Interesting quote I read today

[xrcst]

I figured I'd leave you guys with this before I went to bed and catch up on the thread later tongiht.

 

I was reading my Computer games magazine, and within an article that is talking about the community kids, people can find in playing games, or D&D, actually doing some good as opposed to all the bad that some opponets say they are. The writer gave this quote. Feel free to check the validity of it or the context, I just found it curious and thought I would post it here.

 

"Up to the beginning of the comic-book era there were hardly any serious crimes such as murder by children under twelve....So we adults who permit comic books are accessories."

 

From "Seduction of the Innocent" by Dr. Fredric Wertham.

 

 

Feel free to get in a discussion about the truth of the statement and what not. I just found it curious, that the statement could be true based on actual chronology....before the comic book era, not many serious crimes by kids, and since...well look at the last ten years. Im not saying the causal link is true, just that it struck me odd that that era defining point could be made.

 

Hope all that made sense...I'm tired and just typing.

[Darthdiesel]

Wertham is god...he knows all

 

I'd say that it is just coincidence and I'm not a psych major or statistician, but I think there is a term for taking two or more unrelated cuases and effects and tying them together to make a relationship appear to exist among them...oh yeah, the term is coincidence

[ArAich]

"Up to the beginning of the comic-book era there were hardly any serious crimes such as murder, that were recorded, by children under twelve....So we adults who permit comic books are accessories."

 

I added 3 words that would probably make the actual quote more precise...

[RTBrandy]

I gotta agree with the recorded part. Hell, didn't he see gangs of New York?!! Lots of kids killing there.

[Wertham-migration]

Coincidence deleted by Wertham

[Kevin Boyd]

I would say that since Wertham was writing in the 1950's and Scorcese finally made and released Gangs of New York last year that it is highly unlikely that Wertham had seen Gangs of New York.

 

That being said, the book Gangs of New York: An Informal History of the Underworld by Herbert Asbury was published in 1927, so it is feasible that Wertham could have read the book.

 

Given his penchant for sensationalism in his fact-finding it probably would not have suited his purposes to explore the past. Truth is, juvenile delinquincy was a problem in the 1950's (post-war baby boomers in abundance) and he needed a cause. Being a theoretical scientist Wertham looked for an external cause, rather than an internal one for the upsurge in child and teen problems. Almost all kids read comic books - therefore comic books must be the cause.

 

Just like today's social scientists will automatically blame violent video games for similar problems.

 

Kev

[garthgantu]

What about Rock and Roll? Surely that was the cause of most delinquency in the '50s !

[sborock]

"Just like today's social scientists will automatically blame violent video games for similar problems. "

 

Really? I thought they would blame CGC

 

Just kidding. Great answer Kev

 

[chrisco37]

I thought they would blame CGC

 

Some of us do!

 

Chris

[rob_react]

I blame Warren Ellis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and cgc!

[drbanner]

I blame Bobby Bowden and his free shoes, department store discount-givin', misdemeanor-prayin', Warsaw-rulin', and referee-bribin' ways!!

[Kevin Boyd]

For teens maybe, but not kids. And delinquency was an issue before rock and roll became a pop cultural phenomenon. You might as well say big band jazz was the root cause.

 

But I don't think Wertham didn't say it wasn't a factor, it's just that comics were a factor in all of the cases he studied as all kids liked comic books of some kind.

 

Only some were into jazz, big band and later rock and roll. More were into monster/horror/crime/action movies but movies were still adhering to the Hayes code so they could only be subtly subversive and rarely offensive. It's actually a very logical analysis - identify all common factors and then come to a conclusion. In all his cases, comics were present therefore comics were at fault.

 

Completely wrong however, but his methods were interesting. I believe he used Freudian and/or Jungian analysis to the comics he read and came up with some very bizarre hypotheses.

 

Kev

[rob_react]

I bet they all drank milk too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MILK IS EVIL!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I blame milk.

[Kevin Boyd]

If they were doing a similar study today, then diet would not be ruled out as a factor.

 

Could have been the fluoride that was being added to the water in some areas.

 

It could have been that the CIA was testing MK-Ultra in the ink of comic books and brainwashing young americans.

 

Or it could have been that Wertham couldn't come up with an answer for why some children were behaving oddly while in reality they were reacting to a new culture that was healing from the trauma of World War II (loss of fathers and grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc.) while also enjoying unparalled economic growth and an evolving social culture of mass consumption and disposability.

 

Kev

[garthgantu]

Got Milk - and a zip gun?

[xrcst]

Yeah thats what I was saying...that Ive oftern heard that the decline of our society was due to many things...Tv, Rock music. Taking Prayer our of schools...just never heard Comic books as the causal link.

[read_em-migration]

"Up to the beginning of the comic-book era there were hardly any serious crimes such as murder by children under twelve....So we adults who permit comic books are accessories."

 

Is Wertham refering to the same kids he visited in prison? The way I hear it, Wertham would ask these kids all sorts of questions, one being something like "What do you like to do? Do you have any hobbys?" And then they'd answer "yeah, I like to read comic books" and then BAM! There's your proof - comics corrupted those kids!

 

[ninanina]

All I've ever read in comics as a kid, were the good guys always win, and the bad guys lose. I'd call that a pretty good influence on any kid. I don't remember reading anything about how to kill a person in 5 easy lessons, or where to go to find drugs, or how to buy booze while your still 12 years old etc. etc. etc. I am thinking this was learned by some of the kids that didn't read comics on the street by other kids who didn't read comics.