So what do you think the future of comics holds in store??/

[500Club]

 

Thanks for clarifying, Bronty. Perhaps the point is clearer to him now...

 

I was merely pointing out that your statement was untrue.

 

Are you a lawyer?

 

I can see you grilling the witness.... 'but....isn't it true that the 7-11 on the corner still has a n Archie title hidden among the magazines?'

 

Are you an id iot? There are dozens of stores in my neighborhood that sell Marvel & DC books.

 

so the newstand market is alive and well huh?

 

He missed that point in my original quote. Somehow.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Oh I see. So what you are trying to say, if you weren't suggesting that the newstand market is alive and well, was:

 

"There are dozens of stores in my neighborhood that *unsuccessfully attempt to* sell *three or four* Marvel & DC *titles a month*."

 

Are we getting there yet? You seem to be a little defensive. Why not just accept the obvious fact that comics books don't sell/barely sell at newstands? I mean I can't believe you even bothered bringing up that they *technically* still have an (incredibly pathetic) newstand presence.

 

 

It's 'newsstand'

[500Club]

Oh I see. So what you are trying to say, if you weren't suggesting that the newstand market is alive and well, was:

 

"There are dozens of stores in my neighborhood that *unsuccessfully attempt to* sell *three or four* Marvel & DC *titles a month*."

 

Are we getting there yet? You seem to be a little defensive. Why not just accept the obvious fact that comics books don't sell/barely sell at newstands? I mean I can't believe you even bothered bringing up that they *technically* still have an (incredibly pathetic) newstand presence.

 

 

It's 'newsstand'

 

Objection, counsellor.

 

Irrelevant, petty and off-topic.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Oh I see. So what you are trying to say, if you weren't suggesting that the newstand market is alive and well, was:

 

"There are dozens of stores in my neighborhood that *unsuccessfully attempt to* sell *three or four* Marvel & DC *titles a month*."

 

Are we getting there yet? You seem to be a little defensive. Why not just accept the obvious fact that comics books don't sell/barely sell at newstands? I mean I can't believe you even bothered bringing up that they *technically* still have an (incredibly pathetic) newstand presence.

 

 

It's 'newsstand'

 

Objection, counsellor.

 

Irrelevant, petty and off-topic.

 

 

Withdrawn........

[thehumantorch]

Then market for the casual reader is effectively dead and the vast majority of comics are sold through comic specialty store that serve the collector. If someone enjoyed a recent hollywood blcokbuster comic driven movie and wanted to pick up a comic based on that character he would have a problem finding it at the local 7-11. The fact that far fewer new comics are sold than anytime between the GA and BA bodes badly for the majority of back issues.

 

If you love comics and want to buy FF1 then buy it. If it goes up in value, great. If it goes down in value will it really matter to your overall health and wealth? In this economy I wouldn't pay over GPA for the book. There are lots of copies out there.

[500Club]

[djpinkpanther67]

The speculation of a crash in value of books isn't viable (sorry JC )

I started collecting in the mid 70's, and in 8 years had amassed the complete runs of every Marvel Superhero title (and some DCs - Adams/Wrightson - that I coveted as well) Hell I had reader duplicate runs of FF from #20-242, ASM 12-230, UXM 94-205 just to name a few). I was buying at least two copies of everything off the rack from '76 thru '81 and buying duplicate SA back issues for cheap. I look at the market now and am wondering "What crash?"

Even in the 90's when moderns suffered a price drop, BA and SA books have always remained consistent. And will continue to do so, especially keys...

 

So to summarize, what goes up must keep going up, and can never fall. Great analysis

And when have YOU ever seen GA/SA book prices DROP in guide or in sales?NEVER is a long time. I'm not talking about moderns/CA either. I'm talking about GA/SA overall, especially keys and anything 9.0 and above with SA. By far the best bet from an investment standpoint within the hobby...As long as there are TWO bidders to juice up a book in any given auction, it's going to carry over to the next time the same grade book is available. This has been consistent with the price increases over the last two years in respect to SA. I HATE the fact I am paying 1000x what I was paying in the 70's-80's for books, but at the same time the appreciation (verified by actual realized prices these books have sold for) for the value of these books have not waned, and it gives me confidence for the next 20 or so years.

