PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[seanfingh]

So, Dekeuk's read my PM, it's been a week, no response. PL?

Just because....

Oh, by the way....

 

Since the rules now apply to ANY transaction regardless of venue, I'd like to nominate Dekuekelare or whatever his name is.

 

In Jan, 2009, he won a Batman #428 CGC 9.8 from me on ebay for $405. I shipped the book out to him via Free Media Mail (his choice.) When he received the book, he complained about the CGC grade, in particular that they had graded it a 9.8 with a tiny loose (not detached) chip in the BRC, common on these books. He claimed it had been damaged after the fact. I assured him that I knew exactly what he was talking about, that it was, in fact, NOT damaged, but that if he wasn't happy with CGC's grade, he should send it back. On the off chance that it WAS damaged (though what he was describing was not), it was fully insured, as always.

 

Instead of paying for return shipping, as he should have done, he took the book and the box it was shipped in back to the post office several days later (4 or 6, it's recorded somewhere else on these boards) and, in contravention to USPS regulations, "refused" the box so he could send it back for free. USPS regulations state that an item must be UNOPENED to qualify for refusal.

 

The box then got lost in the USPS system. Obviously, the USPS doesn't care much for Refused Media Mail.

 

After it had been lost in the mail for a month, "Dekeuk" wrote me and threatened me, stating that if I didn't pay him back his money...despite me having clearly NOT received the item back yet...he would file a Paypal claim...and that is precisely what he did. To date, that remains my first, last, and only charge-back EVER intitiated against me in 11+ years with Paypal. I have never in my life heard of a company refunding someone before they received the product back. Paypal ripped the money out of my account, and I was forced to cover it...even though, again, I had not received the item back, and proper protocol is to wait and file an insurance claim against loss.

 

He didn't like CGC's grading, which has nothing to do with me. He couldn't be bothered to pay for return shipping. He broke USPS regulations in returning the book. He filed a Paypal claim against me, even though it was HIS fault the book hadn't shown up back to me.

 

It eventually showed up a couple months down the road, but the damage had been long done. I had been timing the market, and after 3-4 more months, the value of the book had nearly halved, so I was only able to get $250 out of it. The subsequent buyer was quite pleased with the book and its grade.

 

In my mind, "Dekeuk" still owes me the difference, especially for the grief and damage to my Paypal reputation he put me through.

 

Dekeuk was later involved in an investment scheme on these boards, and disappeared entirely when called on it.

I vote no only because you probably still have 10 to 15 copies of Batman 428 that are already graded or that you are waiting to submit so regardless of what happened to the "market" during this particular transaction (no funds lost/book returned) not sure if I could see the justification as you being "wronged".

I think this is someone many would like to avoid but I don't think it's a PL situation.

 

Set the birds free, RMA, let them fly away and bother you no more.

[comix4fun]

So, Dekeuk's read my PM, it's been a week, no response. PL?

Just because....

Oh, by the way....

 

Since the rules now apply to ANY transaction regardless of venue, I'd like to nominate Dekuekelare or whatever his name is.

 

In Jan, 2009, he won a Batman #428 CGC 9.8 from me on ebay for $405. I shipped the book out to him via Free Media Mail (his choice.) When he received the book, he complained about the CGC grade, in particular that they had graded it a 9.8 with a tiny loose (not detached) chip in the BRC, common on these books. He claimed it had been damaged after the fact. I assured him that I knew exactly what he was talking about, that it was, in fact, NOT damaged, but that if he wasn't happy with CGC's grade, he should send it back. On the off chance that it WAS damaged (though what he was describing was not), it was fully insured, as always.

 

Instead of paying for return shipping, as he should have done, he took the book and the box it was shipped in back to the post office several days later (4 or 6, it's recorded somewhere else on these boards) and, in contravention to USPS regulations, "refused" the box so he could send it back for free. USPS regulations state that an item must be UNOPENED to qualify for refusal.

 

The box then got lost in the USPS system. Obviously, the USPS doesn't care much for Refused Media Mail.

