Thoughts on modern values

[Zonker]

I found a thread in the "Ask CGC" forum that talked about the micro-chamber paper needing to be replaced every 7 years. I replied to the last post and asked the question if the CGC grade is still good if micro-chamber isn't replaced in 7 years. Now I can't find that thread. It is like it disappeared or something. What's the deal?

 

Ask CGC Thread

 

Gemma said

We recommend that you have your comics re-encapsulated about every 7 years so that the micro-chamber paper can be changed to keep it at peak effectiveness.

 

No reason to believe the micro-chamber actively does any harm after 7 years. But there's also no way CGC will say their grade is "still good" after it leaves their hands. Storage conditions, handling of the slab, and any other number of factors can change the grade over time. The slab is designed to reasonably protect the book, but nothing is 100%.

[MMMarvel-migration]

I found a thread in the "Ask CGC" forum that talked about the micro-chamber paper needing to be replaced every 7 years. I replied to the last post and asked the question if the CGC grade is still good if micro-chamber isn't replaced in 7 years. Now I can't find that thread. It is like it disappeared or something. What's the deal?

 

Ask CGC Thread

 

Gemma said

We recommend that you have your comics re-encapsulated about every 7 years so that the micro-chamber paper can be changed to keep it at peak effectiveness.

 

No reason to believe the micro-chamber actively does any harm after 7 years. But there's also no way CGC will say their grade is "still good" after it leaves their hands. Storage conditions, handling of the slab, and any other number of factors can change the grade over time. The slab is designed to reasonably protect the book, but nothing is 100%.

 

Hey, I would be happy if they just made a statement that the micro-chamber itself is not harmful to the comic if left in after 7 years and can in fact be left indefinitely without harming comic. It would be stupid to hold CGC responsible for improper storing on the comic owners part. That being said I just remembered the question I tried to post, but never got a response. Can you store your CGC comics on their side or must the be stored flat or upright with CGC label at top. The general consensus I received from board members was that you could basically store them any which way, but if you had to store them on their side it would be best to store with staple side down. I would like a response from CGC about this matter instead of depending on 2nd and 3rd hand responses from board members.

 

[RTBrandy]

OK, now I'm off the topic, too, but, if it were found to be not harmful to the book to be encapsulated for more than 7 years, couldn't you just wrap the whole thing up in Mylar and have a great storage package right there?

 

[MMMarvel-migration]

OK, now I'm off the topic, too, but, if it were found to be not harmful to the book to be encapsulated for more than 7 years, couldn't you just wrap the whole thing up in Mylar and have a great storage package right there?

 

What we need is a limp-wristed brown noser to ask these questions in the Ask CGC thread so they will respond. I can think of a few people that meet those qualifications in here.

[OldSchoolTerry]

OK, now I'm off the topic, too, but, if it were found to be not harmful to the book to be encapsulated for more than 7 years, couldn't you just wrap the whole thing up in Mylar and have a great storage package right there?

 

What we need is a limp-wristed brown noser to ask these questions in the Ask CGC thread so they will respond. I can think of a few people that meet those qualifications in here.

 

Now, there's the MMMarvel I see in the Watercooler! You're usually pretty tame in here by comparison. You be nice now, ok?

[MMMarvel-migration]

OK, now I'm off the topic, too, but, if it were found to be not harmful to the book to be encapsulated for more than 7 years, couldn't you just wrap the whole thing up in Mylar and have a great storage package right there?

 

What we need is a limp-wristed brown noser to ask these questions in the Ask CGC thread so they will respond. I can think of a few people that meet those qualifications in here.

 

Now, there's the MMMarvel I see in the Watercooler! You're usually pretty tame in here by comparison. You be nice now, ok?

 

I have been kinder and gentler of late. Just wanted to see if I still had it.

There is a little bit of truth in what I said though.

[joe_collector]

What we need is a limp-wristed brown noser to ask these questions in the Ask CGC thread so they will respond. I can think of a few people that meet those qualifications in here.

 

This makes me laFF, and I'm wondering who the CGC staFF would listen to, so the question wouldn't get muFFled?

[OldSchoolTerry]

What we need is a limp-wristed brown noser to ask these questions in the Ask CGC thread so they will respond. I can think of a few people that meet those qualifications in here.

