Should Carl Burgos get some credit for the FF?

[Unca Ben]

For example: if Jack Kirby gets credit for co-creating Iron Man, along with Lee and Heck, because Kirby did the cover to TOS #39 and designed the look for the Iron Man armor; then should Carl Burgos get credit for co-creating the Fantastic Four along with Kirby and Lee? I mean the look and design (and name) of the Human Torch was all Burgos. I know the silver-age version was a different entity, so to speak, but the concept character was from Carl Burgos. Other than being a human teenager, the silver-age Human Torch was pretty much a replica of the Golden age version. It's not like the Human Torch was Lee and Kirby's idea. In these days of giving credit where credit is due, maybe Carl deserves some partial recognition for Marvel’s flagship comic book.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mr. Burgos and Bill Everett since they were with Marvel since the beginning.

 

[Mr.Diggler]

[Unca Ben]

Really, this is an honest question and I'm interested in other opinions. My perspective may be completely wrong on this, I dunno.

At least this is a thread on actual comic book content, not NOD, pressing, or Danny. It's supposed to be fun!!!!

[VK]

The story of Carl Burgos is a sad one, indeed. He filed a lawsuit against Stan Lee over the rights to The Human Torch, back in the mid-60's....and lost. His daughter has told the story of her Dad being so mad about it that he BURNED all of his Human Torch original art. How much got 'torched'? Who really knows? Anyway, Uncle Stan, being the nice guy he is to the people who worked for him (at the time), rubbed salt in the wound by having the original HT fight the FF's HT in FF Annual #4 (1966). And so it goes.

 

This story is related from an article I read in an issue of Overstreet's Comic Book Markerplace.

[Unca Ben]

The story of Carl Burgos is a sad one, indeed. He filed a lawsuit against Stan Lee over the rights to The Human Torch, back in the mid-60's....and lost. His daughter has told the story of her Dad being so mad about it that he BURNED all of his Human Torch original art. How much got 'torched'? Who really knows? Anyway, Uncle Stan, being the nice guy he is to the people who worked for him (at the time), rubbed salt in the wound by having the original HT fight the FF's HT in FF Annual #4 (1966). And so it goes.

 

This story is related from an article I read in an issue of Overstreet's Comic Book Markerplace.

WOW. Thanks VK. I didn't know about the lawsuit. I appreciate the response, this is why I posted to begin with.

[VintageComics]

The story of Carl Burgos is a sad one, indeed. He filed a lawsuit against Stan Lee over the rights to The Human Torch, back in the mid-60's....and lost. His daughter has told the story of her Dad being so mad about it that he BURNED all of his Human Torch original art. How much got 'torched'? Who really knows? Anyway, Uncle Stan, being the nice guy he is to the people who worked for him (at the time), rubbed salt in the wound by having the original HT fight the FF's HT in FF Annual #4 (1966). And so it goes.

 

This story is related from an article I read in an issue of Overstreet's Comic Book Markerplace.

WOW. Thanks VK. I didn't know about the lawsuit. I appreciate the response, this is why I posted to begin with.

 

I was going to joke abot Stan Lee being there in the late 30's creating him but this is no laughing matter.

 

If DC could take Captain Marvel off the stands over a law suit with Fawcett, and CM bore no resemblance to Superman then this is a disgrace that Burgos did not get his credit when credit was due.

 

Stan the Man Lee built an empire but he was ruthless and egotistical it seems.

 

I still maintain that Kirby was just as much a driving force in Marvel as Stan was.

 

R.

[BillBreck]

For example: if Jack Kirby gets credit for co-creating Iron Man, along with Lee and Heck, because Kirby did the cover to TOS #39 and designed the look for the Iron Man armor; then should Carl Burgos get credit for co-creating the Fantastic Four along with Kirby and Lee? I mean the look and design (and name) of the Human Torch was all Burgos. I know the silver-age version was a different entity, so to speak, but the concept character was from Carl Burgos. Other than being a human teenager, the silver-age Human Torch was pretty much a replica of the Golden age version. It's not like the Human Torch was Lee and Kirby's idea. In these days of giving credit where credit is due, maybe Carl deserves some partial recognition for Marvel’s flagship comic book.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mr. Burgos and Bill Everett since they were with Marvel since the beginning.

 

I agree. In fact I think that most of the early Timely/Marvel artists deserve a lot more credit than they get.

 

Burgos, Everett, Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Ayers, etc. have all made contributions to the Marvel universe. It's pretty sad that people seem to think that Stan invented the whole thing all by himself.

[Senormac]

Well then Jack Cole should get some, most of, or ALL the credit for Mr. Fantastic and his abilities. At least The HT was the same company (Timely/Marvel).....whereas Plastic Man was a Quality Comics book.

