PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 20 20

[DiceX]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

[comix4fun]

For anyone who missed it MENACE is being nominated for the HOS. Vote is on page 1990

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7234272&fpart=1990

 

And he already hit the notify moderator button on the poll.

 

I guess he feels we shouldn't follow our own guidelines.

 

 

Didn't you know he is above the rules??? How else could he still operate as a facilitator for CGC with all of the complaints on him

 

Where is this list of complaints you keep referring to? I see 2 issues.

 

He has had numerous complaints on him brought to Mikes attention of the last year or more. All of this is nothing new with Menace.

 

AKA - you do not know. It's ok not to know. If you have a list please share otherwise hearsay doesn't help. (thumbs u

 

I sense a very personal vibe with your posts. Do you have something personal with Menace?

 

No not hearsey what I know is from my conversations with Mike B a year ago when Menace screwed me. Menace also was added to the probie list last May by me. After a long apology Email from him about his family business blah blah blah. I felt bad and request the mods delete my flamming. I'm sure there are some from the ss room than can recall this and back me. Dscott I am sure remembers he helped with the situation.

 

Ok. So now we're up to 3 issues and the rest as I asked earlier is hearsay.

 

 

If one of those issues involves up to 10 people not getting their books because of an unreasonable and inexcusable delay on his part. I am reluctant to dismiss it as a single issue. Each of those people has an issue with him, don't they?

 

Otherwise we'd have a precedent, for example, for someone who ran a sales thread and did not deliver to 20 different people that it was just one issue because it was just one thread.

 

I disagree. There may be a number of reparations since there are a number of complaints but the root cause is one issue. If a number of comic shops do not receive their orders because a truck was in an accident then it is one issue or one problem with many ramifications.

 

Your example of one thread is many individual issues because the singularity you are referring to is the platform used and not the issue which caused the transaction(s) to go awry. In other words if the issue in the case of the sketch opp creates an all or nothing situation. Your example, is a list of possibly mutually exclusive events with something in common.

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

[comix4fun]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

 

That's the problem with lumping the lazy, unprofessional, and lax with the truly dishonest, evil and detrimental.

 

It makes the real bad guys not look as bad, and that's never good.

[Park]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I would be more concerned with how CGC is handling this in regards to allowing Menace to continue as a facilitator.

 

The HOS should be reserved for thieves with no remorse. Like Mr. Ticket's best buddy.

 

Allowing personal feelings and mob mentality, which this thread has been devolved into recently, will eventually reduce the PL and the HOS to something of little or no importance.

[N/A]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

[comix4fun]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

[Logan510]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Isn't the PL already a joke? When someone can be on that list multiple times and all it takes to get off is money or books, I can't take it seriously.

[TheMightyJohn]

How does it not make Menace a thief that he ignored pm's, removed himself from pm's, didn't respond to emails, or facebook messages concerning Jdubs return for 5 months? It was a sub $100 returned in July and he didn't bother to provide a refund until he was finally added to the POL and talk of the HOS last night? I'm sorry but Menace is a thief!

[comix4fun]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Isn't the PL already a joke? When someone can be on that list multiple times and all it takes to get off is money or books, I can't take it seriously.

 

 

In that way it's just like life. Screw up or screw someone....you make it right, your debt is marked paid.

 

The PL has served as an incentive several times for people to actually follow through because the carrot on the end of the stick is clearing their name off the list.

 

It's valuable from that point of view. Not everyone who's had a bad deal that led to a PL stint in necessarily a bad guy. Not much is served from having a scarlet letter for menial offenses where the offender put the offended into a position of being whole.

 

Some guys may abuse it, but you can't chuck the list entirely when it's worked effectively in many more instances.

[N/A]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Isn't the PL already a joke? When someone can be on that list multiple times and all it takes to get off is money or books, I can't take it seriously.

 

Yes the probation list is a joke but just not for the reasons you stated. (thumbs u

[N/A]

How does it not make Menace a thief that he ignored pm's, removed himself from pm's, didn't respond to emails, or facebook messages concerning Jdubs return for 5 months? It was a sub $100 returned in July and he didn't bother to provide a refund until he was finally added to the POL and talk of the HOS last night? I'm sorry but Menace is a thief!

 

You must be from Texas.

[bababooey]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Isn't the PL already a joke? When someone can be on that list multiple times and all it takes to get off is money or books, I can't take it seriously.

 

The reason they are ON it is money or books.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I would be more concerned with how CGC is handling this in regards to allowing Menace to continue as a facilitator.

 

The HOS should be reserved for thieves with no remorse. Like Mr. Ticket's best buddy.

 

Allowing personal feelings and mob mentality, which this thread has been devolved into recently, will eventually reduce the PL and the HOS to something of little or no importance.

 

Does this not apply to the solarcadet issue?

 

 

[N/A]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

Interesting.

 

In the context of a HOS discussion I think it is very relevant to differentiate. 10 different transactions all with the same undesireable result could be worthy of HOS while this one issue affecting 10 is not.

 

He should be on the PL until he makes it right. There is nothing I have seen posted here to suggest his intention is to rip people off.

[TheMightyJohn]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

Interesting.

 

In the context of a HOS discussion I think it is very relevant to differentiate. 10 different transactions all with the same undesireable result could be worthy of HOS while this one issue affecting 10 is not.

 

He should be on the PL until he makes it right. There is nothing I have seen posted here to suggest his intention is to rip people off.

