POSSIBLY STOLEN ART

[COMICKINGS]

I recently bought the cover art to Thunderbolts issue #127.This was the variant Venom art cover. When I paid for the cover with Paypal I didn't realize that I had the wrong address in the "ship to" section of the payment. Well,unfortunately the package was delivered over a week ago and while I have the phone # and email address of the person it went to,they seem to be ducking my attempts to talk to them. I just got hung op twice. I don't know what chance I have in getting the piece back but here is the image...

 

 

It was recieved in California.I don't know if this person has tried to shop it around or not.I'm just getting the message out there that if the person does try to sell it,it is a stolen piece.

 

Thanks Joey

[comix4fun]

Immediate Police Report...

 

You have to call the local PD where it was delivered and file a theft complaint.

 

The moment the person who received it realizes or is informed that the piece was mistakenly delivered to them and that you are the rightful owner it becomes larceny.

 

Before he attempts to move the piece a visit from the local PD might trigger the proper reaction or at the very least affirm your ownership rights.

 

C

[COMICKINGS]

I appreciate the info! Joey

[Pirate]

his name is Chris

[buyatari]

Immediate Police Report...

 

You have to call the local PD where it was delivered and file a theft complaint.

 

The moment the person who received it realizes or is informed that the piece was mistakenly delivered to them and that you are the rightful owner it becomes larceny.

 

Before he attempts to move the piece a visit from the local PD might trigger the proper reaction or at the very least affirm your ownership rights.

 

C

 

I don't understand his statement. It sounds like he paid for it to be shipped to another name and address. If that is what he paid for and that is what the seller did can this really be stolen art?

 

Who did you send this to? If his name and address were in your paypal file you must know them right?

[COMICKINGS]

It wasn't technically stolen. They just recieved it,and don't want to give it back. I only knew this person through an Ebay transaction they had with me. They won an auction from me of item that I had drop shipped to them. The same day I bought the artwork and forgot to change the "ship to" information back to my own information. So it was my mistake. But I have been leaving them messages on their answering machine,and emails since last week. Then somebody picked up the phone last night and I got hung up on twice. I don't know what you call it,but they have something that belongs to me and they know it and they don't want to give it back.

So I called the police in that city this morning and it looks like I am SOL. A $500 piece of art that belongs to a guy 3000 miles away isn't worth looking into.

[comix4fun]

Immediate Police Report...

 

You have to call the local PD where it was delivered and file a theft complaint.

 

The moment the person who received it realizes or is informed that the piece was mistakenly delivered to them and that you are the rightful owner it becomes larceny.

 

Before he attempts to move the piece a visit from the local PD might trigger the proper reaction or at the very least affirm your ownership rights.

 

C

 

I don't understand his statement. It sounds like he paid for it to be shipped to another name and address. If that is what he paid for and that is what the seller did can this really be stolen art?

 

Who did you send this to? If his name and address were in your paypal file you must know them right?

 

 

If I understand it right, the wrong address was given to the shipper.

 

Look at it this way. You buy a car, you ask for the car to be shipped but you give him your neighbor's address instead. It doesn't make it your neighbor's car. It makes it your car sent to the wrong address. All ownership rights are still intact.

 

Your neighbor has done nothing wrong if he turns the car over to you. If, however, the neighbor decides to lock the car in his garage, ignore your phone calls and pretend it his car now, it becomes larceny.

 

"finders keepers" really only works on the playground. I don't advise it anywhere else.

 

C

 

[comix4fun]

It wasn't technically stolen. They just recieved it,and don't want to give it back. I only knew this person through an Ebay transaction they had with me. They won an auction from me of item that I had drop shipped to them. The same day I bought the artwork and forgot to change the "ship to" information back to my own information. So it was my mistake. But I have been leaving them messages on their answering machine,and emails since last week. Then somebody picked up the phone last night and I got hung up on twice. I don't know what you call it,but they have something that belongs to me and they know it and they don't want to give it back.

So I called the police in that city this morning and it looks like I am SOL. A $500 piece of art that belongs to a guy 3000 miles away isn't worth looking into.

 

If I were you I would not stop at the front desk cops, ask to speak to a detective, explain that you are the rightful owner, and the piece was mis-shipped and that you have informed the improper recipient of the piece of your ownership and they refuse to turn over the piece. At that point it's Grand Theft (at least in this jurisdiction) and that's a felony.

 

C

[Spider-Variant]

Well, you said it was paid with Paypal and you never received it.

 

How did the shipper mail it? Signed confirmation?

 

Obviously I'm not suggesting screwing the seller, just wonder if he can help prove it was shipped to the address you gave? Maybe it wasn't?

