What if the comic historians deem Hulk 180 as true first appearance of Wolverine

[spidrvacc]

This is a great debate, great thread. I have always wondered about this. Personally I have always considered Hulk 180 and ASM 299 as the first app of Wolverine / Venom But respect that the first full issue is the collectors peice. WHat about the 2 appearances of Venoms supposed Arms in earler spiderman issues , are those Venoms first cameos? you could go crazy with it. I like that the Market has set the issue that is the collectible main issue for a charachter.

[joe_collector]

TWHat about the 2 appearances of Venoms supposed Arms in earler spiderman issues , are those Venoms first cameos?

 

Nope. that's a totally different character, a proposed female in the black suit that was never picked up.

[spidrvacc]

Really wow, thank you, I did not know that.

 

 

TWHat about the 2 appearances of Venoms supposed Arms in earler spiderman issues , are those Venoms first cameos?

 

Nope. that's a totally different character, a proposed female in the black suit that was never picked up.

[bocaratondefense]

I never understood the love affair with #181 myself. Perhaps the cover and full story makes more impact than the final page on #180, but I always thought #180 should carry more of a premium than it currently does.

[BronzeBruce13]

If people are paying $15K for a copy of Wolverine #1 in 10.0, then an Incredible Hulk #181 in 9.8 for seems like a hell of a bargain at $18K.

 

That has to be a mistake, and with the movie/speculator-induced madness on Wolverine, I cannot believe a Hulk 181 9.8 (even with the higher Census numbers) has never sold above $18K.

 

Last sale was $26,290

12 month average = $22,000

A Signature Series 9.8 signed by Stan Lee sold for $32K

 

Okay, so the Bronze One is on crack, thanks.

 

I think I understand what he was doing, crazy and illogical as it is, which was to compare the record-breaking CGC 9.8 Hulk 180 sale to the absolute-lowest, bottom-of-the-barrel, potential-EBay-scam, CGC 9.8 Hulk 181 results.

 

Which is kind of insane, as it proves nada.

 

Vince... my point, although not made as well as it could have been, was that the 2 books appear closer in value in the 9.8 grade than they used to be. It's not easy to compare the 2 books though because there have been many 181 9.8 sales in the last few years and only (1) 180 sale... in 2005. So, we really have no idea what the 9.8 gap "would have been" from 2005 and up until now.

 

My post would have been clearer if I listed the "current" 181 sales too. The last (3) were $20K+ with a high of $26K as posted, but I thought that was understood/common knowledge. I provided additional data for 181 9.8 trends prior because they exist (and are not that old, 2008-2007)... whereas they do not for 180. Just something to consider in the conversation.

 

Another 181 9.8 point was there was a 9.8 ow in the last Pedigree auction that stalled around the $15K mark not reaching reserve. Might be relevant to the discussion of recent sales/non-sales.

 

In any event, even considering the recent (3) higher 181 9.8 sales vs. the (2) 180 9.8 sales, the gap appears to be closer than it was in 2005 which is the last point we could actually measure it.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

(6) 180's and (21) 181's

 

 

Good point for sure... but I was speaking specifically about the 9.8 gap.

 

What are the Census numbers on 180 and 181 in 9.8?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Why must you continually use that azz-backwards approach to quoting?

[BronzeBruce13]

I tend to put them on top, I know, I'm a little odd. It just seems to make more sense there if you're responding to a single remark. After that, probably better on the bottom.

 

Why must you continually use that azz-backwards approach to quoting?

[joe_collector]

Well, there you go. It's like comparing Conan 1 vs. GL/GA 76, which have radically different HG Census numbers, and then using prices are a criteria for importance.

 

Conan #1 was voted a more important BA book than GL/GA 76, but there is no way you'd pay the same amount for a 9.6.

 

(6) 180's and (21) 181's

 

 

Good point for sure... but I was speaking specifically about the 9.8 gap.

 

What are the Census numbers on 180 and 181 in 9.8?

[BronzeBruce13]

I would agree with that. Supply definitely is a significant reason for the gap. Hulk 180's have only increased by 2-3 copies in the last 5 years or so, whereas Hulk 181's went from 6-7 all the way to 21.

 

The gap "would be" greater, no doubt, if the numbers were equivalent... but they're not. Different debate I suppose.

 

Well, there you go. It's like comparing Conan 1 vs. GL/GA 76, which have radically different HG Census numbers, and then using prices are a criteria for importance.

