PRESSING VERSUS DEALERS. WHERE'S THE REAL OUTRAGE?

[cujobyte]

This is not directed to you but HOW can I be 100% accurate with CGC grading?

 

I've NEVER seen their grading standards, there are 3 graders against me and we have never sat in a room together and graded books. I've never graded books with Steve Borock in the same room either.

 

And should I state that I've had CGC prescreen my inventory at shows and still get rejected books back? Should I get on here and state that CGC can't grade either? Should I post all the WTF CGC grades and question what were they thinking when they graded this? I've cracked out some CGC books and was amazed at what I was looking at. I've even sent a couple of those books back to CGC for regrading.

 

I work really hard to accurately grade. Undergrading books just so you are always right is a COP OUT and frankly shows no confidence in your ability to grade.

 

EVERY raw book in my inventory does not need to be CGC graded. I serve customers who buy raw books and I serve customers who want CGC books. Just because I have a raw copy does not mean I overgraded it. How many graded post 1966 Amazing spider-man's do I need to have?

 

Not to mention that CGC has 3 graders on each book and more often than not (despite them being trained to know their grading standards), they disagree on grades. Why? Because grading is SUBJECTIVE. Turn over any slab and read the back and you will see that this is stated by CGC themselves. Every book graded by CGC is influenced by the books which they have previously graded. If they are looking at 10 books in a row that are 9.6 - 9.8 range, a 9.4 book is going to look that much worse. If they have just graded 20 8.5 - 9.0s, a 9.4 book is going to look that much better. Not to mention a hundred other factors, such as that Mark reportedly(allegedly?) doesn't like Silver Age and Bronze Age books and might tend to grade them tougher, that he hates tanning and halos and will hammer the out of a grade for them(which is ridiculous in most cases since they do in fact already grade the page quality), or just normal life occurences like when the grader spent the weekend partying(ahem Steve ahem), and might come in tired, or hung over, or just grumpy. Or maybe somebody just had a major fight with a girlfriend and is generally POed at the world and the grades that day suffer.

And all those things which affect a CGC grader, also affect a dealer grading books.

 

Bob is right as well about the wear books suffer from the time they are originally graded until they make their way to a few conventions, get handled by a few people that don't know what they are doing and get opened 32 times so someone can smell the book.

 

Bob asked a very legitimate question. It is your money. You are the one purchasing the book. That makes it your responsibility to learn to grade. If a dealer is telling you a book is an 8.0 and you think it is a 7.0 and you buy it anyway, then whose fault is that.

 

By the way, Heritage and Comiclink and anyone who is selling books on commission is better served to UNDERGRADE the books, as it reduces returns and hassles over grading disputes. Plus, they have nothing invested in the books. They will still get there 10 - 29%(depending on where you sell) regardless if the book is a 7.0 or 8.0.

 

 

I really do not want to get involved with this debate, but I'm going to open pandora's box. Some other boardie said it best when he mentioned that a book a customer buys is a vf/nm and when he sells it back, well it usually is a vf.

 

Dale I've never met or bought from you and have nothing against you, but that type of comment coming from a dealer that I have in bold will keep customers like me away. When someone comes into my bookstore, it is my best intentions to treat them with respect (even if they love Danielle Steel ok so I bite my tongue occasionally) but I do not expect them to know if the newest Grisham sucked, or if a new author's unknown book is great. Thats what I'm here for. To leave the "learning the grade" to the customer can be a dangerous thing, because you simply do not have the "perspective" a new customer has. That customer will not know how to grade, and trusts the dealer. Then when or if he or she does submit it to cgc, and if it comes back a lot lower then expected, he or she will simply never do business with that person again. End of story.

 

I agree with most of your statements, and Bob's. And perhaps its your years in this business that has led you to forget one thing: New customers and new guys to this hobby do not know how to grade, and frankly if they're paying customers then its your duty to help them out. (AGAIN I am not implying that you do not do this) It is in your best interest to do this, as we'll be repeat customers for life.