FF #1 in 6.0 has DOUBLED in GPA/realized prices over the last 8 months, and not just one or two sales - EVERY SALE has seen this "phenomenon." I believe this anomaly will continue...

And let's not get into AF #15

[Bronty]

high grade has always been the best bet in the past. is it still? Doesn't it worry you that everybody sees those books as being the best investment and has for years now? Kind of like when your barber started talking about internet stocks circa 2001?

 

At some price level hg books have to stop being a good investment, no? If not I guess Avengers 16 in 9.0 is a great deal at $100,000.

[Flemmings]

The speculation of a crash in value of books isn't viable (sorry JC )

I started collecting in the mid 70's, and in 8 years had amassed the complete runs of every Marvel Superhero title (and some DCs - Adams/Wrightson - that I coveted as well) Hell I had reader duplicate runs of FF from #20-242, ASM 12-230, UXM 94-205 just to name a few). I was buying at least two copies of everything off the rack from '76 thru '81 and buying duplicate SA back issues for cheap. I look at the market now and am wondering "What crash?"

Even in the 90's when moderns suffered a price drop, BA and SA books have always remained consistent. And will continue to do so, especially keys...

 

So to summarize, what goes up must keep going up, and can never fall. Great analysis

And when have YOU ever seen GA/SA book prices DROP in guide or in sales?NEVER is a long time. I'm not talking about moderns/CA either. I'm talking about GA/SA overall, especially keys and anything 9.0 and above with SA. By far the best bet from an investment standpoint within the hobby...As long as there are TWO bidders to juice up a book in any given auction, it's going to carry over to the next time the same grade book is available. This has been consistent with the price increases over the last two years in respect to SA. I HATE the fact I am paying 1000x what I was paying in the 70's-80's for books, but at the same time the appreciation (verified by actual realized prices these books have sold for) for the value of these books have not waned, and it gives me confidence for the next 20 or so years.

FF #1 in 6.0 has DOUBLED in GPA/realized prices over the last 8 months, and not just one or two sales - EVERY SALE has seen this "phenomenon." I believe this anomaly will continue...

And let's not get into AF #15

 

GA/SA comics drop all the time. They may not drop in the guide, but try to sell a collection of non-key GA/SA comics for guide and how well you sell them. If they did sell for guide how come when you go to a convention you can get 50-60% off on GA non-key comics. Its because they dealer knows thats the only way they will most likely sell them. If that wasn't the case they wouldn't have to set up a conventions.

 

Yes you are right about as long as there are two bidders, any comic will sell well. But in the future where will these two bidders come from? Comic book collectors/readers/fans are dying at a faster rate than they are born. How many people saw 300/Sin City/Batman/Superman/Spider-man or whatever movie that has come out, bought the original comic instead of the tradepaper back? Not many, because when new fans see the prices they turn and head for the tpb. They people that are buying up the original comics are people who were already fans or returning fans.

[RikkiB]

But the astronomical prices being paid for these books are predominantly from 30-60 year olds with the income to pay those prices, no? 20 years from now, when the mid 30 year olds are thinking ahead to retirement, will there be enough comic collectors left to sustain the prices and pay that much? I would assume that today's current younger generation would be more apt to spend the money on something that they had an interest in growing up and try to start up their own software/gaming, etc company or something more familiar to them than to spend the $200K buying an Amazing Fantasy #15 9.2.

[djpinkpanther67]

high grade has always been the best bet in the past. is it still? Doesn't it worry you that everybody sees those books as being the best investment and has for years now? Kind of like when your barber started talking about internet stocks circa 2001?

 

At some price level hg books have to stop being a good investment, no? If not I guess Avengers 16 in 9.0 is a great deal at $100,000.

That's an extreme example and will likely never happen. We will see over the next year or so if the prices remain consistent on these HG SA's... My theory is that they will level out and not increase, but not decrease either...

I feel these extreme prices are just bidding wars over individuals over books with potential or people setting insanely high max bids and getting stuck because someone else did the same thing.

