what's better, Cerebus or Bone?

[Kevin Boyd]

I think Following Cerebus is did. Maybe the guys who put out the mag ran out of steam, or perhaps they wouldn't sign his petition...

[thefourzoas-migration]

Dave Sim's views on women are moronic but his work is definitely worth checking out.

[Bronty]

Its certainly an extreme viewpoint but its not without some truth. What he's saying is that conversations like this happen:

 

Husband: sweetheart, we really can't afford that car right now, let's wait a year and then buy it. (reasoned argument)

 

Wife: you don't love me anymore. (emotional response)

 

Husband: OK, OK we'll buy it. (acquiesence - emotion trumps reason every time)

 

The tenet from which he starts off is true, and you can't really argue the logic along the way... but it does end up at a conclusion that just doesn't feel right. (of course he'd say that there's no such thing as a conclusion that doesn't feel right since there's no place for emotion in logic, but I digress).

 

And yes it is a much more feminine world than it was 50 years ago, think about it. Whether that's good bad or indifferent depends on your viewpoint but its undeniably true.

 

I find his ideas really interesting in an academic way but also thoroughly pointless since the real world does have juxtapositions of reason and emotion. And while he is quick to point out the weaknesses of the way women run their lives, he doesn't apply the same scrutiny to the way men run their lives, IMO

[Kevin Boyd]

True enough. And I have many personal theories as to why that is, but I would just be guessing. All I know is that at some point he just decided to retreat from the world to finish his commitment to the work, and at the same time decided to get into these academic discussions about reason and emotion in the back of his magazine.

 

 

 

[thefourzoas-migration]

The problem is making some sort of essentialist, biological or otherwise, argument in regard to the nature of men and women. The assumption that women and their female void overcome the cold hard logic and rationalism of men is quite frankly silly. This sort of idea is not supported scientifically. In my mind the overreaction on Sim's part of a 'feminist' dominated world seems to be hysterical and emotionally based.

 

In spite of this I have been working through the early phone books and they are really good. Many authors have personal opinions and views that spill into their work that I find distasteful or disagree with but I don't think this should mean all of their work is worthless or not worth reading.

[Kevin Boyd]

Cerebus is fantasy and it's social satire. It is fundamentally flawed in many ways and profoundly brilliant and insightful in others. At times it is riveting and at others it is almost completely unreadable and mind-numbingly slow.

 

It's probably why High Society (which is first and foremost about politics) is the strongest chapter in the series, as it deals with the least controversial subject matter.

[Ogami]

what's better, Cerebus or Bone?

 

GROO!!!!

 

I was gonna reply, "yes" to the OP till I saw the win that was this reply.

 

Read all three. Enjoy their singular uniqueness.

[Ogami]

 

The "issue" of Jeff's wife started the whole Sim/Smith rift, but I don't know if that was the inspiration for those stories. I'll guess that it is though.

 

Please illuminate us...

 

The "infamous" Jeff Smith interview

 

Dave Sim's response to the interview

 

A short review of the aftermath. (about a third of the way down)

 

ty for posting this.

[He11blazer]

...

 

Bone is simply a pretty good comic book, with some nice cartoony craftsmanship. My problem is that it started out as a really funny book and soon turned into LOTR for pre-teens. What the industry needed was a new Walt Kelly, not Elfquest for 8-year olds.

 

I've just read the single volume edition from start to finish and agree completely. I enjoyed reading it all, but the truth is it that it really goes downhill after the cow race.

 

There are still lots of funny moments, cute pics and original touches, but you have to wade through all this derivative and sub-standard genre stuff.

[Ogami]

Its certainly an extreme viewpoint but its not without some truth. What he's saying is that conversations like this happen:

 

Husband: sweetheart, we really can't afford that car right now, let's wait a year and then buy it. (reasoned argument)

 

Wife: you don't love me anymore. (emotional response)

 

Husband: OK, OK we'll buy it. (acquiesence - emotion trumps reason every time)

 

The tenet from which he starts off is true, and you can't really argue the logic along the way... but it does end up at a conclusion that just doesn't feel right. (of course he'd say that there's no such thing as a conclusion that doesn't feel right since there's no place for emotion in logic, but I digress).

 

And yes it is a much more feminine world than it was 50 years ago, think about it. Whether that's good bad or indifferent depends on your viewpoint but its undeniably true.

 

I find his ideas really interesting in an academic way but also thoroughly pointless since the real world does have juxtapositions of reason and emotion. And while he is quick to point out the weaknesses of the way women run their lives, he doesn't apply the same scrutiny to the way men run their lives, IMO

 

I had this discussion with Roy some months back and I like your analysis. My way of saying it would be to say he's not half wrong. He's just a loon.

 

Bad marriage. Ugly divorce. Brilliant artist, Part time philosopher with some half sound ideas (as you rightly point out, our culture is much more feminized than it's ever been, and men feel the pressure of being in a box created beyond their control) all lead to a bit of truth doused by nuttiness.

[Ogami]

...

 

Bone is simply a pretty good comic book, with some nice cartoony craftsmanship. My problem is that it started out as a really funny book and soon turned into LOTR for pre-teens. What the industry needed was a new Walt Kelly, not Elfquest for 8-year olds.

 

I've just read the single volume edition from start to finish and agree completely. I enjoyed reading it all, but the truth is it that it really goes downhill after the cow race.

