my collection. As far as sales go, if someone wants the book they will buy it.

 

My biggest fear for the hobby is when the bubble bursts. I know some collectors would love to play ostrich, and pretend it can't happen. But at some point in time the bubble will pop and people who spent 5Xguide on books will probably leave again, as they will have invested10's of thousands of dollars just to realize a 35% return. This may be disheartening to a few. The regular collector will howevercontinue with business as usual.

 

What I am saying is things will never be as they were. But they wont stay as they are either. All it takes is a few books to change the model. A few books selling for say 1X guide or maybe 2, will begin dropping the bar. I think CGC will stay, I think pressing will stay, but I think prices for the books won't. So the next few years we will see where this leads us.

 

Pat-

[jools&jim]

I agree with Jim wholeheartedly.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that rampant speculation, flipping, numbers games, and buying and selling things independent of their intrinsic or traditional values is NEVER a long-term good thing for any economic system, and this includes the buying and selling of old comic books.

 

Cicero is instructive here: "Diseases of the mind, such as avarice, spring from too high a value set upon the things by which the mind becomes corrupted..."

 

Or, even better, Cindy Lauper: "We think we know what we're doing, we don't know a thing...it's all in the past now...money changes everything..."

[blazingbob]

The circlejerk you refer to can be traced to a couple of things. One of them is the CGC registry whereby collectors get to enter their collections and see how well they do against their collecting peers. Ooooh, ooooh, if I add a 9.6 to my collection I get more points and I'l have the best. Instead of parading around a show with my highest graded copy under my arm getting oohs and aahhs from my buddy I can get some ooohs and aaahs from my forum buddies.

 

Personally, I think the Matt does good work thread had a little to do with Matt's work and a little bit of "Look what I got".

 

Everybody wants to be a BSD. Amazing that owning the Highest graded copy of a comic book could give you that status for your 15 minutes of fame.

 

As far as everybody being in a upgrade mode sometimes it's as simple as a collector completing his/her run and now they need something to do/collect. Being a High grade dealer I must say that the high grade market does contain a very "interesting" type of collector.

 

As a dealer I really don't play with my stock. How much time do you think dealers have to do the type of book analysis that these games entail?

 

As far as the multiples go I recommend that collectors focus on the 9.0-9.2 grades with excellent eye appeal (for Silver Age). This grade range is generally still priced using the overstreet price guide except for certain issues.

 

Guys who use GPA for pricing raw are basically stating subliminally that they don't want to leave any money on the table. That alone says a lot to me and frankly if I wanted to pay GPA I would buy the book in the holder already.

 

 

[rube11]

Reading recent comments by both dealers and collectors have made me realize that the advent of CGC has created a new breed of collecting in this hobby...

 

Collectors who before were completely content with a "NM" comic in their collection, let's say one that would be graded today by CGC as a 9.4, now aren't since there are some out there "offically" graded higher (a phenomenom that didn't exist before). Instead of moving on to other holes in their collection, they now include upgrades of issues they already have and were previously fine with. Pretty much a collecting circlejerk unless they have the cash to continually buy 9.8 or higher copies. Page quality ceritfications also drive this upgrade need...

 

Dealers on the otherhand now have a system they can play with. Instead of having straight NM comics stock for sale (let's say three of any issue) , they can now look for upgrade opportunities be it by pressing comics or just a straight graded comic resubmittal they feel was undergraded the first time. And now the CGC number has given them a validation to separate those three issues and provided a basis to work with in determining how they make their money, factors in what they buy, and how they operate their business by using CGC as an umbrella for countering differences of opinion. Not to mention feeding off that same collector circlejerk upgrade mentality...a mentality that wasn't nearly as honed as it is now and provides dealers an opportunity to sell multiple NM comics of the same issue to the same collectors...

 

Jim

 

Yeah - and if they sequence it right, they can bilk the same rube over and over again

 

P.T. Barnum has risen....,

 

What exactly do you mean the same "rube"???

 

Steve "rube11" Rubin

[He11blazer]

Dealers and Collectors must never breed. To do so risks the creation of... the Delector!

[lizards2]

Reading recent comments by both dealers and collectors have made me realize that the advent of CGC has created a new breed of collecting in this hobby...

 

Collectors who before were completely content with a "NM" comic in their collection, let's say one that would be graded today by CGC as a 9.4, now aren't since there are some out there "offically" graded higher (a phenomenom that didn't exist before). Instead of moving on to other holes in their collection, they now include upgrades of issues they already have and were previously fine with. Pretty much a collecting circlejerk unless they have the cash to continually buy 9.8 or higher copies. Page quality ceritfications also drive this upgrade need...