 

Not refunding Jdub for 5 months is not ripping him off? That is what got him on the POL not the Medina opp.

[N/A]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

Interesting.

 

In the context of a HOS discussion I think it is very relevant to differentiate. 10 different transactions all with the same undesireable result could be worthy of HOS while this one issue affecting 10 is not.

 

He should be on the PL until he makes it right. There is nothing I have seen posted here to suggest his intention is to rip people off.

 

Not refunding Jdub for 5 months is not ripping him off? That is what got him on the POL not the Medina opp.

 

I believe he refunded him. What would you prefer? Some sort of restitution?

[Bio-Rupp]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

Interesting.

 

In the context of a HOS discussion I think it is very relevant to differentiate. 10 different transactions all with the same undesireable result could be worthy of HOS while this one issue affecting 10 is not.

 

He should be on the PL until he makes it right. There is nothing I have seen posted here to suggest his intention is to rip people off.

 

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

It seems like that until any of those other 9 people complain about the sketch opp, its still only one instance of probation list worthy behavior.

 

I do agree that if the opp is late in being processed by Menace that it will indeed affect ALL 10 people... its just that until let's say person #8 comes forward and states "yes I've been screwed", then he technically hasn't been.

 

Perhaps the other nine are willing to be more patient... or maybe each one knows Menace personally and realizes he will come through. Possibly he contacted each one of them via email and forgot about JDUB... no one knows.

 

Based on Menace's willingness to refund J DUB's money after it was brought here should at least let those other nine people know that the probability of getting their opp ...or at least their money back... is high.

[Bosco685]

Spiderman-On-Tilt was someone that ignored BucOne being on the PL. It didn't go so well, as BucOne then tried to do a chargeback. But there was his name on the list, providing fair warning something had gone so wrong before, it was enough to place him on the PL.

 

If you take the time to check the list, and then the history why someone is on there, you'll find it to be a useful reference.

 

BucOne does it again

[comix4fun]

 

 

While I agree this isn't a HOS issue, it's certainly a PL issue, and until we fully understand how many people are impacted, we aren't grasping the solution because we're not identifying the problem.

 

Or more simply, Menace dug this hole for himself, a lot of people are impacted and he doesn't need anyone diminishing the perceived reach of his own actions by splitting the hairs between "ramifications" and "issues".

 

There are many solid, responsible, earnest facilitators out there and, frankly, they would appreciate more distance being put between the way they handle business and what's being discussed here.

 

A little surprised by your answer. I thought we were discussing HOS and there needs to be more issues than what has been discussed so far. MightyJohnny kept referring to "the list" of issues. I agree on the PL and I do not see how I am diminishing anything.

 

 

When someone says he's got issues with delivering items to several people, it doesn't help clarify the scope of people impacted by calling something like the Medina sketch opp a "single" instance.

 

There's something like 10 sketches that have been done, completed, and waiting to be sent to CGC to make it back into the hands of the people who bought and paid for them long long ago.

 

They are ALL impacted, they all have an issue, gripe, and are in need to Menace to get off the pot and do what was promised. Every single person has an individual agreement with Menace. Each one paid, individually, for the service that was promised. Each one of them is owed, individually, the full and complete service they bought and paid for without unreasonable delay.

 

All I meant was, calling the sketch opp. with anywhere from 6-10 people waiting, unreasonably, for the books to get sent to CGC just "one" issue, gives the reader the impression that it's just one small problem. It's more effective, to determine the scope of what needs to be done to help these people to not lump things into a pile if the lumping leads to calling something like the Medina sketch opp. just one issue.

 

It's not your intention to do so, but that's what's coming across by fighting the semantic definition of "issues". That's all I meant.

 

Interesting.

 

In the context of a HOS discussion I think it is very relevant to differentiate. 10 different transactions all with the same undesireable result could be worthy of HOS while this one issue affecting 10 is not.

 

He should be on the PL until he makes it right. There is nothing I have seen posted here to suggest his intention is to rip people off.

 

 

Well, in both cases it's not the 10 different transactions that differentiate between PL and HOS. It's whether or not they can be rectified and how they can be rectified.

 

If he does his job, and delivers as was promised, then he can remain off/ be removed from the PL. I think that's true in either instance you mention.

 

Now if he were to thumb his nose at the boards, and the people he owes, and refuse to correct his behavior (basically if he took the cash and ran) then it would be HOS material.

 

I agree it doesn't seem to be his intention to rip people off. It seems he bit off way more than he could chew in several instances and that led to him not handle any of the responsibilities with the level of care and professionalism that the SS program demands of its facilitators and witnesses.

 

That's why I believe that the failure to perform on Menace's part is something that is PL worthy until everyone gets what's promised and that then his participation in future opportunities through the SS program should be scrutinized heavily from top to bottom.

[slym2none]

Putting Menace on the HoS list pretty much discredits the validity of the entire list.

Let's just do away with the regular PL and put everyone in the HoS.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I would be more concerned with how CGC is handling this in regards to allowing Menace to continue as a facilitator.

 

The HOS should be reserved for thieves with no remorse. Like Mr. Ticket's best buddy.

 

Allowing personal feelings and mob mentality, which this thread has been devolved into recently, will eventually reduce the PL and the HOS to something of little or no importance.

 

Does this not apply to the solarcadet issue?

 

 

Nope. Not IMHO, anyway.

 

 

 

-slym