 

This makes me laFF, and I'm wondering who the CGC staFF would listen to, so the question wouldn't get muFFled?

 

Let it be said that you're always the master of subtlety, JC......

[Hensley300]

my 2 cents: unless the guy who wrote/penciled the book becomes well known or some obscure character is introduced whom no one paid attention to and becomes a major character later on, most moderns will only be worth the cost of cgc slabbing if that because there are so many unless they were underordered, some crazy limited variant like wolverine nabisco, or there is some printing flaw that makes it very hard to get a 9.8 like (so far) amaz 301 with black/white cover, supes 75 platinum. But if you are investing in moderns for profit, you may be heading down a dead end unless you can be the guy who has the book in high grade first on ebay,like for instance, im sure a modern like hulk 324, while there are many 9.8's out there yet to be graded, might command say, $60 first ebay sale while, as they stack up the 9.8's might only routinely sell for $25-30. Oh, and dont forget movie potential. All years may go up in sales of a particular characters book if a good movie comes out. Then again, if it sucks donkey balls like hulk did, you might be outta luck after the hype dies down. Go for bronze or silver. Thats when collecting was at its purest hobby wise anyways. But then again, if you talk to JC, you might be barking up the wrong tree there too. What to do, what to do with all that money?>

[jduran1]

Good Points. Do you feel there are any moderns that should be slabbed now.??

[MMMarvel-migration]

Good Points. Do you feel there are any moderns that should be slabbed now.??

 

I am sure there are some moderns that are keys or had low print runs that might be worth slabbing. I personally don't think they are worth slabbing unless they are valued over $100+ unless you are a dealer who flips modern comics at such a high volume that it makes since to do so. Most of the time people selling modern CGC comics on Ebay don't even get their slabbing and shipping fees paid for. I have seen many modern CGC lots on Ebay go unsold at $14.95 and $24.95 prices. I think the average cost to get a comic slabbed is around $25 (including shipping both ways to CGC) unless you get some kind of serious discount by doing high volume business with them it just isn't worth slabbing most modern comics.

 

If we are talking moderns 1990 and up I would get HG copies of Uncanny X-men #266 and New Mutants #87 encapsulated. There is another thread in this forum where everyone is picking their top 5 modern comics. I think you would be safe to get HG copies (by HG I mean 9.8 and above) of almost any of those comics slabbed. That being said, you are probably better off just board and bagging 10+ HG copies of a particular key comic and waiting 10-20 years to see if the value increases enough to make getting them slabbed worth it.

[DaethWalker]

The dreck will stay in the $25/30 range. there will be execptions but you'll have to wait a decade or so before it starts shaking out and the gems separate from the dreck....

 

Jim

 

I agree. We have no idea what will be hot 10 - 20 yrs from now. Perfect example Iorn Fist #14 vs #15.

 

Certain keys could just as easily disappear as appear also. A major char or artist/creator , etc.. could easily fall out of favor or just become old fashion to the next generation of collectors.

[dolphinsrwj]

thats the one thing that i think will hurt the value of moderns nowdays is there seems not to be any new characters or villians imo that are worth anything.it seems like they are just rehashing old ideas.it would be nice to see a new villian in the ultimate spidey other than that lame geldof [!@#%^&^].next thing you know they will be having spidey face the ultimate spot or rocketracer

[buena_vista]

Wasn't it Rocketeer?

 

I have some good ones --- Ultimate Razorback, Ultimate Basilisk, Ultimate Big Wheel, Ultimate Frog-Man... the list goes on. So nice to be able to rehash other people's creations...

[mead-migration]

Also, it doesn't help the back issue market when comic companies bring out 2nd, 3rd and 4th printings of a "hot" comic book that's selling well. One that I can think of is Dreamwave's Transformers which went all the way to a 4th printing for issue 1 and a 2nd printing for issue 5 in their first series. Another thing that doesn't help the price is that it seems right after a hot story arc has just been completed a company then tries to make more of a profit by putting the story arc in a tpb. So with relation to price, it doesn't really matter much if it's a key issue nowadays because companies will just go to 2nd print and trade paperback faster than you can say trade paperback. Also, trade paperbacks are a way of comic book companies to make money without paying the writers and artists since they are only reprinting the work again. Most writers and artist do not get royalties from tpbs. Also, companies love to print alternate covers most of them don't just print one cover of a hot comic. There's the alternate cover, the Dynamic Forces edition, the American Entertainment edition, the gimmick gold, platinum, holographic edition, the signed w/coa edition, the museum sketch edition, etc. All of these factors mentioned above hurt the back issue price of standard comic books. I know that comic book companies are in it to make a profit but there's a difference in making a profit and pure greed. If they're just interested in making a profit (and some of them are) and not the story then why don't they just be honest and print in their comics that they are "Just interested in making a profit and that is why the Dynamic Forces edition has to be printed." Notice though that that important HONEST information is always left out of these special edition comic books.

