Manufactured Gold

[Red Hook]

I think most sellers are more than willing to play the odds in order to get their books into a Heritage auction. I bet many if not most of the bidders on Heritage's auctions have never seen the material presented here. Of course, if Heritage themselves is in on this in any way (including buying books consigned to them that they feel have potential)...... then it's a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

 

After a couple of years of taking in all the information available, I feel the best approach is to maintain an extremely heavy level of skepticism. I've not seen many of my deepest concerns allayed up to this point.

[drbanner]

Wake up, folks! Heritage can make a whole lot more money from this business strategy than merely gobbling up the vig from buyer and seller. Once the books that are consigned to Heritage are in their hands, they can look them over for the most likely "upgrade" candidates, and then attempt to win as many of them as possible at auction.

 

 

And remember, a few years ago there was apparently some innuendo that Matt Nelson was working for Heritage. Having the books in-hand to identify "likely candidates" would definitely be the way to go if you were looking to crack/improve/resub, whether it was formally through Heritage, or as a buyer/consignor.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Wake up, folks! Heritage can make a whole lot more money from this business strategy than merely gobbling up the vig from buyer and seller. Once the books that are consigned to Heritage are in their hands, they can look them over for the most likely "upgrade" candidates, and then attempt to win as many of them as possible at auction.

 

 

And remember, a few years ago there was apparently some innuendo that Matt Nelson was working for Heritage. Having the books in-hand to identify "likely candidates" would definitely be the way to go if you were looking to crack/improve/resub, whether it was formally through Heritage, or as a buyer/consignor.

 

I think very recently Jim Halperin admitted to tempting Matt to move close because of the 'potential for work'.

[Red Hook]

Mission Accomplished.

 

 

 

[tth2]

Brad, do you disagree that sellers of resubs, wanting to disguise their actions, would be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage, where evidence of their actions is archived for all to see? That was my main point.

Even more to the point, if Heritage is buying and resubbing books themselves, and then selling the books on Heritage, wouldn't it make a lot more sense for them not to maintain an extensive archive of all the books they've sold? If they didn't maintain a great archive, how many of the manipulated and/or upgraded books would we have identified?

[Red Hook]

Ever hear of....misdirection?

 

Besides, if they closed it down at this point, it would be a scandal. Having it up proves nothing, except that apparently the reward of having it up, still outweighs the risk to further profit.

 

 

Imagine this.....

 

Tomorrow, Heritage removes the entire image database. What would the reaction be?

 

I say disastrous for their PR.

[Mr. Zipper]

Ever hear of....misdirection?

 

Or hiding in plain sight.

 

 

Tomorrow, Heritage removes the entire image database. What would the reaction be?

 

I say disastrous for their PR.

 

Why would it be any worse than other scandals which all eventually blew away as the hobby got back to business as usual?

 

Heritage could wipe out the database with one sentence and no one could say a peep. "Due to the increased cost of maintaining the auction archive including the associated salary and benefits, Heritage has decided to maintain auction scans for 90 days only."

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Ever hear of....misdirection?

 

Besides, if they closed it down at this point, it would be a scandal. Having it up proves nothing, except that apparently the reward of having it up, still outweighs the risk to further profit.

 

 

Imagine this.....

 

Tomorrow, Heritage removes the entire image database. What would the reaction be?

 

I say disastrous for their PR.

 

I disagree entirely. If you haven't already been swayed by the evidence presented here, you never will be. If you have no idea what's going on and still buy from Heritage, one day waking up to find their archives gone won't influence you at all.

 

The fact is the majority of the people who are either riding the fence or mentally "write off" the mountain of evidence on Heritage business practices are practicing a form of self-delusion. 'Show me more evidence', they say, 'show me direct proof'. And then the evidence is presented, and its NEVER enough to satisfy them...they want a smoking gun. They want a date stamped, notarized, high resolution picture of OJ Simpson killing Nicole. They want what doesn't exist.

 

Just like putting together a 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzle is made considerably easier by knowing what the picture looks like beforehand (like, from the boxtop), assembling the pieces of the Heritage puzzle requires a vague conception of what the "big picture" looks like. Those who can't make the pieces fit simply refuse to accept what the big picture might be.

[nearmint]

Ever hear of....misdirection?

 

Besides, if they closed it down at this point, it would be a scandal. Having it up proves nothing, except that apparently the reward of having it up, still outweighs the risk to further profit.

 

 

Imagine this.....

 

Tomorrow, Heritage removes the entire image database. What would the reaction be?

 

I say disastrous for their PR.