 

 

[buyatari]

It wasn't technically stolen. They just recieved it,and don't want to give it back. I only knew this person through an Ebay transaction they had with me. They won an auction from me of item that I had drop shipped to them. The same day I bought the artwork and forgot to change the "ship to" information back to my own information. So it was my mistake. But I have been leaving them messages on their answering machine,and emails since last week. Then somebody picked up the phone last night and I got hung up on twice. I don't know what you call it,but they have something that belongs to me and they know it and they don't want to give it back.

So I called the police in that city this morning and it looks like I am SOL. A $500 piece of art that belongs to a guy 3000 miles away isn't worth looking into.

 

If I were you I would not stop at the front desk cops, ask to speak to a detective, explain that you are the rightful owner, and the piece was mis-shipped and that you have informed the improper recipient of the piece of your ownership and they refuse to turn over the piece. At that point it's Grand Theft (at least in this jurisdiction) and that's a felony.

 

C

 

He is right. I don't know if you have a leg to stand on but you won't know just by talking to the desk clerk. Ask for a detective then the chief if need be. There is a department in the FBI set up for internet fraud and also try the attorney general.

[buyatari]

Immediate Police Report...

 

You have to call the local PD where it was delivered and file a theft complaint.

 

The moment the person who received it realizes or is informed that the piece was mistakenly delivered to them and that you are the rightful owner it becomes larceny.

 

Before he attempts to move the piece a visit from the local PD might trigger the proper reaction or at the very least affirm your ownership rights.

 

C

 

I don't understand his statement. It sounds like he paid for it to be shipped to another name and address. If that is what he paid for and that is what the seller did can this really be stolen art?

 

Who did you send this to? If his name and address were in your paypal file you must know them right?

 

 

If I understand it right, the wrong address was given to the shipper.

 

Look at it this way. You buy a car, you ask for the car to be shipped but you give him your neighbor's address instead. It doesn't make it your neighbor's car. It makes it your car sent to the wrong address. All ownership rights are still intact.

 

Your neighbor has done nothing wrong if he turns the car over to you. If, however, the neighbor decides to lock the car in his garage, ignore your phone calls and pretend it his car now, it becomes larceny.

 

"finders keepers" really only works on the playground. I don't advise it anywhere else.

 

C

 

Ownership with a car is easier to determine. The name on the title. In this case the bill of sale (paypal payment) lists the address and name of the person it was sent to.

[COMICKINGS]

The shipper did exactly what he was supposed to do,and FedEx did what they were supposed to do. It was definitely my mistake. And it has boiled down to is if the people that recieved it will do the right thing and give it back. I talked with a friend of mine thats an officer here and he suggested I dall the District Attorney's office and see what they say.So I did and they told me it's a civil case and that I would have to take them to court. I'm in Virginia,they are outside of Los Angeles in Culver City. This pretty much sucks!

[comix4fun]

The shipper did exactly what he was supposed to do,and FedEx did what they were supposed to do. It was definitely my mistake. And it has boiled down to is if the people that recieved it will do the right thing and give it back. I talked with a friend of mine thats an officer here and he suggested I dall the District Attorney's office and see what they say.So I did and they told me it's a civil case and that I would have to take them to court. I'm in Virginia,they are outside of Los Angeles in Culver City. This pretty much sucks!

 

 

DA's, from experience, are either great at their job and are handling high profile crimes and won't want to be bothered by a case like this, or they are schlumps looking forward to their pension and they won't want to be bothered with a case like this....either way contacting the DA like this, out of the blue, without a police report for them to follow up against is just begging for them to discourage you, which is what they did.

 

You need to call that local PD and talk to a Detective. In the meantime a stern letter from an attorney, to the person who received the package, could not hurt.

 

C

[comicartcom]

The shipper did exactly what he was supposed to do,and FedEx did what they were supposed to do. It was definitely my mistake. And it has boiled down to is if the people that recieved it will do the right thing and give it back. I talked with a friend of mine thats an officer here and he suggested I dall the District Attorney's office and see what they say.So I did and they told me it's a civil case and that I would have to take them to court. I'm in Virginia,they are outside of Los Angeles in Culver City. This pretty much sucks!

 

It does suck, but it is totally a civil issue.

 

The person who has possession of the art did not steal it. You had it shipped to them and though you know it was a mistake, and the other guy knows it was a mistake, there isn't any criminal conduct.

 

In the court's eyes, for all Judge Brown knows is it might have been a gift or the result of some other deal that lacked a paper contract (a verbal contract instead) and now he doesn't know if you're being honest or if you were in a relationship for instance and now that the relationship has gone sour - you want back "the ring"

 

So when it is appealed to Judge Judy's court she comes to the same conclusion and her ruling is that "you must work it out between you because the court has no way of knowing what's going on"

 

Ultimately it becomes a "life lesson" if you are unable to get the other party to release the art to you. It is a strong message to make sure that all your information is correctly updated at yor bank, paypal, fleabay and everywhere else that you do business for your own personal security

 

here are some suggestions

 

1) offer the guy a "finder's fee" to return the art to you.