 

Dealers on the otherhand now have a system they can play with. Instead of having straight NM comics stock for sale (let's say three of any issue) , they can now look for upgrade opportunities be it by pressing comics or just a straight graded comic resubmittal they feel was undergraded the first time. And now the CGC number has given them a validation to separate those three issues and provided a basis to work with in determining how they make their money, factors in what they buy, and how they operate their business by using CGC as an umbrella for countering differences of opinion. Not to mention feeding off that same collector circlejerk upgrade mentality...a mentality that wasn't nearly as honed as it is now and provides dealers an opportunity to sell multiple NM comics of the same issue to the same collectors...

 

Jim

 

Yeah - and if they sequence it right, they can bilk the same rube over and over again

 

P.T. Barnum has risen....,

 

What exactly do you mean the same "rube"???

 

Steve "rube11" Rubin

 

In the original story, there were 11 copies of ASM 300....,

[lizards2]

The circlejerk you refer to can be traced to a couple of things. One of them is the CGC registry whereby collectors get to enter their collections and see how well they do against their collecting peers. Ooooh, ooooh, if I add a 9.6 to my collection I get more points and I'l have the best. Instead of parading around a show with my highest graded copy under my arm getting oohs and aahhs from my buddy I can get some ooohs and aaahs from my forum buddies.

 

 

Personally, I don't even look at the registry, however, a cool idea would be for someone to put together the ugliest set of miscuts, shaken slab syndromes, and other 9.4/9.6s with corner creases, and display them proudly for a high score. Maybe the "red-headed step-child collection" ....,

[Mr. Zipper]

The circlejerk you refer to can be traced to a couple of things. One of them is the CGC registry whereby collectors get to enter their collections and see how well they do against their collecting peers. Ooooh, ooooh, if I add a 9.6 to my collection I get more points and I'l have the best. Instead of parading around a show with my highest graded copy under my arm getting oohs and aahhs from my buddy I can get some ooohs and aaahs from my forum buddies.

 

Personally, I think the Matt does good work thread had a little to do with Matt's work and a little bit of "Look what I got".

 

Everybody wants to be a BSD. Amazing that owning the Highest graded copy of a comic book could give you that status for your 15 minutes of fame.

 

As far as everybody being in a upgrade mode sometimes it's as simple as a collector completing his/her run and now they need something to do/collect. Being a High grade dealer I must say that the high grade market does contain a very "interesting" type of collector.

 

As a dealer I really don't play with my stock. How much time do you think dealers have to do the type of book analysis that these games entail?

 

As far as the multiples go I recommend that collectors focus on the 9.0-9.2 grades with excellent eye appeal (for Silver Age). This grade range is generally still priced using the overstreet price guide except for certain issues.

 

Guys who use GPA for pricing raw are basically stating subliminally that they don't want to leave any money on the table. That alone says a lot to me and frankly if I wanted to pay GPA I would buy the book in the holder already.

 

 

Glad someone mentioned the Registry. That nifty little tool really plays right into the classic "collector" psyche... marketing genius on CGC's part.

[Cody_Starbuck]

Great post Jim. I can't argue against anything you said, although I don't think that collectors have changed so much as the tools they have access to have.

[Cody_Starbuck]

The circlejerk you refer to can be traced to a couple of things. One of them is the CGC registry whereby collectors get to enter their collections and see how well they do against their collecting peers. Ooooh, ooooh, if I add a 9.6 to my collection I get more points and I'l have the best. Instead of parading around a show with my highest graded copy under my arm getting oohs and aahhs from my buddy I can get some ooohs and aaahs from my forum buddies.

 

Personally, I think the Matt does good work thread had a little to do with Matt's work and a little bit of "Look what I got".

 

Everybody wants to be a BSD. Amazing that owning the Highest graded copy of a comic book could give you that status for your 15 minutes of fame.

 

As far as everybody being in a upgrade mode sometimes it's as simple as a collector completing his/her run and now they need something to do/collect. Being a High grade dealer I must say that the high grade market does contain a very "interesting" type of collector.

 

As a dealer I really don't play with my stock. How much time do you think dealers have to do the type of book analysis that these games entail?

 

As far as the multiples go I recommend that collectors focus on the 9.0-9.2 grades with excellent eye appeal (for Silver Age). This grade range is generally still priced using the overstreet price guide except for certain issues.

 

Guys who use GPA for pricing raw are basically stating subliminally that they don't want to leave any money on the table. That alone says a lot to me and frankly if I wanted to pay GPA I would buy the book in the holder already.

 

 

Glad someone mentioned the Registry. That nifty little tool really plays right into the classic "collector" psyche... marketing genius on CGC's part.

 

You're right. I like the Registry but I can see where it could bring out the competitiveness of people, much to GCG's benefit.