Clairifcation on printing history for Marvel price variants

[comicwiz]

I've worked along with a few publishers in the past 7+ years to record as much information on Underground Comix, prices, valuations, trends, and distinguishing between variations in printing. During this time, I have been able to come to some form of definitiion for "first", "second" and later printings. These are some of the major reasons why a book goes back to press:

 

i) typo/graphical errors

ii) manufactured flaws or defects

iii) censorship

iv) less than satisfactory results achieved with first print run

v) and the last, during the heyday of the 90's, demand far surpassing availability, forcing publishers to go back to press to satisfy commercial pursuits.

 

With the exception of the fifth reason, the previous four reasons all fall under the category of changes or modifications to the publication. In the Underground Comix market, first printing comics are considered the holy grails, and often command otherwordly premiums because of lower than normal print runs. Second or later printings still have a large following, and are still regarded as "low-print" comix compared to mainstream production and distribution numbers, but are generally not as valuable. For anyone who still stuck on this concept, think back to the Dark Knight Returns limited series (1-4), where the first few books went into second and higher printings. Generally, its the first print DK 1's that still command the highest premiums.

 

Taking this research and information into the realm of mainstream comics, and the Marvel price variants, I have always wondered about the process used to produce these books. My guess is that the books were originally pressed with standard, across-the-board pricing. For their test-base, pilot projects to randomly sample the increase in prices, the books were run a second time with a different price plate.

 

Here is my question to all the variant experts:

 

i) Were the price variants run as a seperate pressing from the standard price versions, and did the presses run concurrently with one another? Or were the price variants run at a later time?

 

My assumption is that the same presses were used to run both versions, but the price variants were run as a second printing at a later date (probably with the passing of a day, week, or month -- not 100% sure about this). It is also POSSIBLE (but probably not very likely) that the variants were published with a blank box, and were later run a second time with a special "test-base" price plate and corresponding price (ie. 30 or 35 cent). Either way, if my assumption holds true, then in theory, all Marvel price variants are actually second printings.

 

So I turn it over to the variant experts: as someone with a graphic design background, an aspiring printer, and in the hopes of creating a post with a common point of interest for all collectors (not just the price variant collectors -- or should I say hoarders ), I'd appreciate any insights or expert opinions to confirm or deny the statements made in this post. Thanks.

[Aman619]

heres a quick answer. generally in all printing and packaging, when the client wants different prices, info, type copyright info etc, they create a black plate change. That is, printing film being expensive historically, they reuse the cyan magenta and yellow plates and just create alternate black plates for the black ink that contains the variant info. This way they minimize down time on press and the work entailed to produce the variants pressings. AND... it also gives them the flexibility in certain cases to finish the entire print run with the price area blank, allowing the finished pieces to be poverprinted later with locally perhaps with the specific info necessary.

 

So for comics, at the end of the normal run, they stop the presses, replace the black plate and then continue with the rest of the covers.

[joe_collector]

So for comics, at the end of the normal run, they stop the presses, replace the black plate and then continue with the rest of the covers.

 

That's similar to what Donut posted awhile back, and that the 35-cent plate they used was an old one from the Giant-Size days.

[Aman619]

remember that if the 35 cent graphic was picked up from previous usage, you really mean that a stat of the price was pasted onto the cover mechanical, creating an alternate that was then shot and used as the alternate black plate. All th coloring would be identical in both covers.

[joe_collector]

remember that if the 35 cent graphic was picked up from previous usage, you really mean that a stat of the price was pasted onto the cover mechanical,

 

Whatever method they used, it was pretty much hack-work, as many covers have seriously offset and/or slanted 35-cent prices.

[Aman619]

the printer may have stripped them in at teh plant, too.

but the Marvel Bullpen was always "hack' work...not a real home for perfection, actually, the whole business was always schlock-driven....never a high class industry wih high standards...

