Manufactured Gold

[kc120us]

having said that; i'm as confused as ever..........i read and reread Steve's note and thought it was clear (as Red has already stated) that NOW CGC DID NOT consider diassembly and reassembly of books as resto.

 

they would get downgraded if done poorly, but if no other resto was determined, the work wouldn't generate a purple or green label.

 

yet, Matt continues to feel that CGC would generate a Green label IF disassembly were discovered.............well, it's gotta be one or the other, right???

 

Reading between the lines of Matt and Steves posts, and seeing the examples, I believe CGC would give the book a green label if they felt the staples were replaced (even if they were the original staples but put back in incorrectly).

 

A question for Matt, If a book has been disassembled and reassembled how would you be able to tell the staples have been replaced? What visual clues do you look for?

[shadroch]

Quick question-

Now that CGC is aware of the Sensation having its covers switched,not once but twice-have they called for it to be returned? Have they suspended the account of the person who submitted it?Done anything besides give a mumbo-jumbo explanation of why a dissassembled book was given a blue label?

 

Is this a rhetorical question? CGC doesn't view swapping the covers back the way they were as restoration. Why would they ask for the book back or suspend the submitter? I'm not saying I agree with CGC's stance on whether the book was "restored" or not, but I can't imagine them suspending a submitter because of that book. In my mind, there's a big difference between swapping the covers back the way they were and trimming a book.

 

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

 

No.It would be punishing someone for trying to slip a book past them.Its policing their own backyard.

 

 

Besides which,and totally seperate from CGC,I would hope that a reputable restoration company would not continue to do business with people that sell restored books unrestored.What are your thoughts on this?

[infinite_comics-migration]

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

 

They kicked Jason Ewart out of the hobby. Is that not a police action?

 

Didn't they also suspend a British seller who doctored a Batman # 11?

[Ze-man]

having said that; i'm as confused as ever..........i read and reread Steve's note and thought it was clear (as Red has already stated) that NOW CGC DID NOT consider diassembly and reassembly of books as resto.

 

they would get downgraded if done poorly, but if no other resto was determined, the work wouldn't generate a purple or green label.

 

yet, Matt continues to feel that CGC would generate a Green label IF disassembly were discovered.............well, it's gotta be one or the other, right???

 

Reading between the lines of Matt and Steves posts, and seeing the examples, I believe CGC would give the book a green label if they felt the staples were replaced (even if they were the original staples but put back in incorrectly).

 

To bad we are have to read between the lines to walk away with what we think is correct. My time is fleeting lately, and it sure is hard to correctly wrap my arms around everything this thread involves.

 

Didn't some of he books that Master Chief posted appear to have staples swapped, switched, or removed and replaced among other work done, yet still recieved a blue label?

 

Ze-

[Matt Nelson]

Does it really matter who caught him?

 

Actually, in the context of this argument, it's the only thing that matters. CGC did not flag the disassembly and staple replacement because (a) they were played by a dealer who 'knew the score' and (b) they do not use a database for prior submissions.

 

The point is that Ewert knew how to get things past CGC...and the FF #3 is a 100%, perfect example of that. The fact that he didn't know how to get it past the talent on the boards is another thing entirely and please don't confuse the two.

 

 

So moving forward, don't you think that the combined efforts of CGC and the boards would discourage most people from attempting these things? If not, what will it take?

 

I feel like we're back to the finger-pointing with little effort to get to a solution or some sort of acceptence.

 

 

...but they're the best thing out there.

 

 

case in point.

 

Matt,

 

I do not for one minute believe Ewert is gone. Why would he. His getting caught should have just shifted the game. He got caught because he took high profile books that people had scans of and trimmed them. If he stuck with ungraded lower dollor books, no problem. He just needs to stick with this business model. One thing the comic game has always shown is crooked people always come back. The money is to attractive. Does he still submit to CGC? Who knows, but it would be pretty easy to do, just don't tell them your name. I myself can't imagine He was working in a vacuum. Other people knew what he was doing and have never been named our outted so just submit through them and we have perfect places to pass your "tainted" books, CLINK, Pedegree, Ebay, etc. Actually I now wonder every time I see a trimmed book whether it is an old trim job or and experiment of a new technique ... Remember, post Ewert, CGC has missed at least one resub of a trimmed Ewert book ...