 

My point is simply the CONSISTENCY to which these books have appreciated has always been consistent over the past 25+ years, with occasional spikes over bid happy folks with deep pockets. Prices may not increase exponentially as they have lately, but it's doubtful that a downward spiral will occur. Again it's merely my opinion. I'm not into collecting for purely investment. Never have been.

The telling factor is the "new breed" of collectors who may or may not stay in the hobby long term.

They will determine future FMV of these books.

Personally if the books DO depriciate, I would be a buying summamumbiatch because of my love of the hobby. Nothing more. I don't buy to flip I buy to collect, thus whether or not the value rises or falls it won't affect me either way

[Bronty]

af15 in 9.2 I don't think is the issue; there will be someone with the dough to snap that up no problem. but thor 126 for 10k because its.... uh.. the... 43rd book in the thor series? hero for hire 1 for 10k because he accessorizes his afro with a sparkly upside-down tiara? avengers 16 in 9.0 for 3k?

 

Much shakier bets.

[Bronty]

high grade has always been the best bet in the past. is it still? Doesn't it worry you that everybody sees those books as being the best investment and has for years now? Kind of like when your barber started talking about internet stocks circa 2001?

 

At some price level hg books have to stop being a good investment, no? If not I guess Avengers 16 in 9.0 is a great deal at $100,000.

That's an extreme example and will likely never happen. We will see over the next year or so if the prices remain consistent on these HG SA's... My theory is that they will level out and not increase, but not decrease either...

I feel these extreme prices are just bidding wars over individuals over books with potential or people setting insanely high max bids and getting stuck because someone else did the same thing.

 

My point is simply the CONSISTENCY to which these books have appreciated has always been consistent over the past 25+ years, with occasional spikes over bid happy folks with deep pockets. Prices may not increase exponentially as they have lately, but it's doubtful that a downward spiral will occur. Again it's merely my opinion. I'm not into collecting for purely investment. Never have been.

The telling factor is the "new breed" of collectors who may or may not stay in the hobby long term.

They will determine future FMV of these books.

Personally if the books DO depriciate, I would be a buying summamumbiatch because of my love of the hobby. Nothing more. I don't buy to flip I buy to collect, thus whether or not the value rises or falls it won't affect me either way

 

well again as another poster pointed out they HAVEN'T consistently appreciated. non-key issues/titles in non-uber grades (most books!!) do not do well and are down. Not to even mention that the average person looking to buy unrestored NM in the 80s often got a vf restored book for his troubles.

 

Its really only the special books that have gone up consistently, at the expense of all the rest.

 

Let's say there are 10,000 flash #200s in circulation with a cumulative value of $100,000. That 100k used to be spread pretty even amongst the 10,000 books. Now 90% of the value is in 1% of the books.

[awe4one]

Let's say there are 10,000 flash #200s in circulation with a cumulative value of $100,000. That 100k used to be spread pretty even amongst the 10,000 books. Now 90% of the value is in 1% of the books.

 

That's an excellent example of what's happening in the current market... (thumbs u

 

Jim

[djpinkpanther67]

af15 in 9.2 I don't think is the issue; there will be someone with the dough to snap that up no problem. but thor 126 for 10k because its.... uh.. the... 43rd book in the thor series? hero for hire 1 for 10k because he accessorizes his afro with a sparkly upside-down tiara? avengers 16 in 9.0 for 3k?

 

Much shakier bets.

THAT point I do agree with, but all the same, they will still retain their appeal and thus still retain most if not all their investment potential.

I have three sons, 14, 16 and 23 years of age who collect as well. They themselves love comics, more so CA and older books when the quality of the stories and art were better. Yes better.

They have repeatedly expressed the fact that when they graduate college and are making a comfortable income, they will undoubtably still collect and venture into the foray of (gasp) higher grade older books...

My 23 year old collects early Bat Tecs and Bats and has $8K saved so far for an eventual Tec 27 purchase. He told me he will eventually get one and I believe him.

The hobby is not dead as long as we introduce and educate our children and others of significance in our lives about the hobby, and they learn to appreciate it. I for the most part dislike DCs, but when I bought my oldest son readers of the Adams Batman run and a hardbound reprinting a bunch of the early Batman Tecs, he was hooked...