[Kevin Boyd]

Multiple printings DO hurt back issue sales.

 

On the other hand, the nature of this market is that most retailers order to cover pre-sales plus X number of copies. It's a real guessing game if you do have to order, on one hand, you want to sell every copy you order, on the other you don't want to send business elsewhere by not having the book in stock. Marvel wants retailers to order more first, hence the no reprint policy. DC wants to make sure that everyone and anyone who wants to read it can as quickly as possible. Other companies tend a similar policy to DC's, including Dreamwave.

 

When your local dealer sells Transformers 1 for an inflated price to someone who wants to read it, Dreamwave has already made their cut (usually about $1 or less). The dealer makes $18 if he's sellling it for $20. Great for your dealer, it might help him pay the rent, but Dreamwave would rather make another $1 by reprinting the issue so that the guy who just wants to read it only has to pay $3 instead of $20. Ultimately, if retailers didn't order multiple printings to meet customer demand the companies wouldn't be reprinting them.

 

And Tradepaperbacks are a new market unto themselves. In some cases the printed regular issues are merely the "trailer" for the collected edition. I think of it this way... I can pay my cable fees to watch various shows BUT shortly afterwards I also have the option to buy the whole season of my favourite shows on DVD and I can watch them whenever I want. I don't have to but the DVD set and/or I don't have to have cable to watch the shows... or I can have cable and buy the DVD set. Ultimately, it's my choice as a consumer to buy the product in the format I want.

 

And TPBs are the DVD box set equivalent for monthly comics, and like TV on DVD, TPBs are the STRONGEST area of growth for comic book publishers, and the publishers ultimately make MORE money on the TPB printings in the long term than they ever did with the individual issues in the short term.

 

And yes, they tend to capitalize on hot storyarcs. That being said, they have reprinted less successful work only to see it sell better as a TPB. For example, Sentinel and Runaways have not been strong sellers for Marvel, but they should do very well in the new mini-tpb format. Books like Exiles and X-Statix are not burning up the sales charts as monthly issues, but are very well ordered and received TPBs. The TPB is so successful that companies design their monthlies to be collected as TPBs long before the individual issues come out. It's now a part of regular business practice.

 

Also, trade paperbacks are a way of comic book companies to make money without paying the writers and artists since they are only reprinting the work again. Most writers and artist do not get royalties from tpbs

 

Who told you that? Of course the creative teams get royalties every time their work gets reprinted. Even Ditko gets a royalty check every time an issue of ASM gets reprinted in a Masterwork or an Essential volume. Some work won't go back into print because the company doesn't want the creator to get their royalty money. I've had creators remark on the percentage of money they receive on a regular basis from continued reprintings of their work, in some cases it amounts to a small amount of money here and there. In some cases it's like winning the lottery if you do work for a writer like Alan Moore, whose work is constantly reprinted.

 

I know that comic book companies are in it to make a profit but there's a difference in making a profit and pure greed. If they're just interested in making a profit (and some of them are) and not the story then why don't they just be honest and print in their comics that they are "Just interested in making a profit and that is why the Dynamic Forces edition has to be printed."

 

I'm not sure if you are entirely correct about the relationship between the companies and Dynamic Forces. Sure, the DF alternate versions are pure collusion between the company and DF, and I agree with you there. But they can't be making that much money off of them, especially when most of those DF "special" editions can eventually be purchased for a fraction of their cost at conventions from DF themselves or from seller like Graham Crackers.