 

Again I am only writing in response to that paragraph, and in no way am stating that you do not know how to grade, or that you do not treat your customers in a good way. I've actually heard great things about you, and look forward to doing business with you at some point. No disrespect intended. Just asking to look at it in a different perspective is all.

[Flaming_Telepath]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

Grab a six-pack, kick back and relax…this is going to be a long one.

 

I was shocked and just a little concerned to see this posted in another thread…

 

My concern is selling a raw book and then having somebody come back to complain that CGC gave it a certain grade. It may come back as advertised, undergraded or overgraded and this can mean a lot of $$ depending on the book.

 

I may have to stop selling raw books all together which sukks because everyone likes a deal (save on grading fees etc)...but it may leave me with no choice.

 

R.

 

 

Now, like many of you, I’ve bought raw books from Roy and, also like many of you, I’ve been entirely satisfied with what I received. Roy is one of those sellers who knows how to grade, a cut above many boarders and light-years beyond almost all eBay sellers.

 

But he’s now worried about dealing in raw books? What the is that all about???

 

After thinking about it for a time, my concern didn’t diminish. It seems to be part of a shift in the market that I’m not entirely comfortable with…and neither should you be.

 

Let’s up front take care of restoration, as that’s not what this discussion is about. Some restoration is easy to spot, some isn’t. Whether you’re a raw novice, or a 20-year dealer, you can miss it. Hell, even if you work for CGC, you can miss it, so it’s real simple. If you sell a book that is subsequently discovered to have been restored, and you did not disclose, you must refund the buyer in full. It’s the cost of doing business and all of us will have to, at one time or another, make that refund. Providing you’re not a Danny Dupcak, where you’re doing the work yourself, or an SNE, where you can’t even be arsed taking the book out of the bag to check, there should be no stigma attached to occasionally missing a bit of resto.

 

So, assuming that we are talking solely here about unrestored books, to my mind, there are three types of grader – those who can, those who can’t and those who won’t. If you fall into either of the latter two groups and wish to continue to sell raw books, it’s fairly simple. If you can’t grade, just post large high-res scans of back and front covers, detail all the flaws that are not easy to spot in the scan, and name your price. Your books will either sell or not sell and if they do shift, there should be no come-back…you revealed everything and allowed your buyer to make an informed decision.

 

If you won’t grade, you need to start. If you know that a book is a FN+, it’s not a VF because you’re selling it on eBay. If you know that a book is a FN+, but you’ve got ‘a lot in it’, it’s still not a VF. If you know that a book is a FN+, but you bought it from Mile High as a VF, it’s still a FN+. Stop telling lies and start having some ethics.

 

Which leaves us with the final group – those who can grade. And how would I quantify this? Well, if the vast majority of books you sell are met with genuine satisfaction by your buyers, you can grade. If the vast majority of books you send to CGC, or your buyers send to CGC, are on the mark or close enough, you can grade. (thumbs u

 

However, what it does not mean is that every single one of your books sent to CGC comes back at least the grade you stated. That is simply impossible to achieve and extremely unrealistic to demand. CGC themselves are guilty of inconsistency. CGC themselves can grade the same book twice, or even three times, on a straight-forward, unmanipulated re-sub…and each time they get a different grade. You called it a VF/NM, CGC call it a VF+…where’s the problem?

 

Simply put, there is none, and don’t let anyone tell you differently. And don’t let anyone strong-arm a refund out of you. If you as the seller decide that it’s appropriate to do so, fine. If you feel bad for the buyer, or you want to secure his loyalty and ongoing business, go right ahead. However, don’t feel that you must, as the time for a seller to ask for a refund is when he receives the raw book and can’t see it reaching the claimed grade of VF/NM. That’s when the buyer should tell the seller that he’s unhappy and that’s when the seller should issue full compensation.

 

Because if you, as a buyer, receive your ‘VF/NM’ from the seller and, finding yourself in full agreement with that grade, decide to submit it to CGC, you are only seeking another opinion. You are not receiving a guarantee of the grade (read the back of your slabs if you disagree), and are only receiving another, albeit experienced and talented, assessment. So you got a VF+ instead of the hoped for VF/NM? That’s well within accepted tolerance, I would suggest. And after all, you thought it was a VF/NM, too. Why and how is the original seller at fault here?