That was 10 years ago and he has an impressive Batman/Tec collection now

 

[djpinkpanther67]

high grade has always been the best bet in the past. is it still? Doesn't it worry you that everybody sees those books as being the best investment and has for years now? Kind of like when your barber started talking about internet stocks circa 2001?

 

At some price level hg books have to stop being a good investment, no? If not I guess Avengers 16 in 9.0 is a great deal at $100,000.

That's an extreme example and will likely never happen. We will see over the next year or so if the prices remain consistent on these HG SA's... My theory is that they will level out and not increase, but not decrease either...

I feel these extreme prices are just bidding wars over individuals over books with potential or people setting insanely high max bids and getting stuck because someone else did the same thing.

 

My point is simply the CONSISTENCY to which these books have appreciated has always been consistent over the past 25+ years, with occasional spikes over bid happy folks with deep pockets. Prices may not increase exponentially as they have lately, but it's doubtful that a downward spiral will occur. Again it's merely my opinion. I'm not into collecting for purely investment. Never have been.

The telling factor is the "new breed" of collectors who may or may not stay in the hobby long term.

They will determine future FMV of these books.

Personally if the books DO depriciate, I would be a buying summamumbiatch because of my love of the hobby. Nothing more. I don't buy to flip I buy to collect, thus whether or not the value rises or falls it won't affect me either way

 

well again as another poster pointed out they HAVEN'T consistently appreciated. non-key issues/titles in non-uber grades (most books!!) do not do well and are down. Not to even mention that the average person looking to buy unrestored NM in the 80s often got a vf restored book for his troubles.

 

Its really only the special books that have gone up consistently, at the expense of all the rest.

 

Let's say there are 10,000 flash #200s in circulation with a cumulative value of $100,000. That 100k used to be spread pretty even amongst the 10,000 books. Now 90% of the value is in 1% of the books.

Another valid point, but again they may not have appreciated consistently, but also haven't DEPRICIATED with any significance since the advent of CGC..., these books keep getting sold, and always will barring some HUUUUUGE scandal (cough ) that would completely discredit 3rd party grading irreparably. Also, the chance of a sudden warehouse find of 200+ copies of each HG SA book that would flood the market and bring values down is unlikely in this day and age.

 

BTW I feel the midgrade to lower end HG books will eventually get their due, (once HG whores like myself are out of the hobby )

[COI]

The wealthiest generation also happens to be the generation that was buying SA off of the news stands. Many of them also happen to be entering their peak earning years, or have already topped out, financially. They're the ones currently holding up the market, and to suggest that future generations will even have the money, let alone the desire to keep buying these books at prices that will allow for consistent growth, is wishful thinking at best.

 

Broken record here.

 

 

 

 

[djpinkpanther67]

The wealthiest generation also happens to be the generation that was buying SA off of the news stands. Many of them also happen to be entering their peak earning years, or have already topped out, financially. They're the ones currently holding up the market, and to suggest that future generations will even have the money, let alone the desire to keep buying these books at prices that will allow for consistent growth, is wishful thinking at best.

 

Broken record here.

 

 

 

They were saying the same thing about GA 25 years ago :shrug: at least the comic geeks I hung out with prophesized...

With the advent of the internet (and the public awareness the hobby has received over the last decade due to this), I don't think it's going to be the crushing demise some people think. These aren't Cabbage Patch Kids or Tickle Me Elmos...

 

The real problem right now is that basically Moderns suck azz and no one cares about mainstream titles as much as they used to, save for preserving their run...

Sad times for moderns, which ARE in jeopardy IMO...

 

[joe_collector]

The speculation of a crash in value of books isn't viable

 

So you're actually saying that if you were to go into a cryogenic sleep for 400 years, you'd wake up to see your comic collection still appreciating by 20% per annum?

 

Sorry but,

[joe_collector]

And when have YOU ever seen GA/SA book prices DROP in guide or in sales?NEVER is a long time.

 

Wow, I guess you weren't around from 1995-97 or so, as you were probably like the rest of the speculators, running and hiding when the chromium market crashed.

 

If not, you would know that many GA and SA books were sold at discount during that period, due to overall market softness and bad financial times for store owners.

 

Only CGC brought the market artificially back, and in a big hurry.