 

Now the signed versions of the regular editions are another matter as that is an arrangement between the creative person and DF with the companies in question turning a blind eye, or at least are minor participants in the deal. Essentially DF purchases the books from Diamond and then pays the artist or writer to sign and number the books. It's not that much different than you going to the artist and getting the book signed and then trying to sell it at an amount higher than what you paid for the book off the rack. Since the creators know that the book is being sold for a profit they are able to get paid to sign the books, which in some cases my be greed, for others it's extra money to pay the rent.

 

But ULTIMATELY it comes down to two reasons why those DF books are around in the first place (1) the buyer and (2) the retailer. DF is, ultimately, a company that sells to RETAILERS who order those books because they think they have BUYERS. DF may have a list price of $59.95 for some of those limited editions when they first solicit them, but does your local retailer actually pay that? Of course not, he pay half or less of that price and then sells it to the buyer for the full price (sometimes with a slight discount).

 

Kev

 

 

[mead-migration]

Multiple printings DO hurt back issue sales.

 

On the other hand, the nature of this market is that most retailers order to cover pre-sales plus X number of copies. It's a real guessing game if you do have to order, on one hand, you want to sell every copy you order, on the other you don't want to send business elsewhere by not having the book in stock. Marvel wants retailers to order more first, hence the no reprint policy. DC wants to make sure that everyone and anyone who wants to read it can as quickly as possible. Other companies tend a similar policy to DC's, including Dreamwave.

 

My point exactly that there are companies like Dreamwave who love to print extra copies with second, third printings,etc., thus hurting back issue sales. They also had a second print of issue 5 of their first Transformer series with a different cover saying they couldn't meet demand BUT the only problem is that demand was met in comic shops and it's just Dreamwave wanting to make more money. This information was given to me by my local comic shop owner. You could research on what happened on issue 5 of the TF series. To me that issue 5 fiasco was a scandal. Now if you could take a look at that issue as well as many of the later parts of the first series of Dreamwave Transformer comics are collecting dust in the comic shop bins. So either the comic shops ordered too much or Dreamwave decided to print too much. I think the latter is true.

 

When your local dealer sells Transformers 1 for an inflated price to someone who wants to read it, Dreamwave has already made their cut (usually about $1 or less). The dealer makes $18 if he's sellling it for $20. Great for your dealer, it might help him pay the rent, but Dreamwave would rather make another $1 by reprinting the issue so that the guy who just wants to read it only has to pay $3 instead of $20. Ultimately, if retailers didn't order multiple printings to meet customer demand the companies wouldn't be reprinting them.

 

Retailers would buy almost anything that has a popular name attached to it like Transformers. If Dreamwave decided they wanted to go to an 8th printing I'll bet you that a group of retailers would still buy it. It might not be wise but they'd still buy it. I'm saying that by Dreamwave making more copies and engaging in their reprints that it hurts the 1st prints. This whole topic is about modern comic values and my whole point is that the 1st prints are not worth what they could be if it weren't for those multipe extra reprinting copies floating around. Remeber, you said that Dreamwave has already made their cut. I don't think the reason for the reprints is more toward getting the copy into the reader's hands as it is so much as making more money. Not just more money, money at a very greedy level. You have to be very greedy to go to a 4th print which is what exactly happened. And on top of the 4th print, maybe also a trade paperback?

 

And Tradepaperbacks are a new market unto themselves. In some cases the printed regular issues are merely the "trailer" for the collected edition. I think of it this way... I can pay my cable fees to watch various shows BUT shortly afterwards I also have the option to buy the whole season of my favourite shows on DVD and I can watch them whenever I want. I don't have to but the DVD set and/or I don't have to have cable to watch the shows... or I can have cable and buy the DVD set. Ultimately, it's my choice as a consumer to buy the product in the format I want.

 

I agree with you that Trade Paperback are a new medium with extra sketches, stories and the like. And they do seem to sell well. But the fact remains that those are reprinted stories which hurt the first printed comic books which is what I'm getting at. I'm looking out for the first prints of comic books. Of course it is up to the consumer on which format to buy but my point was that it does hurt the first prints because it reprints the stories. Just imagine if there were not as many TPBs then many of the back issues would skyrocket.

 

And yes, they tend to capitalize on hot storyarcs. That being said, they have reprinted less successful work only to see it sell better as a TPB. For example, Sentinel and Runaways have not been strong sellers for Marvel, but they should do very well in the new mini-tpb format. Books like Exiles and X-Statix are not burning up the sales charts as monthly issues, but are very well ordered and received TPBs. The TPB is so successful that companies design their monthlies to be collected as TPBs long before the individual issues come out. It's now a part of regular business practice.