 

After it had been lost in the mail for a month, "Dekeuk" wrote me and threatened me, stating that if I didn't pay him back his money...despite me having clearly NOT received the item back yet...he would file a Paypal claim...and that is precisely what he did. To date, that remains my first, last, and only charge-back EVER intitiated against me in 11+ years with Paypal. I have never in my life heard of a company refunding someone before they received the product back. Paypal ripped the money out of my account, and I was forced to cover it...even though, again, I had not received the item back, and proper protocol is to wait and file an insurance claim against loss.

 

He didn't like CGC's grading, which has nothing to do with me. He couldn't be bothered to pay for return shipping. He broke USPS regulations in returning the book. He filed a Paypal claim against me, even though it was HIS fault the book hadn't shown up back to me.

 

It eventually showed up a couple months down the road, but the damage had been long done. I had been timing the market, and after 3-4 more months, the value of the book had nearly halved, so I was only able to get $250 out of it. The subsequent buyer was quite pleased with the book and its grade.

 

In my mind, "Dekeuk" still owes me the difference, especially for the grief and damage to my Paypal reputation he put me through.

 

Dekeuk was later involved in an investment scheme on these boards, and disappeared entirely when called on it.

I vote no only because you probably still have 10 to 15 copies of Batman 428 that are already graded or that you are waiting to submit so regardless of what happened to the "market" during this particular transaction (no funds lost/book returned) not sure if I could see the justification as you being "wronged".

I think this is someone many would like to avoid but I don't think it's a PL situation.

 

 

I think how many other copies of this book he has is irrelevant. On this book, and this transaction he was supposed to get $405 and got $250, through no fault of his own. The math and the situation is one of the more clear cut and simple ones to comprehend, bringing in the seller's inventory is a non-starter and simply distracting to the core issue and the core problem.

 

That's not ever considering the grief, hassle and problem caused by this buyer to this seller over and above the simple monetary loss he suffered.

 

Furthermore, the "I think this is someone many would like to avoid" comment you made is EXACTLY why the PL is here in the first place.

 

YES vote here.

[DWL]

I voted "no, needs more discussion" because of one minor point, section 1c.

 

I think the text in 1c needs to be changed. I would recommend the text read: "1c The 30 day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction."

 

We should consider omitting the text "... or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else".

 

Unless I am mistaken, the seller should not be selling the book(s) to anyone else until the 30 day period is met and exceeded. Indeed, selling a book or books to someone else before the 30 days are up after you have agreed to sell them to someone would, in itself, be worthy of being placed on the probation list.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Other than this minor point, everything else on the list looks fine to me.

 

The point of that paragraph is to give you two specific examples where the 30 day waiting period is waived, and a person can be outed in the Probation Discussion thread immediately - I think it's fine as is :shrug:

 

Upon re-reading the rules I found 1c somewhat unclear. However, if you are suggesting the second example is referring to a situation where a seller sells a book(s) to someone else after having had an agreement to sell to someone, then yes there should be no need to wait thirty days before placing the seller on the PL.

 

If that is the intent, I stand corrected and the text in 1c can remain unchanged.

[DWL]

So, Dekeuk's read my PM, it's been a week, no response. PL?

 

Actually, I think he / she should be put on the list. As previous posters have noted, the sellers inventory is not relevant to the issue, and giving people a "heads up" about members to avoid is a main reason for the list. Especially when that member is still logging in and reading PMs.

 

Furthermore, while the new rules have not taken affect yet, a PM was sent. Dekeuk could come on here to present his / her side of the story but as of yet has not done so.

 

However, I don't agree asking for the difference (essentially an "opportunity cost") is reasonable. Don't hold your breath waiting to get paid back the difference.

[PovertyRow]

Upon re-reading the rules I found 1c somewhat unclear. However, if you are suggesting the second example is referring to a situation where a seller sells a book(s) to someone else after having had an agreement to sell to someone, then yes there should be no need to wait thirty days before placing the seller on the PL.

 

 

That is exactly right. I was trying to show an example of a buyer (deciding to not go through with the "I'll take it") and a seller (having a deal, then just turning around and selling it to another person).

 

Sometimes people (not mentioning any names or motorcycle riders) think immediately of "PL = bad buyer" so just trying to even things out.

[User 01001010]

So, Dekeuk's read my PM, it's been a week, no response. PL?

Just because....

Oh, by the way....