 

Let’s face it, there are many reasons for there to be a small difference. Maybe the seller did indeed miss something? Maybe he treats certain specific flaws slightly differently than CGC? Maybe CGC were going through a ‘tough’ phase?

 

And let’s take it a step further. Let’s say that you bought six books from the seller, five of which you decide to submit. As above, one came back a point less than claimed, two came back right on the money, and two came back higher than the seller’s grade…one of them was allegedly a NM- and the boys at Sarasota slapped a big old 9.6 on the slab!

 

Is it fair to ask for a refund, or avoid the seller in the future, because of that one book that came back lower? Is it sensible to do so? And if you’re going to ask for a refund, will you also offer to retrospectively pay a lot more for those two books that graded out higher?

 

The fact is, I don’t think it’s sensible, nor fair, nor logical, to hold a seller responsible for the odd book that doesn’t grade out quite as expected. If there’s a big difference, of course it needs addressing. It is probably simply something that he missed and with graders’ notes in hand, it will usually all become clear. And I would anticipate that the sort of sellers we’re talking about here – the ones that can grade, remember – will make things right.

 

Bottom line, CGC’s grade is simply another opinion and just because you cannot predict what they give 100% of the time doesn’t make you a bad grader. It doesn’t make you a bad seller. It doesn’t make you responsible (although you can decide yourself whether you ‘make it right’ or not, whatever that might involve) and you shouldn’t be held responsible for not predicting what sort of mood, or grading curve, the CGC graders were on when the book was processed through.

 

Here’s what constitutes a good seller. Almost all of the books you receive from him are, in your opinion as a buyer, graded correctly. Almost all the books you receive from said seller, when graded by CGC, come back at the grade he stated (or better). And whenever he misses something, or whenever you are dissatisfied with your raw purchase, he makes it right.

 

Nobody is infallible. CGC certainly aren’t. They change personnel and use different sets of eyes. They swap out grades on resubs every day of the week. They occasionally miss restoration. They ebb and flow on the severity of their assessments...last year it would have been a 9.4, this year it gets a 9.0.

 

So why should Roy, or any other ‘good seller’ (see above), be held to a higher standard, and castigated or made to pay, for the odd time they don’t quite agree with the ‘experts’?

 

They shouldn’t. End of.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Oh, and Glenn...just so we know who we're dealing with here, could you post your previous ID and give us some idea why it fell into disuse?

 

Always helps when all we've got to go on is a posting ID and a registry set. (thumbs u

[chromium]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

[blazingbob]

I didn't see this original post.

 

Very good points

[lizards2]

I didn't see this original post.

 

Very good points

 

I very much agree with FTs post. I don't agree with anyone on grading 100% of the time - not going to happen - grading is subjective. If you want to remain happy in this hobby, then you should be buying books primarily because you like comic books, not for their potential investment value. You should be using your own grading standards, not what you think CGC will ultimately label it. If you want a CGC graded book, then buy it that way. Additionally, if you are picky (and we all are in our own way) you should insist on large scans for every book you do buy - we have the technology. Do repeat business with those whom you trust.

 

I recall one of the "top 10" sellers around here being offended when I asked for scans of his low-dollar books. It is someone I've had many happy transactions with, and continue to buy from. I pick and choose from amongst his high dollar scanned books, and I don't have a lot of money, so I'm not going to buy low-dollar books blind from him either. I understand that he doesn't have time or feel that it is worthwhile to put the effort into low dollar books - that is AOK. It is not an attack on his grading skills - he is extremely competent - I just do not agree with him 100% of the time. I do not agree with CGC anywhere near 100% of the time either. In fact, there are at least 10 dealers on these boards who I would say are more suited to my personal grading "comfort zone" than CGC is.