 

Okay so the comics of Sentinel and Runaways didn't sell so well and is doing better in a TPB. It's weird but I'll accept that. One would wonder why the fans didn't bother picking up the comic book versions when they come out. If many of these fans didn't bank on a TPB version coming out then I guarantee you much more comic book copies would've been bought thus making them rarer. But I guess companies are not that interested into the back issue worth. They're interested in reprinting and making more money. The result is that the back issues' price goes spiraling down.

 

 

Who told you that? Of course the creative teams get royalties every time their work gets reprinted. Even Ditko gets a royalty check every time an issue of ASM gets reprinted in a Masterwork or an Essential volume. Some work won't go back into print because the company doesn't want the creator to get their royalty money. I've had creators remark on the percentage of money they receive on a regular basis from continued reprintings of their work, in some cases it amounts to a small amount of money here and there. In some cases it's like winning the lottery if you do work for a writer like Alan Moore, whose work is constantly reprinted.

 

I was under the impression that writers and artists negotiate their contracts and royalties could be waved off depending on leverage and how big a star you are. An example would be an amateur or a an up and commer would wave their right to royalties for fear of not getting work.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are entirely correct about the relationship between the companies and Dynamic Forces. Sure, the DF alternate versions are pure collusion between the company and DF, and I agree with you there. But they can't be making that much money off of them, especially when most of those DF "special" editions can eventually be purchased for a fraction of their cost at conventions from DF themselves or from seller like Graham Crackers.

 

The point here is that those DF alternate editions hurt the 1st printings of the regular copies. Think of it like a domino effect. If those special editions can be had for a good price at conventions like what you stated then collectors would say,"Why should I get the regular copy for $20 if I can get a Dynamic Forces signed copy for the same price? Or even cheaper. It has an autograph." You see what I'm getting at. Those DF alternate copies just single handedly displaced the regular copy because of the autograph. And it's not only DF, there are also reprinted copies of Wizard Ace editions floating around as well as many other companies wanting to get in on the collusion. Many,many other companies.

 

Now the signed versions of the regular editions are another matter as that is an arrangement between the creative person and DF with the companies in question turning a blind eye, or at least are minor participants in the deal. Essentially DF purchases the books from Diamond and then pays the artist or writer to sign and number the books. It's not that much different than you going to the artist and getting the book signed and then trying to sell it at an amount higher than what you paid for the book off the rack. Since the creators know that the book is being sold for a profit they are able to get paid to sign the books, which in some cases my be greed, for others it's extra money to pay the rent.

 

Another example of creator greed with a possible touch of company greed as well.

 

But ULTIMATELY it comes down to two reasons why those DF books are around in the first place (1) the buyer and (2) the retailer. DF is, ultimately, a company that sells to RETAILERS who order those books because they think they have BUYERS. DF may have a list price of $59.95 for some of those limited editions when they first solicit them, but does your local retailer actually pay that? Of course not, he pay half or less of that price and then sells it to the buyer for the full price (sometimes with a slight discount).

 

Kev

 

 

Like I said earlier near the top of this post, retailers would buy anything with a popular name to it. It's one of the reasons that many of them went belly up in the mid-90s trying to order a lot of junk thinking it will all sell through. This topic is about the modern values worth. Remeber I'm looking out for the 1st printed comic. I'm not looking out for the comic book company to double or triple their profits by reprinting. I'm also not looking out for the retailer who goes and buys DF editions an any other signed alternate copies that they can get their hands on. I'm looking out for the regular comic's worth and the fact remains that the back issue worth of the regular editions are going down because of all of these reprints.

 

Tanord

[Kevin Boyd]

Listen, I agree with you that multiple printings do hurt back issue sales.

 

But I'm sorry, I cannot agree that it is entirely the fault of the companies. If retailers are stupid enough to order later reprintings of books without knowing that they have customers for those books then they deserve everything that they get.

 

I'm not a retailer myself, but I know enough of them to know that you order based on what you think you can sell. If I still have third printings of Transformers #1 on the shelf then I have no interest in ordering 5th printing copies to sell. However if I have completely sold out of all the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th printing copies and there are customers who are still asking for the book then I would order the 5th printing copies.