 

Wonder what year DC aquired the rights to the Quality heros? I know BlackHawk also became a DC book.

[Unca Ben]

By the way Mr. Diggler, I love the photo of the babe in your signature. Just awesome, who is she? She reminds me of Lauren Bacall when she co-starred with Bogey in To Have and Have Not. My all-time favorite sexy actress. "You know how to whistle, don't you?.... "

[TheShadowKnows]

The story of Carl Burgos is a sad one, indeed. He filed a lawsuit against Stan Lee over the rights to The Human Torch, back in the mid-60's....and lost. His daughter has told the story of her Dad being so mad about it that he BURNED all of his Human Torch original art. How much got 'torched'? Who really knows? Anyway, Uncle Stan, being the nice guy he is to the people who worked for him (at the time), rubbed salt in the wound by having the original HT fight the FF's HT in FF Annual #4 (1966). And so it goes.

 

This story is related from an article I read in an issue of Overstreet's Comic Book Markerplace.

WOW. Thanks VK. I didn't know about the lawsuit. I appreciate the response, this is why I posted to begin with.

 

I was going to joke abot Stan Lee being there in the late 30's creating him but this is no laughing matter.

 

If DC could take Captain Marvel off the stands over a law suit with Fawcett, and CM bore no resemblance to Superman then this is a disgrace that Burgos did not get his credit when credit was due.

 

Stan the Man Lee built an empire but he was ruthless and egotistical it seems.

 

I still maintain that Kirby was just as much a driving force in Marvel as Stan was.

 

R.

As well as Ditko and all the other artists and writers.Stan Lee is a glory hog who claims to have created everything.If he could get away with it Im sure he would say he created the earth in 5 days.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

For example: if Jack Kirby gets credit for co-creating Iron Man, along with Lee and Heck, because Kirby did the cover to TOS #39 and designed the look for the Iron Man armor; then should Carl Burgos get credit for co-creating the Fantastic Four along with Kirby and Lee? I mean the look and design (and name) of the Human Torch was all Burgos. I know the silver-age version was a different entity, so to speak, but the concept character was from Carl Burgos. Other than being a human teenager, the silver-age Human Torch was pretty much a replica of the Golden age version. It's not like the Human Torch was Lee and Kirby's idea. In these days of giving credit where credit is due, maybe Carl deserves some partial recognition for Marvel’s flagship comic book.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mr. Burgos and Bill Everett since they were with Marvel since the beginning.

Maybe one of the best questions asked on the board (thumbs u

Of course he should get credit. btw I always found Burgos Human Torch much more interesting then Johnny Storm.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

The story of Carl Burgos is a sad one, indeed. He filed a lawsuit against Stan Lee over the rights to The Human Torch, back in the mid-60's....and lost. His daughter has told the story of her Dad being so mad about it that he BURNED all of his Human Torch original art. How much got 'torched'? Who really knows? Anyway, Uncle Stan, being the nice guy he is to the people who worked for him (at the time), rubbed salt in the wound by having the original HT fight the FF's HT in FF Annual #4 (1966). And so it goes.

 

This story is related from an article I read in an issue of Overstreet's Comic Book Markerplace.

Lets not forget Martin Goodman, he was the publisher, Stan Lee worked for him.

[Unca Ben]

Maybe one of the best questions asked on the board (thumbs u

Of course he should get credit. btw I always found Burgos Human Torch much more interesting then Johnny Storm.

Thanks, MR.COMICBOOK!!!! You don't know how nervous I was to start a thread. Even though I've been a comic book fan since late 1964, I'm a novice when it comes to the wealth of knowledge that is present on these boards.

[VK]

This is a good place to bring up all the good JIM SHOOTER did for creator's rights, during his tenure as EIC of Marvel. He fought hard for Kirby and others, and it seems like most of his 'luck' has been downhill ever since. Without Big Jim, the 80's and 90's wouldn't have had such a vast amount of creator-owned titles and characters. He broke the industrial mold, for the sake of all creators. God Bless You, Jimbo!

[Jeffro.]

For example: if Jack Kirby gets credit for co-creating Iron Man, along with Lee and Heck, because Kirby did the cover to TOS #39 and designed the look for the Iron Man armor; then should Carl Burgos get credit for co-creating the Fantastic Four along with Kirby and Lee? I mean the look and design (and name) of the Human Torch was all Burgos. I know the silver-age version was a different entity, so to speak, but the concept character was from Carl Burgos. Other than being a human teenager, the silver-age Human Torch was pretty much a replica of the Golden age version. It's not like the Human Torch was Lee and Kirby's idea. In these days of giving credit where credit is due, maybe Carl deserves some partial recognition for Marvel’s flagship comic book.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mr. Burgos and Bill Everett since they were with Marvel since the beginning.