 

I disagree entirely. If you haven't already been swayed by the evidence presented here, you never will be. If you have no idea what's going on and still buy from Heritage, one day waking up to find their archives gone won't influence you at all.

 

The fact is the majority of the people who are either riding the fence or mentally "write off" the mountain of evidence of Heritage business practices are practicing a form of self-delusion. Show me more evidence they say, show me direct proof. And then the evidence is presented, and its NEVER enough to satisfy them...they want a smoking gun. They want a date stamped, notarized, high resolution picture of OJ Simpson killing Nicole. They want what doesn't exist.

 

Just like putting together a 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzle is made considerably easier by knowing what the picture looks like beforehand (like, from the boxtop), assembling the pieces of the Heritage puzzle requires a vague conception of what the "big picture" looks like. Those who can't make the pieces fit simply refuse to accept what the big picture might be.

 

But doesn't your post proceed from the assumption that everyone cares about pressing? Many are not practicing self-delusion, they simply don't care if a book has been pressed or not.

[Red Hook]

This isn't about pressing. Who mentioned pressing? The books that Master Chief has been showing here have had more than pressing administered to them.

[Sal]

Ever hear of....misdirection?

 

Besides, if they closed it down at this point, it would be a scandal. Having it up proves nothing, except that apparently the reward of having it up, still outweighs the risk to further profit.

 

 

Imagine this.....

 

Tomorrow, Heritage removes the entire image database. What would the reaction be?

 

I say disastrous for their PR.

 

seems like an enterprising individual with a TON of free time and a lot of bandwidth to use could make a nice little site by downloading and catalouging the Heritage image database. you know, just in case

[Mr. Zipper]

Many are not practicing self-delusion, they simply don't care if a book has been pressed or not.

 

True. But don't you think many of these refurbished books go way beyond what most people would consider "simple pressing?"

 

We're talking about books that have been pressed, cleaned, scraped, staples removed, extra covers switched, taken apart (sometimes more than once) and God knows what else.

 

How many people would pay $2,500 for book X if they KNEW book X was a $500 sale three months earlier and in a much lower grade?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

But doesn't your post proceed from the assumption that everyone cares about pressing? Many are not practicing self-delusion, they simply don't care if a book has been pressed or not.

 

Jeff, I'm not talking about simply Pressing.

 

I'm talking about the whole discounted purchase of consignment items/resub/resell model that Filter outlined so well last night. To me, it smacks of a serious conflict of interest between the auction house and the consignor.

 

The 19.5% buyers premium will always insure Heritage has the upperhand over outside bidders on any item it wants, and to add insult to injury, the seller still has to give up a 10% commission for the sale.

 

And let's not forget, its no longer Pressing, its now Disassembly and Pressing. Because anyone who buys a high dollar slabbed book has to accept the possibility that the book has been taken apart as well as Pressed if its sitting in a Blue label holder.

[Red Hook]

Many are not practicing self-delusion, they simply don't care if a book has been pressed or not.

 

True. But don't you think many of these refurbished books go way beyond what most people would consider "simple pressing?"

 

We're talking about books that have been pressed, cleaned, scraped, staples removed, extra covers switched, taken apart (sometimes more than once) and God knows what else.

 

How many people would pay $2,500 for book X if they KNEW book X was a $500 sale three months earlier and in a much lower grade?

 

Key phrase here is...."if they KNEW".

[esquirecomics]

The very fact that this kind of data can be compiled by simply navigating Heritage's archive tells me that the re-subbers aren't terribly concerned about their actions being discovered.

 

Boy that comment seems rather cavalier. It is the second time I have read such a nonchalant statement with an inference as to how simplistic it is to conduct this type of research.

 

Frankly, there is nothing simple about it. Perhaps it is when you are tracking one or two books prior to an auction, but if you’ve got your pulse on several books, I’d say forget it. It takes time to dig deep examining scans, running serial numbers, crosschecking data, and cataloguing information.

 

So unless you’re out of work, or you don’t need to work, a majority of folks don’t have the time to sink this kind of effort into research before bidding. That, I believe, is what the perpetrators of undisclosed treatment are banking on.

 

BTW...I have noticed it is getting much harder to track recently treated books – especially the high-end stuff. Why? Just for the reason you suggest. The numerous websites that do not maintain a database of past auctions.

 

MasterChief, you've put together some great examples of re-subs in this thread. I think everyone on the boards appreciates the amount of work you've put into it. But, board members have been discovering re-subs and posting about them for years. Any dealer or collector with any familiarity with the boards would have to know that if they bought a book from Heritage, cracked, pressed, and re-sold through Heritage, that there's a good chance that a board member would spot it and alert the forum community. My only point was that if said dealer/collector really wanted to hide their actions, they'd be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage.