[comicwiz]

heres a quick answer. generally in all printing and packaging, when the client wants different prices, info, type copyright info etc, they create a black plate change. That is, printing film being expensive historically, they reuse the cyan magenta and yellow plates and just create alternate black plates for the black ink that contains the variant info. This way they minimize down time on press and the work entailed to produce the variants pressings. AND... it also gives them the flexibility in certain cases to finish the entire print run with the price area blank, allowing the finished pieces to be poverprinted later with locally perhaps with the specific info necessary.

 

So for comics, at the end of the normal run, they stop the presses, replace the black plate and then continue with the rest of the covers.

 

So they created two black plates for, lets say the Star Wars 1, or just alternative price fittings for the black plates?

 

Did they stop the presses, with say 1500 comics to go, and replace the plate/fitting with the variant price plate? Or did they run the job twice, with 1500 or so books with a blank area where the cover price is affixed, and the 35 cent price plate at a later time? If I understood your reply correctly, they would run the job once. But wouldn't the press need to be stopped in order for a plate/fitting switch? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I do want to understand this clearly to base my own determinations.

 

On a Zap Comix 1, the only distinguishing feature between a first (25 cents) and second print (35 cents) is the cover price, and the information attributing the printer (Charles Plymell for the first, and Don Donahue for the second). The passage of time was signifcant, but it is just a plate change for the front cover price, and the printers name on the rear cover. And yet, each book is rightfully considered a first and second print. It sounds to me like there are some similarities between Zap Comix 1, and Marvel variants like Star Wars 1, but only the Zap Comix correctly identifies the print. The Marvels are simply called "variants."

[joe_collector]

Did they stop the presses, with say 1500 comics to go, and replace the plate/fitting with the variant price plate?

 

Unless they wanted to burn money, and not hit the shipping dates (variant and non-variant copies shipped simultaneously to areas), then that would be the logical course of action.

[comicwiz]

Unless they wanted to burn money, and not hit the shipping dates (variant and non-variant copies shipped simultaneously to areas), then that would be the logical course of action.

 

That is my thinking as well.

 

The alternate plate/fitting for the price variant seems the most logical method. Still keeping with the Star Wars 1 example, here is how I interpret the print runs. The first pressing is the standard 30 cent price. The second print run using the alternate price (35 cent) variant plate/fitting. An example of a third printing would be a Whitman pressing, where you can clearly identify with the diamond box shaped price box. Again, any variation or modification should, IMO, represent its own unique printing, and should be chronicled/documented as such. This is usually quite consistent with printed publications, and it appears to have either been lost or improprely identified with the Marvel price variants.

[underthebigw]

My take on this subject is pretty much this--they are variations on the same print run. Do not under-emphasize JC's point above: in order for them to function as market research, they needed to be printed, shipped, distributed, and sold at the same time as the normally priced versions. While not a printer, how can one small change made in themidst of a print run, turn the run into 2 runs? In my mind, same run with a variation. This is dramatically different from the underground books you mentioned--significant time lapses between printings, often different printers, different prices, and (if I remember correctly) often different paper qualities as well. Functionally, the Marvels were the same run, while the undergrounds were clearly not.

[DiceX]

I can answer this one.

 

Typical price changes, such as the old Marvel price variants, would be an extra black plate.

They would put a piece of tape over the original price and burn in the alternate price onto a new black plate. (yes, more often than not, it was a hack job)

So say out of a press run of 500,000 books, they would run 450,000 with the regular price and shut down the press to change the black plate to run the 50,000 book balance.

So this would not be a "reprint", as the 500,000 copies of the body pages were covered with the 450,000 regulars and 50,000 variant covers.

This is simply a "variant" run. It's still done all the time on numerous books and magazines.

The most common today would be "newsstand" and "direct" versions. They are all the same run with a black UPC code change.

Some magazines are run with 3 to 5 different versions in a single printing. (newsstand, subscriber, UK, Canadian, etc.)

 

A "second printing" or "reprint" is just that.

After a job is dead from press...(a day, week, month, whatever) the publisher requests an additional number of copies to be printed for whatever reason.

This trip back to press would be called a reprint.

