PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[accessndx]

It is not about protecting him, per se, its about protecting the functionality of the HoS.

 

That I can get behind, but that guy deserves no benefit of the doubt.

[comix4fun]

I haven't voted as I still feel this is another example of a rush vote without all the information.

 

Maybe it's just a coincidence but it seems the HOS has expanded very rapidly in the few short years I've been reading these boards, compared to the short list of the decade before.

 

What information do you need? The guy said that a shop sold them, then he said he was being ripped off, then he said it was his roommate/friend making the covers so they could sell for profit. I'm just wondering how this is a rush without all the information.

Did you read the thread before it was scrubbed?

 

I didn't.

 

What I read was responses in a vacuum, no indication of what was said to elicit those responses. I read people saying both major grading houses missed the books they graded, then people saying they may be legit.

 

All I'm saying is personally, I haven't seen enough actual evidence to vote. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

 

I read it. The people that said they may be legit also said they had nothing to base it on other than a feeling. Then there were posts showing detailed pics of the inside staples. It was clear the books were doctored at that point. That's when the people that said they may be legit initially then changed their mind.

 

The responses, in a vacuum, or out (as I read them) read exactly as a guy changing his story on the fly when he got caught. A shop did it, he paid big money for them, he only wanted to get back what he paid for them, then a friend did it, and he wanted to try and make a few bucks flipping them. He wasn't straight with us, not for a second.

 

It's probably because I watched it unfold in real time, and I've seen this before, too many times. All ducks quack the same way, even if they proclaim themselves a swan.

[comix4fun]

I just don't understand why anyone would shield that d-bag from a list that protects everyone. He's the exact kind of insidious, erosive, underhanded scam artist that anyone in their right mind would want to avoid like a pool of diarrhea. Buy hey, let's talk about due process and HIS rights....LMAO.

 

It is not about protecting him, per se, its about protecting the functionality of the HoS. Speaking for myself, I take what has been done as a serious offense, no argument there, but scammers come through these Boards all the time, there was a period a year or two ago where it seemed every day some drifter was trying to sell a fake AF 15 or something. If every scammer went on the HoS it would not be true to its original purpose, as I understand it- to highlight the worst of the worst.

 

Its a Hall of Fame for Shame, so to speak, and not everybody gets in, even if they are having a career season in criminal terms.

 

 

 

To me the HOS is for the dishonest, the deceivers, the con men, the fraudsters, great and small. While the PL could be an honest dispute over grade or shipping or delays sending books out or payments late in coming they don't hold any innate or incurable dishonesty.

 

EVERY AF15 scammer deserves to be there because their actions and motivations transcend any single transaction. Undoing or refunding a single deal should not absolve them of all sins or, if it does absolve them of that single sin, it seems prudent to forgive but to never forget.

 

The "worst of the worst" aren't people with single bad transactions, borne of an honest disagreement or extenuating circumstances. I agree. However, truly dishonest or potentially fraudulent actions, even a single time, should never be something we don't make a permanent reminder of for those that come after us or who did not witness the action in progress.

 

That's really what the HOS is. It's a reminder. It's non-binding, so its function is purely informational. When someone does you or I or any of us the service of showing us their true face, be it ugly for beautiful, I would feel ignorant for not taking note and committing it to memory.

 

 

[Hado]

I haven't voted as I still feel this is another example of a rush vote without all the information.

 

Maybe it's just a coincidence but it seems the HOS has expanded very rapidly in the few short years I've been reading these boards, compared to the short list of the decade before.

 

What information do you need? The guy said that a shop sold them, then he said he was being ripped off, then he said it was his roommate/friend making the covers so they could sell for profit. I'm just wondering how this is a rush without all the information.

Did you read the thread before it was scrubbed?

 

I didn't.

 

What I read was responses in a vacuum, no indication of what was said to elicit those responses. I read people saying both major grading houses missed the books they graded, then people saying they may be legit.

 

All I'm saying is personally, I haven't seen enough actual evidence to vote. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

 

I read it. The people that said they may be legit also said they had nothing to base it on other than a feeling. Then there were posts showing detailed pics of the inside staples. It was clear the books were doctored at that point. That's when the people that said they may be legit initially then changed their mind.

 

The responses, in a vacuum, or out (as I read them) read exactly as a guy changing his story on the fly when he got caught. A shop did it, he paid big money for them, he only wanted to get back what he paid for them, then a friend did it, and he wanted to try and make a few bucks flipping them. He wasn't straight with us, not for a second.

 

It's probably because I watched it unfold in real time, and I've seen this before, too many times. All ducks quack the same way, even if they proclaim themselves a swan.

So more than one person read these responses real time, that's good.

 

[Chaseman210]

I haven't voted as I still feel this is another example of a rush vote without all the information.

 

Maybe it's just a coincidence but it seems the HOS has expanded very rapidly in the few short years I've been reading these boards, compared to the short list of the decade before.