 

Ditto for DF comics. I don't like them, and as a customer I don't order them. As a retailer I wouldn't order them unless I had customers who wanted them.

 

You talk of greed as if there's some great conspiracy to rip customers off by making them buy every printing of a book, and while I agree that was a sales tactic of the early 1990's most consumers woke up to this and stopped buying them. While I'm sure that there may still be a small portion of the audience that still buys every version of a specific book, I have a hard time believing that this is anything more than a chicken or the egg scenario. If there weren't buyers there wouldn't be multiple versions, and there wouldn't be multiple versions if there weren't buyers.

 

And truly "in demand" books are not hurt by multiple reprintings. Take Ultimate Spider-Man 1 for instance, there's a book that has been reprinted in multiple formats on many occasions and still retains it's value and interest.

 

A book like Transformers declined in value, not due to multiple reprintings, but due to the fact that it sucked. It sold merely on the phantom power of the name and concept being at the crest of a wave of nostalgia. Once people actually started to see past the hype and look at the content they saw just how lacking it was and stopped purchasing.

 

As with all items in our consumer society, the new issue market is all about supply and demand. Companies want to make sure there is enough supply to meet consumer demand, as they want the product out there to ensure that there will be higher numbers on subsequent issues. Retailers are in the same boat and thus are willing to order subsequent printings to meet consumer demand.

 

On the flip side, dealers and collectors would prefer to see there be a smaller supply to create demand. As a larger audience on subsequent issues means there first issues are worth more.

 

As a reader first, and a collector second, I would much rather see as much comic product out there as possible to ensure that people don't walk away annoyed that they can't read these high profile, in demand comics. I don't want joe smith walking in off the street to buy the latest New X-Men only to be told that the store is sold out but they owner just might happen to a have an extra copy that he'll sell for $10 or $20.

 

If I were a retailer, I would much rather be able to say to a customer who wants to read the Origin story that they have the choice of buying the Origin TPB is on the shelf for $20 or they can buy the original issues, with the first few issues selling for more than cover price. I would rather offer them the choice - read or collect.

 

I don't want to see a market where all readers are forced to be collectors. Or all collectors aren't able to read these stories because they don't want to damage their first print copies.

 

I think we are in a nice medium spot right now. As with any other consumer market, we have one based on choice. You can buy the material how you want, when you want.

 

As for reprint rights for creators, the major companies have very standard contracts for all employees based on sales incentives and bonuses and reprint rights. While there is still a company control over the rights to use characters you create for the company, the actual creative work is rewarded with royalties if the art or story is reprinted in another format.

 

Some of the big name talent can negotiate for a bigger piece of the pie, but creative teams are reimbursed for later reprintings of their work. The work done in the late 1970's and the 1980's by creators like Neal Adams ensured that older creators (examples being Siegel & Schuster, Jack Kirby, etc.) received royalty rights every time their work was reprinted, even if the company didn't have such a policy in place at the time that the work was commissioned.

 

Next time you meet a comic creator I suggest you ask them about it.

 

Kev

[mead-migration]

I agree it's not entirely the fault of companies. Retailers and collectors, speculators should take up their share of the blame as well. But you spoke of a person's choice of buying what they want and people ordering what they want. There is a step before that. It is the comic book company that determines what to publish. They may or may not listen to the fans but ultimately they decide what they want to do if they want to go to multiple printings. They make the decision to give people that choice of ordering a comic or a tpb.

 

Retailers order out of what they think will sell. But another reason retailers order books is out of fear. Fear of being the one that missed out on a certain hot book or a book with a special cover. That is why they try to be as diverse as possible because it is as you stated, a guessing game. They don't know if that Wizard Ace Edition will skyrocket in price. They don't need the extra copies its just that they don't want to pass on something that could potentially be hot.

 

As for the transformers example my local comic shop owner has the first print, 2nd print, 3rd print, and 4th print in stock. When the 4th print came out he put it next to the 1st,2nd,and 3rd prints on the comic rack. And it wasn't moving. You see he didn't run out of the 1st,2nd, and 3rd prints--he still had them but he ordered the 4th print as well. Why did he do that? I'm thinking he did that out of fear. There was a chance that that 4th print run was going to be so small that it actually might be a collectible. Also it had a new cover never seen before. It wasn't likely, but there was that chance. So he ordered it and I know now he regrets it. And he isn't the only one that did this. As this is all happening the 1st prints value started to go down. Multiple prints take the heat out of the 1st prints as we agreed upon. An example is the Batman 612 copy. There are reports that Batman 612 2nd print is worth more than the first print because of the black and white cover. This stuff repeats with the special edition comics ex: DF, Wizard Ace. They take the heat off of the first prints.