 

There is a fine line between the two from time to time.

Example...The "Nude Electra" alternate.

The publisher called announcing the change after all the books had been printed and were being bound.

The body pages were tossed and reprinted with the new version of the page.

These reprinted body pages were then bound using the remaining original "x" number of covers that had already been printed.

This would technically be neither a reprint nor a variant, as the books were never meant to be releasedd that way. Some of the original books that had already been bound were used to fill the order or were stolen from the plant, and the result is an alternate version of the book.

[shadroch]

Did they stop the presses, with say 1500 comics to go, and replace the plate/fitting with the variant price plate?

 

Unless they wanted to burn money, and not hit the shipping dates (variant and non-variant copies shipped simultaneously to areas), then that would be the logical course of action.

 

Although the practice of applying date stamps was dying by then,I don't believe it was totally dead.While I'm pretty sure these books shipped all on the same day,has anyone ever compared date stamps on a couple of variants to confirm this is the case?

[joe_collector]

Example...The "Nude Electra" alternate.

The publisher called announcing the change after all the books had been printed and were being bound.

The body pages were tossed and reprinted with the new version of the page.

These reprinted body pages were then bound using the remaining original "x" number of covers that had already been printed.

This would technically be neither a reprint nor a variant, as the books were never meant to be releasedd that way. Some of the original books that had already been bound were used to fill the order or were stolen from the plant, and the result is an alternate version of the book.

 

Just an FYI that Marvel released these "Nude Editions" at a price premium, to a select group of dealers.

 

It was not theft, but a conscious decision to create a variant edition and make some extra cash. Call it an experiment if you will, and some have proposed it was a plan all along to boost Elektra's visibility in the marketplace and reward some longtime retailers.

[comicwiz]

While not a printer, how can one small change made in themidst of a print run, turn the run into 2 runs? In my mind, same run with a variation. This is dramatically different from the underground books you mentioned--significant time lapses between printings, often different printers, different prices, and (if I remember correctly) often different paper qualities as well.

 

I guess in response to your question, it does depend on the discretion of the printer and publisher to chronicle/document the run. Ironic that the independent publishers were adhering to conventional printing practices, while the mainstream didn't, especially in the case of the Marvel variants.

 

I want to emphasize that although economy of scale and best business practices may have endorsed print runs that were coordinated with distribution timelines, that in the case of variants, "test-runs" logistics may have been coordinated in a slightly different manner. My comments were not meant to appear insistent on this, but my point is that there is still a high degree of uncertainty as to the amount of time between each print run, and how long after the books were distributed to sample audiences in specific states. My thinking is that the logistics in coordinating the two different projects required their own uniques set of logistics, and with it significant time lapses UNTIL Marvel began testing price variants, and these "test" jobs became modus operandi.

 

The main reasons for my thinking is the "hack" job, as referred in this post already of the price variance in the price box, and the other that it wasn't until many years after Star Wars 1 was publsihed, that a collector noticed he owned a 35 cent variant. After writing the letter to Marvel HQ, Marvel too realized the difference, and we would come to the understanding that a number of price variants were published to test the idea of a price increase. I am not 100% sure what year this happened, but I just checked the OS guide for 1982, and mention is made for the Star Wars 1 variant, but I did check other price variant issues, and they WERE NOT mentioned.

 

As idealistic as it may appear to some, the one thing that I have noticed in comparison to the research underdtakings of Jay Kennedy (Underground Comic Price Guide), and Bob Overstreet is that Jay worked closely with publishers and printers to get exact print numbers. In doing so, his research reflected the printing practices and idiosyncracies of the publishers of the respective comic and titles. The result is a guide with incredible depth, and information which is still useful today. Overstreet probably still has aligned its own research with the knowledge of independent researchers such as this online variant resource. I am also certain that a great many books were added to this variant table, and will continue to be added as more time passes, and other anomalies are noted, and found to accurately mark the amount of price variants which were ACTUALLY produced. As well, Kennedy's was the kind of research undertaking that could not be replicated because the information was gathered at a time when not only paper files were used for the research, but the practices and methods were still fresh in the minds of the printers and publishers who were interviewed for their expertise and knowledge.