 

There are still lots of funny moments, cute pics and original touches, but you have to wade through all this derivative and sub-standard genre stuff.

 

you aren't the first to say that, but Smith actually adressed this in an interview to some detractors who basically said the same thing.

 

He stated that the first part (1/4?) was intentionally light and fun to establish an affection for the characters that he was about to change forever, the town that he was about to wreak havoc on.

 

There is a tonal shift in the work, no question, but I think many readers appreciate it.

[He11blazer]

 

The "issue" of Jeff's wife started the whole Sim/Smith rift, but I don't know if that was the inspiration for those stories. I'll guess that it is though.

 

Please illuminate us...

 

The "infamous" Jeff Smith interview

 

Dave Sim's response to the interview

 

A short review of the aftermath. (about a third of the way down)

 

ty for posting this.

 

Wow, that was certainly an unusual turn of events! I'd bet good money that Sim has a diagnosable mental disorder.

 

I really must pick up and read Cerebus one of these days. Sounds like quite a ride, despite Sim's apparent irrationality and instability.

 

[He11blazer]

...

 

Bone is simply a pretty good comic book, with some nice cartoony craftsmanship. My problem is that it started out as a really funny book and soon turned into LOTR for pre-teens. What the industry needed was a new Walt Kelly, not Elfquest for 8-year olds.

 

I've just read the single volume edition from start to finish and agree completely. I enjoyed reading it all, but the truth is it that it really goes downhill after the cow race.

 

There are still lots of funny moments, cute pics and original touches, but you have to wade through all this derivative and sub-standard genre stuff.

 

you aren't the first to say that, but Smith actually adressed this in an interview to some detractors who basically said the same thing.

 

He stated that the first part (1/4?) was intentionally light and fun to establish an affection for the characters that he was about to change forever, the town that he was about to wreak havoc on.

 

There is a tonal shift in the work, no question, but I think many readers appreciate it.

 

Funnily enough I've just been off to read some interviews and found the same thing. I see what he's getting at, but I still enjoyed the fluffy introduction more than the meat

[Bronty]

you know one thing about Cerebus that I haven't seen discussed that is a couple of notches above everybody else is the lettering. He makes it an actual part of the story and the dialogue has intonations and inferences that can be drawn from it that you could never have with your standard marvel/dc lettering.

 

It sounds like a small thing but its not. Between the quality of the dialogue (eg chilly words from jaka ) and the lettering (eg icicles hanging off those chilly words, pictorially) the characterizations are often at really another level.

[kidcolt]

I vote for Bone and Usagi Yojimbo.

[He11blazer]

you know one thing about Cerebus that I haven't seen discussed that is a couple of notches above everybody else is the lettering. He makes it an actual part of the story and the dialogue has intonations and inferences that can be drawn from it that you could never have with your standard marvel/dc lettering.

 

It sounds like a small thing but its not. Between the quality of the dialogue (eg chilly words from jaka ) and the lettering (eg icicles hanging off those chilly words, pictorially) the characterizations are often at really another level.

 

That reminds me of Sandman. Each of the endless had their own distinctive lettering, from Dream's white-on-black to Delirium's psychedelic wibble writing

[Ogami]

I vote for Bone and Usagi Yojimbo.

 

changing the tenor of this trio mentioned to a worthy quartet.

[Bronty]

It's probably why High Society (which is first and foremost about politics) is the strongest chapter in the series, as it deals with the least controversial subject matter.

 

they are definitely the least controversial but far from the strongest chapters IMO... again what makes cerebus cerebus if you ask me is all the stuff that came afterward which whether you agree or disagree with the tone of it is so much interesting than the straightforward stuff it began with.

 

That being said......... Beat the Hsiffies, buy bonds!!

[Bronty]

Usagi is really good but at its root its really just a bunny version of Lone Wolf, you know? I'd rather read the actual Lone Wolf books.

[Ogami]

Usagi is really good but at its root its really just a bunny version of Lone Wolf, you know? I'd rather read the actual Lone Wolf books.

 

while I agree with your analysis of Cerebus, I disagree with the above.

 

And I think you can see from my avatar, that I'm a big fan of LW&C.

 

"just a bunny version of..."

 

If by that, you mean a samurai story involivng a central character during the Edo period of Japan, circa 1500-1700's, then sure, but that's way too general.

 

If by that, you mean the core material is too similar, I couldn't disagree more.

 

At it's heart, LW&C is a story of a father and son, (one of the greatest, in my humble opinion, ever written), and further, one of the greatest revenge stories ever penned, up there with The Count of Monte Cristo and The Stars My Destination. Further, it is an indepth study of the period, the politics, the peoples, the samurai philosophy and finally (although it is so much more than I'm stating here), it is a modern telling of an ancient hero. A very American, very humanistic, very existentialist post modern hero. Ogami at his core, makes his own code to live by, and it is this foreignness that those around him admire the most. He is the last true living samurai.

 

UY has no wife, no family, a son that he's unaware of, no ties, no revenge to carry out, and no real drive, other than being the best samurai he can possibly be. In fact, I'd compare Usagi more to the blind swordsman, (Zatoichie?) or a Japanese version of Robin Hood than Ogami. There is no real angst or passion underlying UY, and while it is a great read, I couldn't find it to be more different than LW&C.