 

It all comes down to grading subjectivity and flaw tolerances - some people don't care about date stamps, some do. Some don't cared about miswraps, some do. Some assess a higher grading penalty for certain minute flaws, like corner bumps or creases, or my favorite - ncb bends (wasn't this a CGC invention?). This cannot be captured in any kind of guide. Personally, I'm looking for NM books, but in reality, I'm very happy with 7.0 to 8.5s that "appear" NM. I also don't want to pay NM prices for 7.0s to 8.5s - That's why you have to get down to seeing scans of a book, in lieu of holding it in your hands, so you can make an informed decision.

 

Repeat business with those you trust, quit doing business with those you don't. Communicate openly with dealers, collectors, friends on the transactions - if it is not working out, then cease dealings, get over it and move on to someone you trust with your business. It is the only way you are going to remain happy in this hobby.

[DrWatson]

You sarcastic $$$$$$$$

 

Even Jesus couldn't please everyone and despite Blazing Bob's opinion of himself, he is far from being the Son of God.

 

I'm offended that you would deny me the center of the universe

 

They say our solar system is centered 'round the sun,

Nine planets, large and small, parading by.

But somewhere out in space,

There's another shining face

That you might see some night up in the sky. Interplanet Robert, he's a galaxy guy,

A solar system Mr. from a future world,

He travels like a rocket with his comic team

And there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen,

No, there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen.

 

He's been to the Sun, it's a lot of fun,

It's a hot-spot, It's a gas!

Hydrogen and helium in a big, bright, glowing mass. It's a star, it's a star! So Robert got an autograph!

 

Mercury was near the Sun so Robert stopped by,

But the mercury on Mercury was much too high, so

Robert split for Venus but on Venus he found

He couldn't see a thing for all the clouds around.

Earth looked exciting, kind of green and inviting,

So Robert thought he'd give it a go.

But the creatures on that planet looked so very weird to Robert,

He didn't even dare to say hello.

 

It's a bird, it's a plane! Why, it must be a UFO, but it was:

Interplanet Robert, he's a galaxy guy,

A solar system Mr. from a future world,

He travels like a rocket with his comic team

And there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen,

No, there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen.

 

Mars is red and Jupiter's big

And Saturn shows off its rings.

Uranus is built on a funny tilt

And Neptune is its twin,

And Pluto, little Pluto, is the farthest planet from the Sun.

 

They say our solar system is not alone in space.

The Universe has endless mystery.

Some future astronaut

May find out that what he'd thought

Was a shooting star instead turned out to be... Interplanet Robert, he's a galaxy guy,

A solar system Mr. from a future world,

He travels like a rocket with his comic team

And there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen,

No, there's never been a planet Robert hasn't seen.

[TupennyConan]

Jiminy Crickets Watson!

[DrWatson]

Jiminy Crickets Watson!

Schoolhouse Rock...

[topofthetotem]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

[DrWatson]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

[topofthetotem]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

I thought the post had a nice juxtaposition compared to all the serious post around it.

 

At least it wasn't plagiarized.

[arexcrooke]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

I thought the post had a nice juxtaposition compared to all the serious post around it.

 

At least it wasn't plagiarized.

[DrWatson]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

I thought the post had a nice juxtaposition compared to all the serious post around it.

 

At least it wasn't plagiarized.

Haven't you ever heard of, "change a word, claim a third."

 

 

[topofthetotem]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

I thought the post had a nice juxtaposition compared to all the serious post around it.

 

At least it wasn't plagiarized.

Haven't you ever heard of, "change a word, claim a third."

 

BTW how ever long airmail takes so I guess 2 weeks give or take.

[chromium]

This was a post I started a thread with about five weeks ago. Its relevance is extremely high to the topic at hand...

 

SNIP

 

So you're not only a Flaming Telepath, a sometimes Flaming Telegraph but a Flaming Clairvoyant as well

I'm wondering what other "Flaming" personalities you have hidden in your closet

You been hittin' the fire water again, Indian?

I thought the post had a nice juxtaposition compared to all the serious post around it.

 

At least it wasn't plagiarized.

 

[arexcrooke]

[chromium]

[arexcrooke]

[DrWatson]

Belgian hick love.