 

Conan #1 was voted a more important BA book than GL/GA 76, but there is no way you'd pay the same amount for a 9.6.

 

(6) 180's and (21) 181's

 

 

Good point for sure... but I was speaking specifically about the 9.8 gap.

 

What are the Census numbers on 180 and 181 in 9.8?

[Aman619]

I think both books sell for way more than Icare to pay for them, but put me down for wondering why 180 doesnt get the nod for first appearance.

 

It may finally see a change like we are seeing with Sgt Rock going from 81 to 83. Times change. I can definitely see a movement behind annointing 180 some day. Thered be a pretty good financial incentive too in pushing the cheaper book to prices higher than 181s get.

[Mac Man]

If that logic applies then ads would be first appearances, such as ads for Action 1, MM1, D27 etc.

 

Yeah, buy your Iron Fist 13's NOW!!

 

And I'm hoarding these as we speak, and you'll notice that Marvel is NOT promoting Hulk 180 here.

 

 

IF 13 also contains the 1st appearance of Sabretooth.

 

 

That's cool! I didn't know that ad was in IF 13--kinda ironic then that both Sabertooth and Wolverine debuted around the same time, huh?

 

Thanks for that tid bit, JC--very cool!

[Old Fashion PB and J]

If that logic applies then ads would be first appearances, such as ads for Action 1, MM1, D27 etc.

 

Yeah, buy your Iron Fist 13's NOW!!

 

And I'm hoarding these as we speak, and you'll notice that Marvel is NOT promoting Hulk 180 here.

 

 

IF 13 also contains the 1st appearance of Sabretooth.

 

 

That's cool! I didn't know that ad was in IF 13--kinda ironic then that both Sabertooth and Wolverine debuted around the same time, huh?

 

Thanks for that tid bit, JC--very cool!

I agree JC that is awesome! Learn something new every day.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Before Vince slaps you too....the ad for Hulk 181 predates IF 13.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think everyone already does consider Incredible Hulk #180 the first true appearance of Wolverine. There he is, big as life, right there in the last panel of the book.

 

However, I don't think that #180 will ever come close to rivaling #181 in terms of demand and value. Issue #181 sports such an iconic cover, with Wolverine engaged in fierce battle with the Hulk. That image will continue to be ingrained in everyone's mind. The entire book revolves around Wolverine, he appears throughout the issue. That comic was published about 35 years ago, and there has been no hint that #180 is gaining in popularity or value over #181. If anything, the gap is getting wider between the two.

 

This topic has been debated at great length many times. I suspect that it is people who own several high grade copies of Incredible Hulk #180 who keep trying to push that agenda.

 

Gasp!

 

People with an agenda and ulterior motive!?

 

No way!

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The market has determined that "Incredible Hulk 181" is the most valuable appearance of Wolverine in that title.

 

Whilst technically not the "first appearance", given the "what's next" in Incredible Hulk #180, the market has discounted that appearance.

 

Just as it has ads in Detective Comics for Action #1.

 

P.S. There are no "comic gods".

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Haven't had my coffee yet....

 

I'm on my second one

 

I've got a couple tall cans of Coors light left over from the weekend. I might as well get crackin'.

 

I can't believe that a person from Canada which has some of the finest beers made is drinking Coors light

 

 

I never understood that either.

 

 

But.....BUT....Rocky Mountain Spring Water....ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPRING WATER!!!!

[RockMyAmadeus]

For the record....wayyyyy back in the very late 70's, when X-Men first got popular, and Wolverine's first app was "broken out", issue #180 WAS worth more than #181. In fact, there's even a Mile High ad that lists #180 for more than #181.

 

Strange but true....

[homerwannabee]

My guess is it has to do with the cover. Fact is that 181 is a much better cover. Same thing goes for ASM 50 over ASM 51. The cover is just much, much better. This is what happens when you slab books, and the only thing you can show off is the front and back covers.

[Mutant Manatee]

Overstreet "Mint" prices for Incredible Hulk #180 & #181 from 1978-1983:

 

1978

180 0.75

181 1.20

 

1979

180 1.05

181 1.20

 

1980

180 1.20

181 3.75

 

1981

180 12.00

181 5.25

 

1982

180 6.00

181 16.00

 

1983

180 6.00

181 20.00

 

I honestly wonder if the anomaly in 1981 is a typo on Overstreet's part, because next to #180 it says "1st app. Wolverine" and next to #181 it says "Wolverine cameo" which is exactly the opposite from how it is listed every other year.