What do you think the ComicConnect Action #1 will sell for?

[Bronty]

He entered the hobby with a lot of money. He got burned by paying more than market for many books and being sold undisclosed restored books..He was used and abused...He dumped his books within a year or so at a big time loss. (Certainly a CGC would have helped him enormously.) But the pirhannas circled him like red meat in a pond.jb

 

An unfortunately common scenario that has played out many times over the years.

That has happened so many times in this hobby it's frightening. It just blows my mind that dealers in this hobby would rather pluck all the low-hanging fruit and then chop down the tree to maximize short-term gains rather than cultivating a potential money tree that could yield some serious long-term benefit.

 

well its your classic prisoner's dilemma.

 

you can rip the guy off or you can cultivate the customer. What's best for dealers as a whole is to cultivate the customer. What's best for any one dealer as an individual is to maximize short term profit.

[Bronty]

\

Finally, there are a lot of people out there with a lot of money that are looking for places to put it. I mean there is a lot of stupid/smart crazy(like a fox) rich folks where 1 million isn't even a sneeze. The only they fear is looking foolish as they pay too much.

 

But why would they want to put their money into a small and inefficient market that is hard to understand and has some arcane preferences and prejudices? If you want to park your money, there are many places to be parking it right now. Stocks and real estate are both far more attractive today than they were a year ago. And the art markets are more efficient, understandable, and safer. I'm not at all sure that there are many (any?) pure non-fan investors spending big bucks for comics. And, as far as I can tell, institutional investors have decided the comic market is too thin and small to interest them.

 

Mr. Duck, I think your observations are the most interesting and original in this thread. The idea that it would make sense for anyone without a sincere passion for and a deep knowledge about comics to "invest" is pretty ridiculous. Statistically, what an investor with no background in the market should expect to encounter would fall somewhere in the range between a snake-oil salesman and a used car dealership. Personally, I think a large part of the reason for the relatively low prices paid for comics is that most wealthy investors are smart enough to recognize this. I would strongly encourage all dealers to be as dishonest as they possibly can so that we can continue to scare off investors. Then we can continue to share the pool of existing comics between those of us who care enough to invest the time it takes to learn how to tiptoe around the financial minefield that the hobby is.

 

The only reason I'm still around to buy these books must be due to a combination of low intelligence and a profound interest in Golden Age comics. I would encourage any potential investor to ask him-/herself whether they possess at least one of these qualities. Otherwise investing in comics is not for them.

 

Two words: "Al Capps"

 

Jon;

 

Now that's a name that brings back some memories from the past.

 

I remember he was advertising like crazy to pick up investment quality GA books at top dollar. When he talked to me, he told me that he was able to acquire only one book as a result of all those ads placed over the years.

 

Any idea what he is up to now?

 

He entered the hobby with a lot of money. He got burned by paying more than market for many books and being sold undisclosed restored books..He was used and abused...He dumped his books within a year or so at a big time loss. (Certainly a CGC would have helped him enormously.) But the pirhannas circled him like red meat in a pond.

 

jb

 

Al would have been fine if he hadnt fallen in love overnight (with a persuasive hand at his back) with animation cels. He unloaded his best book for Disney cels.... which have underperformed, especially at the prices he paid.

 

what book was that?

[tth2]

he was paying 100s of 1000s. what do they sell for now?

 

Seriously? That's mind-boggling. Aren't there like a zillion cels from each animated movie, and even prime scenes would have lots of very similar cels. If he was paying $100K+ for cels, wouldn't that make the combined value of all cels from Snow White worth upwards of $100 million?

 

If that's what they were selling for, then I take back my comment. I've seen cels sell for just under $10K, which I thought was really expensive. I have to admit I know nothing about the market, how many cels survived, what are considered prime cels, etc.

[Bronty]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

[lou_fine]

Their last auction was less than a rousing success, despite "S" putting up his Showcase 4 (reportedly a book he held somewhat dearly) as the jewel.

 

Yes, the Showcase #4 was a special book for Steve!

 

I had forgotten that he had placed it on the last CC auction. Did the books end up selling or did it fail to hit the reserve?

 

Faint memories of something like $160K, but I would definitely be interested in finding out what happened to this book in the end.

[G.A.tor]

Their last auction was less than a rousing success, despite "S" putting up his Showcase 4 (reportedly a book he held somewhat dearly) as the jewel.

 

Yes, the Showcase #4 was a special book for Steve!

 

I had forgotten that he had placed it on the last CC auction. Did the books end up selling or did it fail to hit the reserve?

 

Faint memories of something like $160K, but I would definitely be interested in finding out what happened to this book in the end.