 

You stated that there isn't a great conspiracy to rip customers off but I tend to disagree. I think that there is a conspiracy of collusion. You see when these companies make these deals to have a DF edition or a Wizard Ace Edition, that means more media coverage. Don't you think it's fishy that Wizard being the guide to comics with a price guide also takes part in making thier own comics as well? And you can bet they hyped their own Wizard Ace Editions with pictures and more coverage in their magazines. I've even seen them raise the price of Wizard Ace Edition comics in the guide and didn't see it reflect in my region. And there are several discussions about the Ace Editions in comic book forums about Wizard hyping up their own brand comics. So I know that it wasn't just in my region. A lot of people laugh about Wizard's prices and I'm sure you've heard about what people say about Wizard.

 

Also, comic book companies know that if they make a deal with Wizard than they will get more coverage,advertising,etc. This is behind the doors stuff not to be discussed in the open.

 

Ultimate Spider-man is an exception. What we have here is one of the best if not the best writers on comic books and one of the best artists that ever drew Spider-man coupled with one of the best characters in comics ever. It's a no brainer that this combination would sell. Unfortunately this type of superstar creative team is not the norm, it is the exception.

 

I actually thought the first series of Transformers had a story with great art. The decline of the story started in the middle of the second series and to me, Armada sucked. To me that was the start of the decline of the comic storywise, but the decline of the price in the back issue market started way before that.

 

I am a collector first then a reader and finally a fan. I guess you could understand our difference of opinion. To me the skyrocket price of a hot back issue comic with a great story is in a way giving respect to the comic. Think of it like a job well done. Another form of respect is people taking good care of the hot comics by putting in a backing board and some of them even put them in a plastic case. People will be talking about that hot comic and its price, short print run in comic shops, coffee shops, etc. The early birds who got a chance to get this comic first should be rewarded with a respectable back issue price. Not a company who says, "lets reprint this again, and again, and again, etc. "

 

You can have both readers and collectors in this market. But there needs to be a balance. Right now it is an unfair balance of companies trying to squeeze out every drop of milk by reprinting again,etc.

 

I really have no problems with trade paperbacks. If a comic is scorching hot and the only way to read the comic is to fork over hundreds of dollars then I wholeheartlily agree that there should be a trade as an alternative. But there is a question of timing of the trade paperback. The comic doesn't have enough time to reach a high enough level because the trade comes out right after the miniseries is completed. So what we're stuck with is a comic that doesn't have that much room to grow in price because the trade is available. That's why a lot of supposedly "hot" comics fall faster in price nowadays than ever before.

 

I agree that superstar talent can have the leverage to get a bigger piece of the pie. But that was only a small part of my argument and it was blown out of proportion. My main point was stated an the end of my earlier post. Let's not get off topic.

 

Tanord

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

There is a step before that. It is the comic book company that determines what to publish. They may or may not listen to the fans but ultimately they decide what they want to do if they want to go to multiple printings. They make the decision to give people that choice of ordering a comic or a tpb.

 

Other than the goal of putting out a tpb I disagree. The company decides to do multiple printings AFTER the initial sales on the previous printing come in. Company X does not sit down and say we will do five printings of #1 BEFORE the sell-thru figures for the first issue comes out.

 

Retailers order out of what they think will sell. But another reason retailers order books is out of fear. Fear of being the one that missed out on a certain hot book or a book with a special cover. That is why they try to be as diverse as possible because it is as you stated, a guessing game. They don't know if that Wizard Ace Edition will skyrocket in price. They don't need the extra copies its just that they don't want to pass on something that could potentially be hot.

 

Fear? I haven't met a retailer yet who orders out of fear. Maybe they are in the wrong business if they don't know what their customer base is looking for. If a retailer is ordering based on what they believe will skyrocket in price then they are in the wrong business, in my opinion.