You spent $500 which may be a total loss. But if you offer him $100 ($50 before he sends the art, $50 after) and that way you keep your loss to a manageable amount instead of the whole $500

 

2) you publicly out his name. however you must keep in mind, that if you tell the story honestly, without embellishment and without any intent to damage the other party.. then you can tell the story as often as you wish.

 

however, if you tell the story and call him "a thief, spoonbag, etc" you are involved in an act that he can in turn sue you for defamation, libel, etc.. so if you go that route, you just have to be honest.. telling the truth is not a crime.

 

3) just forget it. Chalk it up and accept that you messed up and lost $500.. It may not be the first time you will be screwed in the hobby or in life and have to accept a loss when you aren't supposed to.

 

Myself, I'd go for #1 or #2

 

 

[comix4fun]

I have to respectfully disagree Rich,

 

Theft by Conversion is not a new concept under the law. With all of the paperwork that Joey has showing that he bought and paid for and purchased the ownership rights to that piece of art and only mistakenly had it mailed to someone else (which he can also show), all facts point to Joey's ownership and rights thereunder.

 

Up until the party that received that piece of art is informed that he doesn't have any rights to it there is no crime. The crime comes after the person receiving the artwork decides to keep it for themselves when they have notice it is not their property.

 

Once Joey informs the party that received the artwork that it was sent to them in error and they had no claim or right to it and they decide at that time to keep the artwork and not return it, it becomes Theft by Conversion.

 

It works the same for mistaken bank deposits too. If the bank makes an "error" and puts too much money into your account you can't withdraw it and take off for Aruba when you know it's not yours. It's Larceny, clear and simple and more than a few people have gone to jail under the "finder's keeper's" school of law.

 

There is a difference between a local PD not feeling like following up or a DA not wanting to be bothered and this NOT being a crime. Joey just has to find the right person to listen to him and make one trip out to the location. There is NO WAY the guy who got the art will want the trouble of dealing with the police for a $500 piece of art.

 

Your property doesn't cease to be your property because it is mistakenly delivered to someone else. It also doesn't give the recipient free reign to eliminate ownership rights because it showed up on their doorstep.

 

C

[comicartcom]

Chris, while I agree that the guy should know he has something that does not belong to him and he should return it, it would be mnuch harder to prove theft by conversion in this situation than it is for the Dutch bank that deposited 10mil into a couple's account that was withdrawn (and the couple has skipped town)

 

What Joey needs to do first to make it obvious theft by conversion is to send a certified or similar letter to the current possessor notifying them that he has something that does not belong to him and citing criminal law stautes both federally and locally to advise him of the penalties. Once the person has such a letter, then of course, the statutes take on their own lif from that point. In all likelihood, Joey needs to contact an attorney to have him write and send the letter. This costs money

 

so you weigh the scales:

do I want to pay an attorney and who knows what happens. I may even have to pay him again and if I continue to pay him, the $500 is a wash

 

or

 

#1, 2, or 3 as outlined in my previous post.

 

It's only $500 so no law is going to bother getting involved. When my warehouse was robbed in September, the detective on the case had as much interest in solving it as he did in getting hemorroids and that was almost $30,000 in merch.

 

what's right and what's achievable aren't always synonymous.

I've been ripped off on more than one occasion and there is only so much you can do and if you can do it easily and without much indigestion at a lower cost, you're ahead of the curve

[BeachBum]

Hey Joey

 

I live in Venice, next to Culver City... PM sent.

 

 

 

 

[COMICKINGS]

You guys are awesome and I appreciate all of the feedback! And especially to Dre (BeachBum) for offering to do some legwork for me out there. I just got a call about 20 minutes ago from the daughter of the lady that got the package. She told me her mother was out of town until the end of June,and that she would take care of it when she returns. I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks again! Joey

[buyatari]

You guys are awesome and I appreciate all of the feedback! And especially to Dre (BeachBum) for offering to do some legwork for me out there. I just got a call about 20 minutes ago from the daughter of the lady that got the package. She told me her mother was out of town until the end of June,and that she would take care of it when she returns. I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks again! Joey

 

Hopefully this person has no use for comic art and will be happy to send it back to you. I think a helpers fee of $20 would do it.

[comicartcom]

Hopefully this person has no use for comic art and will be happy to send it back to you. I think a helpers fee of $20 would do it.

 

I agree