 

I'm certain that with the passage of time, information gets shuffled around, and chronology becomes a practice of second guessing. And yet, are we to believe the printers who were involved with these Marvel variant test runs did not document their practices, nor were they chronicled in any manner in the OS guide?? Rather, it would rest upon one person, and a band of collectors (some found in this very forum) in the comic community to help raise awareness around the variations in printing.

 

There are plenty of examples of underground comics where they made only slight alterations to the cover price, and yet, the publishers and printers seemed to adhere to the practice of naming it a later printing. Even the underground publshers knew enough to order materials to over-satisfy print numbers because they were well aware that the quality on the assembly line would depend heavily on how intoxicated or high the person who worked on the line was that day. Materials were on-hand and budgeted for a certain ratio of waste and quality control.

 

In the example of Snatch Comics 1, the printer Don Donahue, and the artist S. Clay Wilson were not satisfied with the results which were achieved with the first 300 or so copies that came of the press. One minor adjustment was made to a two-page splash which didn't line up properly when it was folded, so the two-page splash was broken-up into two cells, and the book continued to print. With that minor modification (which I'm sure was performed within the same hour that they saw the first few books come off the line) Don still had the presence of mind to name the variation a "second" print. You would not be able to distinguish the difference unless you knew of the modification which was conveniently mentioned in the Underground Comics Guide.

 

In the case of Undergrounds, "first" print runs, as they are in many examples of printed literature, constituted a lower print-run. The "second" print runs were consistently higher in numbers. In the case of the Marvel variants, we had a different situation because the "second" print runs, which I consider the price variant issues, constituted a fraction of the entire print run. How many were printed, and the absence of any documentation as the practices and methods used during the printing will lead to further speculation in the future. It is my belief that in the case of the Marvel price variants, they constitute the only example in printed literature whereby a "second" print run, which is normally dictated by over-demand, and supply to satisfy a specific consumer base, was actually run for a different set of purposes. The mere fact that they were produced in very low numbers will always attract the "limited" aspect within the comic commuinty, however, it is IMO that this should not come in the way of uncovering certain realities about these test runs. And those may be that price variants form one of the few exceptions in printed media where a second print runs command a higher premiums, and a higher demand than "first" print runs.

[comicwiz]

I can answer this one.

 

Typical price changes, such as the old Marvel price variants, would be an extra black plate.

They would put a piece of tape over the original price and burn in the alternate price onto a new black plate. (yes, more often than not, it was a hack job)

So say out of a press run of 500,000 books, they would run 450,000 with the regular price and shut down the press to change the black plate to run the 50,000 book balance.

So this would not be a "reprint", as the 500,000 copies of the body pages were covered with the 450,000 regulars and 50,000 variant covers.

This is simply a "variant" run. It's still done all the time on numerous books and magazines.

The most common today would be "newsstand" and "direct" versions. They are all the same run with a black UPC code change.

Some magazines are run with 3 to 5 different versions in a single printing. (newsstand, subscriber, UK, Canadian, etc.)

 

A "second printing" or "reprint" is just that.

After a job is dead from press...(a day, week, month, whatever) the publisher requests an additional number of copies to be printed for whatever reason.

This trip back to press would be called a reprint.

 

There is a fine line between the two from time to time.

Example...The "Nude Electra" alternate.

The publisher called announcing the change after all the books had been printed and were being bound.

The body pages were tossed and reprinted with the new version of the page.

These reprinted body pages were then bound using the remaining original "x" number of covers that had already been printed.

This would technically be neither a reprint nor a variant, as the books were never meant to be releasedd that way. Some of the original books that had already been bound were used to fill the order or were stolen from the plant, and the result is an alternate version of the book.

 

Good info DiceX.