 

Since the rules now apply to ANY transaction regardless of venue, I'd like to nominate Dekuekelare or whatever his name is.

 

In Jan, 2009, he won a Batman #428 CGC 9.8 from me on ebay for $405. I shipped the book out to him via Free Media Mail (his choice.) When he received the book, he complained about the CGC grade, in particular that they had graded it a 9.8 with a tiny loose (not detached) chip in the BRC, common on these books. He claimed it had been damaged after the fact. I assured him that I knew exactly what he was talking about, that it was, in fact, NOT damaged, but that if he wasn't happy with CGC's grade, he should send it back. On the off chance that it WAS damaged (though what he was describing was not), it was fully insured, as always.

 

Instead of paying for return shipping, as he should have done, he took the book and the box it was shipped in back to the post office several days later (4 or 6, it's recorded somewhere else on these boards) and, in contravention to USPS regulations, "refused" the box so he could send it back for free. USPS regulations state that an item must be UNOPENED to qualify for refusal.

 

The box then got lost in the USPS system. Obviously, the USPS doesn't care much for Refused Media Mail.

 

After it had been lost in the mail for a month, "Dekeuk" wrote me and threatened me, stating that if I didn't pay him back his money...despite me having clearly NOT received the item back yet...he would file a Paypal claim...and that is precisely what he did. To date, that remains my first, last, and only charge-back EVER intitiated against me in 11+ years with Paypal. I have never in my life heard of a company refunding someone before they received the product back. Paypal ripped the money out of my account, and I was forced to cover it...even though, again, I had not received the item back, and proper protocol is to wait and file an insurance claim against loss.

 

He didn't like CGC's grading, which has nothing to do with me. He couldn't be bothered to pay for return shipping. He broke USPS regulations in returning the book. He filed a Paypal claim against me, even though it was HIS fault the book hadn't shown up back to me.

 

It eventually showed up a couple months down the road, but the damage had been long done. I had been timing the market, and after 3-4 more months, the value of the book had nearly halved, so I was only able to get $250 out of it. The subsequent buyer was quite pleased with the book and its grade.

 

In my mind, "Dekeuk" still owes me the difference, especially for the grief and damage to my Paypal reputation he put me through.

 

Dekeuk was later involved in an investment scheme on these boards, and disappeared entirely when called on it.

I vote no only because you probably still have 10 to 15 copies of Batman 428 that are already graded or that you are waiting to submit so regardless of what happened to the "market" during this particular transaction (no funds lost/book returned) not sure if I could see the justification as you being "wronged".

I think this is someone many would like to avoid but I don't think it's a PL situation.

 

 

I think how many other copies of this book he has is irrelevant. On this book, and this transaction he was supposed to get $405 and got $250, through no fault of his own. The math and the situation is one of the more clear cut and simple ones to comprehend, bringing in the seller's inventory is a non-starter and simply distracting to the core issue and the core problem.

 

That's not ever considering the grief, hassle and problem caused by this buyer to this seller over and above the simple monetary loss he suffered.

 

Furthermore, the "I think this is someone many would like to avoid" comment you made is EXACTLY why the PL is here in the first place.

 

YES vote here.

 

 

i too fell victim to this doosh too, not getting into it, but yes i think he needs to be on it too.

[Iceman399]

I am relatively new here to buying comics but been around for a couple of months. Recently I purchased a book (early June). The seller requested IMMEDIATE payment, which I had no problem with and funds were sent within an hour of receiving the invoice from them. The paypal message said that they would ship out the book that following weekend (3 or so days later). It has now been over a month. I sent a PM to the individual to ask what day the book was shipped as I had yet to receive it. The individual read the PM within 12 hours, did not respond until atleast 80+hrs later.

In the mean time of reading the PM and not responding the individual started another sales thread so I knew they had been online long enough to reply to a previous customer (myself). So the reply came in and they have YET to ship the book. Its now been ~35 days since I paid for the book. They stated they would get around to shipping the book by the end of the week. I have seen how that worked out in the first place.

 

Where do I go from here?

[comicdonna]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

[Iceman399]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

[PovertyRow]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

[JazzMan]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

 

DimebagD added to the probation list.....I kid, I kid.