I believe it did hammer and sell for $160K

[tth2]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

[Bronty]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

[shiverbones]

The survival rate of cells from the early Disney classics is pretty low. They are easily damaged, were considered junk for decades. Also a cel that actually shows a character with eyes open, or doing something dramatic are a smaller fraction of the whole, with many "tween" cels making up a lot of the movement. Backgrounds are FAR harder than cels. I don't have hard figures, but the survival rate of a multi character scene with a matching background is about the same as having a very rare page of original art.

[adamstrange]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

 

There are a million plus cells created for an animated movie as well as dozens of backgrounds. Most al of the cells were wiped clean/destroyed and many of the backgrounds were destroyed or are part of Disney's permanent archives. The backgrounds are usually sold with a cell (so far as I've seen) as it makes for a better visual presentation.

[Moondog]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

 

Bronty, love your avatar! My favorite Kelly WDC cover!

[Aman619]

yes. my understanding is that Al "traded" up the cels for key Disney cels for too much money on the advice of his handler. They were not run of the mill cels and worth real money, but he overpaid and undersold the comics in his eagerness to trade up. And the cel market had stumbled badly during his ownership comared to the comics he originally set out to amass.

 

However, I was not there, nor a confidant of Capps or the seller... just recounting the story as it was told to me. Sorry I dont have more details.

[G.A.tor]

too bad Capps doesn't want an action 1

[Bronty]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

 

Bronty, love your avatar! My favorite Kelly WDC cover!

 

thanks! mine too

[Bronty]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

 

There are a million plus cells created for an animated movie as well as dozens of backgrounds. Most al of the cells were wiped clean/destroyed and many of the backgrounds were destroyed or are part of Disney's permanent archives. The backgrounds are usually sold with a cell (so far as I've seen) as it makes for a better visual presentation.

 

I had an hour long conversation a few months ago with someone who worked in disney's art department for many years and he said that those "archives" are now a pretty sorry sight... stuff just "went missing" over the years and what used to be a large amount of snow white stuff, for example, is now down to a handful of pieces. The stuff that did exist in the archives, of value, has likely been pilfered and resold.

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

Any idea what he is up to now?

 

He entered the hobby with a lot of money. He got burned by paying more than market for many books and being sold undisclosed restored books..He was used and abused...He dumped his books within a year or so at a big time loss. (Certainly a CGC would have helped him enormously.) But the pirhannas circled him like red meat in a pond.

 

jb

 

An all too familar story, unfortunantely. I get the feeling buying big ticket books 20-25 years ago was a dangerous pond to jump into.

[tth2]

Not all the snow whites exist, I don't think, and besides only one out of every couple dozen ? more? cels has a background, the rest are just figures moving

Do any cels have a background? I thought there would normally be only one or a few painted backgrounds for each scene, which is a separate piece of art from the cels, and then the cels, which normally would just be the characters moving, would be filmed over the same piece of background art.

 

So I agree that a cel would be more valuable if it comes with the original background, but still, there must be a lot of backgrounds in a movie too.

 

I am NOT knowledgeable about this stuff but my understanding was that the backgrounds were on certain key cels, not on separate pieces.

 

And yeah, there would be a lot of backgrounds too I guess... hence the price crash

Here's what I was thinking of, a separate static background piece, which each cel would then be filmed over. From the Heritage auction description:

 

"The domineering puppeteer Stromboli attempts to placate the little wooden boy, Pinocchio, in this multi-layered hand inked and hand painted cel with original watercolor background."

 

[tth2]

I had an hour long conversation a few months ago with someone who worked in disney's art department for many years and he said that those "archives" are now a pretty sorry sight... stuff just "went missing" over the years and what used to be a large amount of snow white stuff, for example, is now down to a handful of pieces. The stuff that did exist in the archives, of value, has likely been pilfered and resold.

If cels were going for $100K+, the real surprise here is that ANYTHING is still remaining in the archives.

[adamstrange]

Here's what I was thinking of, a separate static background piece, which each cel would then be filmed over. From the Heritage auction description:

 

You're correct.

[adamstrange]

I had an hour long conversation a few months ago with someone who worked in disney's art department for many years and he said that those "archives" are now a pretty sorry sight... stuff just "went missing" over the years and what used to be a large amount of snow white stuff, for example, is now down to a handful of pieces. The stuff that did exist in the archives, of value, has likely been pilfered and resold.

If cels were going for $100K+, the real surprise here is that ANYTHING is still remaining in the archives.

 

I suspect there are some sequences of the original animation pencil drawings as those are usually worth much less than the color cell and background. For some of the Disney DVD special features they actually show some of the original pencil sequences.