 

Jeff, I have to respectfully disagree. As one of those board members who's been going through the scans for a couple of years, what MC has been doing is another level of connecting-the-dots entirely. Documenting and presenting the material in a form that is cohesive and undeniable, as well as presenting it in a matter-of-fact manner. I appreciate his work, and I also recognize the fact that a consistant methodology has only been theorized before. MC has laid it out quite plainly. It's groundbreaking work.

 

Brad

 

Brad, do you disagree that sellers of resubs, wanting to disguise their actions, would be better off selling elsewhere than Heritage, where evidence of their actions is archived for all to see? That was my main point.

 

I would disagree, or at least provide a caveat you are missing, and it is the same reason why tth2 is using Heritage to sell his books (and this is nothing negative directed at you, Tim), and that is $$$$$$.

 

The people who are playing the game that MasterChief and others are exposing ever so slightly are motivated by personal greed, nothing more, nothing less. Heritage, whatever its faults may be, has probably the biggest audience and bucks banking it, i.e., buyers. Taking what I said above (that these cowards don't believe they can or will be caught) and coupling it with the monetary gains that Heritage provides above and beyond most other outlets (and I would be willing to bet that these are repeat Heritage customers which means the seller's premium will range from 0% - 7.5%), there is nothing surprising here at all.

[burntboy]

But doesn't your post proceed from the assumption that everyone cares about pressing? Many are not practicing self-delusion, they simply don't care if a book has been pressed or not.

 

Jeff, I'm not talking about simply Pressing.

 

I'm talking about the whole discounted purchase of consignment items/resub/resell model that Filter outlined so well last night. To me, it smacks of a serious conflict of interest between the auction house and the consignor.

 

The 19.5% buyers premium will always insure Heritage has the upperhand over outside bidders on any item it wants, and to add insult to injury, the seller still has to give up a 10% commission for the sale.

 

And let's not forget, its no longer Pressing, its now Disassembly and Pressing. Because anyone who buys a high dollar slabbed book has to accept the possibility that the book has been taken apart as well as Pressed if its sitting in a Blue label holder.

 

i think this sums it up rather well..............

 

now if there was only some way to actually establish who bought this latest group of books the first time around and who actually sold them the second time around, we'd have some concrete evidence ...................until then, we'll never have the proof to "convict".............

 

i mean, i can arrive at what i perceive to be the logical solution, but will likely never really know until some "disgruntled" former employee blows the whistle (and even then the "testimony" would be potentially suspect...........)

[nearmint]

Heritage, whatever its faults may be, has probably the biggest audience and bucks banking it, i.e., buyers.

 

Those of us bidding in this week's Comiclink focused auction can attest to the fact that CL is getting very strong bids, perhaps Heritage-strong.

[esquirecomics]

Heritage, whatever its faults may be, has probably the biggest audience and bucks banking it, i.e., buyers.

 

Those of us bidding in this week's Comiclink focused auction can attest to the fact that CL is getting very strong bids, perhaps Heritage-strong.

 

The modifying word is "perhaps". CL does not do the business that Heritage does even though CL's reach is no doubt impressive among comic book dealers.

[nearmint]

And let's not forget, its no longer Pressing, its now Disassembly and Pressing. Because anyone who buys a high dollar slabbed book has to accept the possibility that the book has been taken apart as well as Pressed if its sitting in a Blue label holder.

 

Understood.

[Red Hook]

The people who are playing the game that MasterChief and others are exposing ever so slightly are motivated by personal greed, nothing more, nothing less. Heritage, whatever its faults may be, has probably the biggest audience and bucks banking it, i.e., buyers. Taking what I said above (that these cowards don't believe they can or will be caught) and coupling it with the monetary gains that Heritage provides above and beyond most other outlets (and I would be willing to bet that these are repeat Heritage customers which means the seller's premium will range from 0% - 7.5%), there is nothing surprising here at all.

 

It's also not surprising because with the Pandora's box that CGC may have unwittingly opened, and resubbing becoming SOP, a seller has to feel that he'd be a chump not to explore the potential of his books before selling. As slabbed books become more of a commodity to many people, I suspect that there is less and less soul-searching going on by practioners of the game. And new converts are coming in every day.

 

If I'm struggling Dealer X, and I'm not independently wealthy, and I've got a mortgage to pay and maybe a kid on the way.....and I don't have a huge professional practice on the side to subsidize my comic biz.....I'd probably ask myself why I should leave mucho bucks on the table just so some other sleazebag will scoop it up and resub.