 

I'll elaborate quickly on a couple of final points before opening up this topic for debate. My earlier posts went through and identified how it is that the Marvel price variants ought to be considered a second print. Granted that not everyone might agree with my arguments, my contention was merely a way to develop the notion that standardized printing practices MUST have been applied to the Marvel price variants. In fact, it is IMO that a benchmark was applied at some point for printing the Marvel price variants. Inextricably linked within this notion is that printers notes had to have existed at one time or another. Whether that information was lost or misplaced due to management shuffling, or reorganization, it is because of several indicators that I believe that such reporting was made, and that printers notes properly logged the amount of variants which were produced. The first indicator is the number "1500" which represents the number of issues which were produced for the Star Wars 1 35-cent price variant. Did Overstreet pull this number out of the thin air, or did Marvel actually locate printers notes on the run at the time the inquiry was made on the 35 cent variant in the form of written letter?

 

The other thing that comes to mind is the "test-base" pricing strategy Marvel used. Marvel had the presence of mind to randomly sample a targeted area/city/state (ie. Vancouver, Texas, etc.) by releasing a number of issues with the price increase. The impetus was to determine whether the consumer would tolerate the price increase, and whether implementing the price increase would effect Marvel's bottom line. Any strategy to sample a target audience has to start with a base number -- a variable -- upon which to quantify or apply a formula to justify whether the price increase should occcur or not. This means that Marvel had to start with a specified number of comics to properly carry out its testing. Does it seem sensible to believe that Marvel perfomed these "test-base" price samplings with no idea how many books were produced, or which issues to sample under such a strategy?

 

Which brings me to the closing of this commentary/theory. It is my belief that printing standards controlling the amount of books produced with both the standard price, and price increased variants did exist. Where this information now lies is open to debate. The underpinning of such a theory is that in order to control the amount of variants produced, seperate print runs would be the most logical way to establish the amount of books to produce, and would essentially serve as the best way to control the amount of books to be manufactured for testing. The absence of this information has contributed to a variant commodity market which is governed by suggestion and misinformation. This is the same hype and propaganda which continues to misinform and misguide a large number of underground comix collectors. Granted, the Underground Price Guide serves as an indespensible resource for collectors to make informed choices, but the guide too has been out of print for over 20 years, and many are not even aware one exists. The trend in the Marvel variants market is one that is driven by low supply, and increasing demand each year. Exorbitant premiums are dictating a market whereby collectors are basing their spending on "suggested" and NOT ACTUAL production numbers. Perhaps printers notes indicating the actual numbers could serve as a reference point to consider a more comprehensive valuation system for ALL Marvel price variants.

[comicwiz]

Although the practice of applying date stamps was dying by then,I don't believe it was totally dead.While I'm pretty sure these books shipped all on the same day,has anyone ever compared date stamps on a couple of variants to confirm this is the case?

 

Good point shadroch.

 

It is another contention of mine that this information DID exist at one time, and constituted part of the information that could be found in the printers notes.

[DiceX]

Interesting. And I'm on my way out to dinner so I'll read more in depth when I return.

 

But I'll give you something to chew on while I chew on dinner.

I'm speaking only about price variants. I have no insite to the Indies.

The books were produced all in one printing. It's not hard to produce two (or even 300) versions of a book without a second print. It's common practice.

 

Not to mention the fact that there's a 90% chance that the variant prices were produced FIRST in the print run. I guess that would make the real cover price the second print?

(I can confirm this when I return home in 8 days.)

The smaller run is usually what starts up to be able to ship the variant on the same date as the bulk of the main version. The last few trucks out of the plant are usually the balance of the largest print version.

 

I'll post more when I get back tonight.

[comicwiz]

Not to mention the fact that there's a 90% chance that the variant prices were produced FIRST in the print run. I guess that would make the real cover price the second print?

 

..........I'll post more when I get back tonight.

[comicwiz]

Not to mention the fact that there's a 90% chance that the variant prices were produced FIRST in the print run. I guess that would make the real cover price the second print?

 

This seller seems to have made up his mind on the matter!