 

As for the transformers example my local comic shop owner has the first print, 2nd print, 3rd print, and 4th print in stock. When the 4th print came out he put it next to the 1st,2nd,and 3rd prints on the comic rack. And it wasn't moving. You see he didn't run out of the 1st,2nd, and 3rd prints--he still had them but he ordered the 4th print as well. Why did he do that? I'm thinking he did that out of fear. There was a chance that that 4th print run was going to be so small that it actually might be a collectible. Also it had a new cover never seen before. It wasn't likely, but there was that chance. So he ordered it and I know now he regrets it. And he isn't the only one that did this. As this is all happening the 1st prints value started to go down. Multiple prints take the heat out of the 1st prints as we agreed upon. An example is the Batman 612 copy. There are reports that Batman 612 2nd print is worth more than the first print because of the black and white cover. This stuff repeats with the special edition comics ex: DF, Wizard Ace. They take the heat off of the first prints.

 

You're guessing. Sounds like he ordered not out of fear but by speculation, and he deserved to get burned, sorry. With the Batman 612 example, Batman 612 had already sold thru in most locations, and not as many retailers ordered the second print because they were unaware of the new cover. As a result, the completists went nuts trying to get the second print for the new cover.

 

You stated that there isn't a great conspiracy to rip customers off but I tend to disagree. I think that there is a conspiracy of collusion. You see when these companies make these deals to have a DF edition or a Wizard Ace Edition, that means more media coverage. Don't you think it's fishy that Wizard being the guide to comics with a price guide also takes part in making thier own comics as well? And you can bet they hyped their own Wizard Ace Editions with pictures and more coverage in their magazines. I've even seen them raise the price of Wizard Ace Edition comics in the guide and didn't see it reflect in my region. And there are several discussions about the Ace Editions in comic book forums about Wizard hyping up their own brand comics. So I know that it wasn't just in my region. A lot of people laugh about Wizard's prices and I'm sure you've heard about what people say about Wizard.

 

Let's agree to disagree. I've never used Wizard magazine as a price guide, so I have no use for that aspect. Anyone who seriously contemplates the purchase of manufactured collectibles like Wizard Ace Editions and DF limited editions is speculating. Those books aren't designed for the reader/collector, but for the speculator/collector.

 

I am a collector first then a reader and finally a fan. I guess you could understand our difference of opinion. To me the skyrocket price of a hot back issue comic with a great story is in a way giving respect to the comic. Think of it like a job well done. Another form of respect is people taking good care of the hot comics by putting in a backing board and some of them even put them in a plastic case. People will be talking about that hot comic and its price, short print run in comic shops, coffee shops, etc. The early birds who got a chance to get this comic first should be rewarded with a respectable back issue price. Not a company who says, "lets reprint this again, and again, and again, etc. "

 

Well, then you are perpetually setting yourself up for disappointment by placing the emphasis on collecting over content. Respecting your comics is a given, but for me, comics are meant to be read and enjoyed FIRST, and anything that comes out of that - such as increases in value is a bonus. You would be better off collecting OLDER books, where there is a higher collectibilty factor than speculating on new books in the hope that they will go up in value.

 

Comics are a published medium, and like any other printed medium the publisher has a right to meet consumer demand instead of trying to reward a small group of people who get to the shop first thing on Wednesday morning. When a book comes out in paperback and sells out, does the publisher say "too bad for anyone else that wants to read it", NO they go back to press to fill orders from bookstores and make more moeny.

 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that companies actually care about the collectibility of their books and want to reward the collectors first. Companies care about selling as many copies to as many people who want to read it. A BIGGER reward to any comic is to say that there was such consumer demand for the book (a recent example would be Teen Titans #1) that we had to go thru multiple printings.

 

You can have both readers and collectors in this market. But there needs to be a balance. Right now it is an unfair balance of companies trying to squeeze out every drop of milk by reprinting again,etc.

 

Actually the industry, like every other industry, wants CONSUMERS. It doesn't matter if they define themselves as readers or collectors or fans, etc.

 

Comic book companies want buyers, they exist to make money. To buy new issues with the hope that they will go up in value is only setting yourself up for disappointment. To believe that the companies somehow owe it to you or I to create "collectibles" is ultimately flawed and is what has led to the creation of Dynamic Forces and Wizard in the marketplace.

 

Kev