[Iceman399]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

 

Tried to handle this as best as possible and asked a previous individual who sold me some books for their input on the best way to handle the situation. I am also very good at lurking/reading threads

 

I R SMRT!

[comicdonna]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

 

Tried to handle this as best as possible and asked a previous individual who sold me some books for their input on the best way to handle the situation. I am also very good at lurking/reading threads

 

I R SMRT!

[Green]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

 

Tried to handle this as best as possible and asked a previous individual who sold me some books for their input on the best way to handle the situation. I am also very good at lurking/reading threads

 

I R SMRT!

[PovertyRow]

It would seem that you have been more than patient. You could recommend that this person be added to the probation list. Also, notify him/her of this thread so we can hear both sides of the story.

 

Thanks I have sent a pm to DimebagD notifying him of the issues.

 

For a relatively new person you handled this well.

 

DimebagD added to the probation list.....I kid, I kid.

 

Deja vu!

[oakman29]

I am relatively new here to buying comics but been around for a couple of months. Recently I purchased a book (early June). The seller requested IMMEDIATE payment, which I had no problem with and funds were sent within an hour of receiving the invoice from them. The paypal message said that they would ship out the book that following weekend (3 or so days later). It has now been over a month. I sent a PM to the individual to ask what day the book was shipped as I had yet to receive it. The individual read the PM within 12 hours, did not respond until atleast 80+hrs later.

In the mean time of reading the PM and not responding the individual started another sales thread so I knew they had been online long enough to reply to a previous customer (myself). So the reply came in and they have YET to ship the book. Its now been ~35 days since I paid for the book. They stated they would get around to shipping the book by the end of the week. I have seen how that worked out in the first place.

 

Where do I go from here?

 

Did'nt you get the memo? there's a new type of customer service,buyers should take whatever they get. In fact you should be lucky that a seller would even dare allow one to buy their comics.I'm sure you got the memo.

[Iceman399]

I am relatively new here to buying comics but been around for a couple of months. Recently I purchased a book (early June). The seller requested IMMEDIATE payment, which I had no problem with and funds were sent within an hour of receiving the invoice from them. The paypal message said that they would ship out the book that following weekend (3 or so days later). It has now been over a month. I sent a PM to the individual to ask what day the book was shipped as I had yet to receive it. The individual read the PM within 12 hours, did not respond until atleast 80+hrs later.

In the mean time of reading the PM and not responding the individual started another sales thread so I knew they had been online long enough to reply to a previous customer (myself). So the reply came in and they have YET to ship the book. Its now been ~35 days since I paid for the book. They stated they would get around to shipping the book by the end of the week. I have seen how that worked out in the first place.

 

Where do I go from here?

 

Did'nt you get the memo? there's a new type of customer service,buyers should take whatever they get. In fact you should be lucky that a seller would even dare allow one to buy their comics.I'm sure you got the memo.

 

What about the other customer service or was it customer cervix or customer circus... I forget.

[PovertyRow]

Status of Poll on PL Rules

 

Current voting as of this post is:

 

New Rules good to go - 11 votes (50%)

New Rules good to go but without item 2d - 8 votes (36%)

Need More Discussion - 2 votes (9%)

Flavor lovers - 1 vote (5%)

 

Poll Is here:

Vote In PL Rules Poll

 

[Bosco685]

Nice job keeping this train moving forward.

[Snake Eyes]

Posted this in general to hopefully get as good a turn-out as possible

 

Hello Fellow Boardies

 

Just a quick announcement in a couple of places regarding some efforts to revise the rules governing the Probation List in the marketplace. There is currently a poll here....

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=80&Number=4927943&Searchpage=1&Main=163911&Words=abed+Povertyrow&topic=0&Search=true#Post4927943

 

There is a pretty good discussion of the rationale for changes and arguments both for and against some of the revisions in the pages preceding the poll. If you do occasionally shop in the marketplace, you might want to stop by and check it out and offer any comments/thoughts you might have

 

And before I go...a special thanks to Pov in particular for spearheading the effort and putting in a good bit of work on the new guideline proposal

 

Have a great night everyone

 

SE/Heath

 

 

Also feel free to copy this post to various sub-forums if you think it would be useful.