 

Greg

 

I think a lot of what you're saying is conjecture. I really don't think any of the dealers you mention were aware of what he was doing.

 

And be aware that trimming has been going on forever. A couple of restorers even used it as part of their process in the '70s and early '80s before people decided it was a bad thing for the books. Jason's number of trimmed books is tiny compared to what else is out there.

[Matt Nelson]

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

 

They kicked Jason Ewart out of the hobby. Is that not a police action?

 

Absolutely. And that's one of the problems here. It's given CGC a misleading image that I think leads to some of the arguements here on the boards.

 

To be clear, they didn't kick him out of the hobby. They just said that he couldn't submit anymore. He's free to do what he wants otherwise, as comic-keys clearly does. Is he still selling? I haven't seen or heard anything that would lead me to believe that he is.

 

In cards the grading companies constantly return invoices full of trimmed cards. They don't ban anybody. What happens is that submittor is flagged, so future submissions are looked upon with a suspicious eye.

[qualitycomix]

[quote

 

I think a lot of what you're saying is conjecture. I really don't think any of the dealers you mention were aware of what he was doing.

 

And be aware that trimming has been going on forever. A couple of restorers even used it as part of their process in the '70s and early '80s before people decided it was a bad thing for the books. Jason's number of trimmed books is tiny compared to what else is out there.

 

So your opinion is that Jason's trimmed books are just the tip of the iceberg even now?

 

Brent

[Matt Nelson]

Quick question-

Now that CGC is aware of the Sensation having its covers switched,not once but twice-have they called for it to be returned? Have they suspended the account of the person who submitted it?Done anything besides give a mumbo-jumbo explanation of why a dissassembled book was given a blue label?

 

Is this a rhetorical question? CGC doesn't view swapping the covers back the way they were as restoration. Why would they ask for the book back or suspend the submitter? I'm not saying I agree with CGC's stance on whether the book was "restored" or not, but I can't imagine them suspending a submitter because of that book. In my mind, there's a big difference between swapping the covers back the way they were and trimming a book.

 

If CGC suspended the submittor, wouldn't that be considering "policing" the hobby?

 

No.It would be punishing someone for trying to slip a book past them.Its policing their own backyard.

 

 

Besides which,and totally seperate from CGC,I would hope that a reputable restoration company would not continue to do business with people that sell restored books unrestored.What are your thoughts on this?

 

To me punishing someone who tries to slip books past them would be to keep taking their business, but be extra cautious when grading their books. If you don't, they simply go to the other grading company, or start selling raw, or submit under a different name.

 

I'm not saying they should throw a few purples in for good measure now and then, but the fact that the submittor has been flagged just means that he stands a greater chance of getting restored grades. That in itself is punishment.

 

I understand that CGC continuing to grade this person's books stands the risk of another one slipping through. Given the climate in comics (as opposed to cards and coins), there is a tremendous backlash when things like this are discovered. It probably contributes to CGC's decision to ban, so maybe it doesn't happen again. Since these things tend to get much less attention in the other fields, there is less danger to the grading company to continue grading for that submittor.

 

So I guess CGC is somewhat coerced into policing the hobby, maybe?

[Matt Nelson]

Besides which,and totally seperate from CGC,I would hope that a reputable restoration company would not continue to do business with people that sell restored books unrestored.What are your thoughts on this?

 

Gosh, since you consider pressing to be restoration, I guess that means I'd have to stop doing business with myself!

[Matt Nelson]

[quote

 

I think a lot of what you're saying is conjecture. I really don't think any of the dealers you mention were aware of what he was doing.

 

And be aware that trimming has been going on forever. A couple of restorers even used it as part of their process in the '70s and early '80s before people decided it was a bad thing for the books. Jason's number of trimmed books is tiny compared to what else is out there.

 

So your opinion is that Jason's trimmed books are just the tip of the iceberg even now?