 

What information do you need? The guy said that a shop sold them, then he said he was being ripped off, then he said it was his roommate/friend making the covers so they could sell for profit. I'm just wondering how this is a rush without all the information.

Did you read the thread before it was scrubbed?

 

I didn't.

 

What I read was responses in a vacuum, no indication of what was said to elicit those responses. I read people saying both major grading houses missed the books they graded, then people saying they may be legit.

 

All I'm saying is personally, I haven't seen enough actual evidence to vote. Your mileage may vary.

 

Yeah, I was keeping up with it while it was unfolding. I had the ready after I saw the seller's first response in the thread.

[CAHokie]

I was able to read it real time as well. Live, it left little doubt in my mind that he came up with excuse after excuse and then admitted to fraud. It got edited out and then eventually scrubbed to some extent but this guy seems to be taking advantage of collectors with fake products.

 

The HOS has seemed to grow quickly, but that could be because comics have been so hot the last few years with the movies and stuff and therefore a good source for running scams.

[HarveySwick]

Burden of proof??

 

I was in the thread..HE FLAT OUT ADMITTED that his friend made the fake books up..told us to all screw ourselves he was making money ..

 

He said he was out and out making and selling FAKE MANUFACTURED multiple cover books

 

I have no idea why CGC didn't care enough to leave thos incriminating responses in a thread..so other people could KNOW this guy ADMITTED

 

He was running a scam..

 

He deflected it several times with different excuses but did come clean..

 

So why is this a discussion..

 

If someone else was on here making up fake books..

 

Wouldn't you want them gone for the good of the rest of us??

 

[HarveySwick]

I just don't understand why anyone would shield that d-bag from a list that protects everyone. He's the exact kind of insidious, erosive, underhanded scam artist that anyone in their right mind would want to avoid like a pool of diarrhea. Buy hey, let's talk about due process and HIS rights....LMAO.

 

It is not about protecting him, per se, its about protecting the functionality of the HoS. Speaking for myself, I take what has been done as a serious offense, no argument there, but scammers come through these Boards all the time, there was a period a year or two ago where it seemed every day some drifter was trying to sell a fake AF 15 or something. If every scammer went on the HoS it would not be true to its original purpose, as I understand it- to highlight the worst of the worst.

 

Its a Hall of Fame for Shame, so to speak, and not everybody gets in, even if they are having a career season in criminal terms.

 

 

 

To me the HOS is for the dishonest, the deceivers, the con men, the fraudsters, great and small. While the PL could be an honest dispute over grade or shipping or delays sending books out or payments late in coming they don't hold any innate or incurable dishonesty.

 

EVERY AF15 scammer deserves to be there because their actions and motivations transcend any single transaction. Undoing or refunding a single deal should not absolve them of all sins or, if it does absolve them of that single sin, it seems prudent to forgive but to never forget.

 

The "worst of the worst" aren't people with single bad transactions, borne of an honest disagreement or extenuating circumstances. I agree. However, truly dishonest or potentially fraudulent actions, even a single time, should never be something we don't make a permanent reminder of for those that come after us or who did not witness the action in progress.

 

That's really what the HOS is. It's a reminder. It's non-binding, so its function is purely informational. When someone does you or I or any of us the service of showing us their true face, be it ugly for beautiful, I would feel ignorant for not taking note and committing it to memory.

 

This is a good analysis of HOS vs. PL. I'll admit that it is the"worst of the worst" sentiment that is the first thing that pops in my head every time I hear "Add him to the HOS!" And in this case, I looked at the guy as a complete loser that is pretty much done. Is he really going to be able to operate on eBay or here anymore? My thinking was - "what's the point of adding him to the HOS? He's not really a threat to anyone any longer."

 

But I think you've nailed it that his actions repeated over several transactions and the way he handled the situation by spinning lie after lie paints the picture of someone who is just plain and simple morally corrupt. He's on the same level as HusTruck.

[Dano]

I think the best function of the HOS are these conversations about whether a member is HOS worthy. That is when I place the name on my do-not-deal-with list. After that, I really don't go looking at either the Probation or HOS list before every transaction. I look at the list I created from the Probation Discussions thread!

 

Does anyone else do this? Do you look to the two lists before every transaction?

 

Dan

[comix4fun]

I think the best function of the HOS are these conversations about whether a member is HOS worthy. That is when I place the name on my do-not-deal-with list. After that, I really don't go looking at either the Probation or HOS list before every transaction. I look at the list I created from the Probation Discussions thread!

 

Does anyone else do this? Do you look to the two lists before every transaction?

 

Dan

 

 

I've done that. Some people just give you too much information about how they do business to ignore, even if they skate off a list on a technicality.

 

Also, I am getting old, and I need lists to remember things.

[MetalPSI]

Burden of proof??

 

I was in the thread..HE FLAT OUT ADMITTED that his friend made the fake books up..told us to all screw ourselves he was making money ..