 

I say give Burgos all the credit in the world for the Human Torch.

 

However, just because other people took his creation and placed him within a team doesn't mean he should get credit for helping create the FF.

 

The question is, did Burgos have a direct hand in helping to create the team that would be known as the FF? I don't know the answer to that.

 

[MR.COMICBOOK]

Maybe one of the best questions asked on the board (thumbs u

Of course he should get credit. btw I always found Burgos Human Torch much more interesting then Johnny Storm.

Thanks, MR.COMICBOOK!!!! You don't know how nervous I was to start a thread. Even though I've been a comic book fan since late 1964, I'm a novice when it comes to the wealth of knowledge that is present on these boards.

I just have started discovering Carl Burgos and Bill Everett, those two guys artwork and storytelling were unbelievable,

I wish they had gotten more recognition.

[Unca Ben]

For example: if Jack Kirby gets credit for co-creating Iron Man, along with Lee and Heck, because Kirby did the cover to TOS #39 and designed the look for the Iron Man armor; then should Carl Burgos get credit for co-creating the Fantastic Four along with Kirby and Lee? I mean the look and design (and name) of the Human Torch was all Burgos. I know the silver-age version was a different entity, so to speak, but the concept character was from Carl Burgos. Other than being a human teenager, the silver-age Human Torch was pretty much a replica of the Golden age version. It's not like the Human Torch was Lee and Kirby's idea. In these days of giving credit where credit is due, maybe Carl deserves some partial recognition for Marvel’s flagship comic book.

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mr. Burgos and Bill Everett since they were with Marvel since the beginning.

 

I say give Burgos all the credit in the world for the Human Torch.

 

However, just because other people took his creation and placed him within a team doesn't mean he should get credit for helping create the FF.

 

The question is, did Burgos have a direct hand in helping to create the team that would be known as the FF? I don't know the answer to that.

Good point!!

[Flaming_Telepath]

By the way Mr. Diggler, I love the photo of the babe in your signature. Just awesome, who is she? She reminds me of Lauren Bacall when she co-starred with Bogey in To Have and Have Not. My all-time favorite sexy actress. "You know how to whistle, don't you?.... "

 

That's the peerless Kelly Brook.

 

For more examples of her 'work', see my sig line. (thumbs u

[thehumantorch]

Great thread idea. Obviously the HT in FF is directly copied from Burgos' original HT. They are in appearance identical and have the same super power and name. I can't imagine any copyright infringement lawyer losing that case in court . I think it is fair to say one member of the FF is based on Burgos' GA HT, one is based on the Marvel monsters of the 50's, one is based on the GA Plastic Man and the Invisible Girl perhaps on HG Wells Invisible Man.

 

Has anyone ever heard where Stan came up with the Invisible Girl character?

 

There has certainly been a lot of discussion about Stan taking credit for creating most of Marvel's characters and there certainly seems to be some truth to that. He was the editor of Marvel Comics and I believe he was directly involved in the creation of every 60's Marvel character. No other Marvel employee could make that claim. I don't think Stan Lee is a bad person, I believe he was the frontman/huckster and naturally got the lion's share of credit.

 

A character isn't created in a vacuum. The editor, writer, artist, colorist may all have a hand in the genesis of a character and it is difficult to identify rights or assign credit.

 

If a guy in the mailroom told Stan that surfing was really hot in the mid 60's and Stan created the Silver Surfer that day or week does the mailroom guy deserve some credit?

 

If an employee creates something that sells well does the employee deserve a portion of the profits forever? I think the majority of us would agree that the creators of Superman, Batman, Spiderman and other lasting and lucrative characters deserve more than a per page rate but that's all they were promised when they created the characters. Thank god times have changed.

 

[VK]

Maybe one of the best questions asked on the board (thumbs u

Of course he should get credit. btw I always found Burgos Human Torch much more interesting then Johnny Storm.

Thanks, MR.COMICBOOK!!!! You don't know how nervous I was to start a thread. Even though I've been a comic book fan since late 1964, I'm a novice when it comes to the wealth of knowledge that is present on these boards.

I just have started discovering Carl Burgos and Bill Everett, those two guys artwork and storytelling were unbelievable,

I wish they had gotten more recognition.

 

During the SA, Burgos did an issue of Strange Tales (torch story of course). And Everett's return to Sub-Mariner in 1972 was a big event at the time. They got some recogition beyond the Golden Age. Especially Everett.