 

Brent

 

The tip of what iceburg? That there will be a mountain of trimmed books getting through? No, because the vast majority of these books are obvious to CGC. You wouldn't believe the number of trimmed books I see floating around. But the issue here involves the ones that are so good CGC has to be on their toes to spot it. And that number is very small in my opinion. The tip of an ice cube.

[Red Hook]

It comes with the territory of setting yourself up as an "authority" on grading, pedigree designation and what and what does not constitute restoration.

 

Expecting the public to take you seriously in those areas, but then denying that you have any accountability or responsibility when it comes to serving as a watchdog....seems unrealistic. CGC's message is pretty garbled right now.

 

And secondly, do you Matt, know how many Ewert trimmed books got through? That's another bit of info lost in the fog.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'm not saying they should throw a few purples in for good measure now and then, but the fact that the submittor has been flagged just means that he stands a greater chance of getting lower or restored grades. That in itself is punishment.

 

So, would this be a break with the 'standard practice' of the graders never knowing whose book is lying in front of them?

[Matt Nelson]

It comes with the territory of setting yourself up as an "authority" on grading, pedigree designation and what and what does not constitute restoration.

 

Expecting the public to take you seriously in those areas, but then denying that you have any accountability or responsibility when it comes being more of a watchdog....seems unrealistic. CGC's message is pretty garbled right now.

 

Well maybe CGC needs to post some more information regarding their definition of restoration, and steps they're taking to assure accurate grading. They're working on a new website right now...maybe some of these things will be on it.

[Ze-man]

Besides which,and totally seperate from CGC,I would hope that a reputable restoration company would not continue to do business with people that sell restored books unrestored.What are your thoughts on this?

 

Gosh, since you consider pressing to be restoration, I guess that means I'd have to stop doing business with myself!

 

No need for all that Matt , just start telling the people buying your books they were pressed!

 

See how easy it is!!!

 

 

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Well maybe CGC needs to post some more information regarding their definition of restoration.

 

Eureka!

 

Any chance you would have the clout to get them to do this?

 

Because the chorus that's come from here in recent months doesn't appear to have been heard.

[Matt Nelson]

I'm not saying they should throw a few purples in for good measure now and then, but the fact that the submittor has been flagged just means that he stands a greater chance of getting lower or restored grades. That in itself is punishment.

 

So, would this be a break with the 'standard practice' of the graders never knowing whose book is lying in front of them?

 

If you're a grading company, and more than one or maybe two trimmed books pop up on one invoice, I think you'd pull the name up.

 

By no means am I saying I know what goes on in CGC's grading room. I do not. But if they grade an invoice that in the end looks suspicious, they could simply review those books afterwards by sending them back to Chris for a second restoration check. This doesn't affect the books' grades in any way, but it assures that CGC is being as thorough as possible.

[Red Hook]

Nothing personal Matt, but I still find it odd that we're getting this conjecture, information and insight from a third party restoration expert and not from CGC themselves. They've got some serious pr issues to work out.

 

B

[Matt Nelson]

Well maybe CGC needs to post some more information regarding their definition of restoration.

 

Eureka!

 

Any chance you would have the clout to get them to do this?

 

Because the chorus that's come from here in recent months doesn't appear to have been heard.

 

I think you guys are heard loud and clear! I'll certainly put a word in with Steve.

 

I'm actually in the process of revamping my website, and there's going to be much more information regarding pressing, conservation, restoration, values, etc. I am a big advocate of educating the collectors, particularly the new ones, and restoration is a very complex issue that needs lots of explaining.

[Red Hook]

[Matt Nelson]

Nothing personal Matt, but I still find it odd that we're getting this conjecture, information and insight from a third party restoration expert and not from CGC themselves. They've got some serious pr issues to work out.

 

B

 

These are just my thoughts. I like CGC, and their existence helps my business, I don't deny that. I also think they are a positive thing in this hobby despite the bumps and bruises, so I have no problem supporting them.

 

And I do think these matters directly or indirectly affect me, since the issue is all about what I do for a living. So I do feel it's important for me to put my two cents in.