 

He said he was out and out making and selling FAKE MANUFACTURED multiple cover books

 

I have no idea why CGC didn't care enough to leave thos incriminating responses in a thread..so other people could KNOW this guy ADMITTED

 

He was running a scam..

 

He deflected it several times with different excuses but did come clean..

 

So why is this a discussion..

 

If someone else was on here making up fake books..

 

Wouldn't you want them gone for the good of the rest of us??

 

People rather debate. Which is really odd to me, but hey, not all of us can be reactionary.

[ChiSoxFan]

The HOS has seemed to grow quickly

 

That does seem to be the perception, but for the HOS, that's not exactly the case. Year-by-year breakdown on additions (from most to least):

 

2013 -- 5

2010 -- 4

2014 -- 4

2008 -- 3 (2? -- see AlleyBat notation in edit comments below)

2009 -- 2 (3? -- see AlleyBat notation in edit comments below)

2012 -- 2

2006 -- 1

2015 -- 1

2007 -- none

2011 -- none

2016 -- none

 

2013 & 2014 seemed to be the apex for bad seeds, so to speak (Red Rocks, the Neelys, and GIJOEISAWESOME were part of that class), but the last year and a half has seen only one new addition to the HOS, while 2008-2010 -- 6-8 years ago -- saw almost half (9 of 22) of the "honorees" inducted in that three-year span.

 

FWIW, there have been only 3 additions to the PL this year as well. That's still 3 too many in a perfect world, but I like those odds better than what I'd find on eBay.

 

EDIT to add: It's been 17 months, give or take a day or two, since the last HOS addition. That's the 2nd longest period between additions if my math is correct (I'm not 100% sure, as the AlleyBat addition seems out of order on the master list -- 5th on the list, but with a date earlier than the three people before. A typo, maybe? If he was put on in May 2008 as the list states, then we are actually in a period tied for the longest without someone being added to the HOS, 2nd longest if it's supposed to be May 2009.)

Edited June 20, 2016 by ChiSoxFan

[MetalPSI]

Nice breakdown

[DR.X]

It is not our place to police the comic book world. It is also not our place to act as enforcers for eBay, Amazon or any other venues outside of these boards. Our place is to focus on transactions made between our members.

 

But I think it is our place to bring stuff like this to the attention of as many people and places we can. This hobby has to be protected as much as it can. Now I have to go and watch a crappy sci fi movie to get me going today.

[MustEatBrains]

The HOS has seemed to grow quickly

 

That does seem to be the perception, but for the HOS, that's not exactly the case. Year-by-year breakdown on additions (from most to least):

 

2013 -- 5

2010 -- 4

2014 -- 4

2008 -- 3 (2? -- see AlleyBat notation in edit comments below)

2009 -- 2 (3? -- see AlleyBat notation in edit comments below)

2012 -- 2

2006 -- 1

2015 -- 1

2007 -- none

2011 -- none

2016 -- none

 

2013 & 2014 seemed to be the apex for bad seeds, so to speak (Red Rocks, the Neelys, and GIJOEISAWESOME were part of that class), but the last year and a half has seen only one new addition to the HOS, while 2008-2010 -- 6-8 years ago -- saw almost half (9 of 22) of the "honorees" inducted in that three-year span.

 

FWIW, there have been only 3 additions to the PL this year as well. That's still 3 too many in a perfect world, but I like those odds better than what I'd find on eBay.

 

EDIT to add: It's been 17 months, give or take a day or two, since the last HOS addition. That's the 2nd longest period between additions if my math is correct (I'm not 100% sure, as the AlleyBat addition seems out of order on the master list -- 5th on the list, but with a date earlier than the three people before. A typo, maybe? If he was put on in May 2008 as the list states, then we are actually in a period tied for the longest without someone being added to the HOS, 2nd longest if it's supposed to be May 2009.)

 

That settles it then. We are long overdue for an add. This chump fits the bill IMO.

[Hado]

Maybe it's the 10 additions from 2013-15 that made it seem like a record pace.

[CAHokie]

Great breakdown Chi and good point Hado.

 

Is the type of offense why some are hesitant? If a person sold an AF-15 and when the box is opened it was a German newspaper would that be PL or HOS worthy? Would we be ok letting the seller off the hook if he issued a refund to the person bringing it up for nomination even if there were numerous unknown non-board victims as well?

 

I know there is a big distinction between an AF-15 and a made at home triple cover but I feel the underlying crime and morality is the same.

 

 

[Designer Toast]

The double covers guy certainly wasn't going to start issuing refunds on his own. This is the 'I'm caught so now I'll do the right thing, but only because I was caught'.

[Hado]

The double covers guy certainly wasn't going to start issuing refunds on his own. This is the 'I'm caught so now I'll do the right thing, but only because I was caught'.

Also true.

[MustEatBrains]

The double covers guy certainly wasn't going to start issuing refunds on his own. This is the 'I'm caught so now I'll do the right thing, but only because I was caught'.