Manufactured Gold

[Foolkiller]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

[qualitycomix]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

So your solution for guys like Kenny, instead of changing the mindset within the hobby to move towards disclosure, is to stop collecting the high grade books that he wants to collect?

[Foolkiller]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

So your solution for guys like Kenny, instead of changing the mindset within the hobby to move towards disclosure, is to stop collecting the high grade books that he wants to collect?

 

Think about the things you can actually control Brent. The pressing boat has sailed. Let's say you got all this disclosure you are advocating. Guess what, you'd still have thousands and thousands and thousands of pressed books that would become part of your collection after this "disclosure" became mandatory.

 

What's the solution for people so clearly affected by pressing? Don't buy those books. End of problem.

[Ze-man]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

Way ahead of you Brian, but thnx for the free advice.

 

It was free wasn't it?

 

Ze-

[qualitycomix]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

So your solution for guys like Kenny, instead of changing the mindset within the hobby to move towards disclosure, is to stop collecting the high grade books that he wants to collect?

 

Think about the things you can actually control Brent. The pressing boat has sailed. Let's say you got all this disclosure you are advocating. Guess what, you'd still have thousands and thousands and thousands of pressed books that would become part of your collection after this "disclosure" became mandatory.

 

What's the solution for people so clearly affected by pressing? Don't buy those books. End of problem.

 

I could say the exact same thing about Ewert's trimmed books, couldn't I? The trimming boat has sailed as well, and you can't put humpty dumpty back together again.

[Foolkiller]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

Way ahead of you Brian, but thnx for the free advice.

 

It was free wasn't it?

 

Ze-

 

Bill is in the mail. I already knew you were shifting out of HG -- and so I guess my point is, for those so upset about it, my point is, pressing has been going on, and even if it stopped today, people would have no idea on what they were buying or weren't buying because nobody is identifying pressed books as pressed.

 

But if you love high grade, you can work for advocating disclosure, but you have to accept you will have pressed books in your collection whether you know it or not -- and in the post disclosure world, the pressing would continue, and people would get them through third parties who would claim they had no idea that pressing had ever been done. Even though they were in fact pressed, and most people won't be able to detect pressing, so why worry if you disclose or don't.

 

If I was bothered by it, I'd be out of high grade collecting... but I accept pressing for what it is.

[Foolkiller]

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important. It is how I feel, even if I might be the minority.

 

Kenny, you'd have to rail against people working in the investment world, lots of area of the corporate world, and the media -- all far more influential than people in the comic world.

 

The "pressing" crowd can't dictate what's important to you as an individual. If you don't like pressed comics, I think the alternative is to not to collect high grade at this stage...

 

So your solution for guys like Kenny, instead of changing the mindset within the hobby to move towards disclosure, is to stop collecting the high grade books that he wants to collect?

 

Think about the things you can actually control Brent. The pressing boat has sailed. Let's say you got all this disclosure you are advocating. Guess what, you'd still have thousands and thousands and thousands of pressed books that would become part of your collection after this "disclosure" became mandatory.

 

What's the solution for people so clearly affected by pressing? Don't buy those books. End of problem.

 

I could say the exact same thing about Ewert's trimmed books, couldn't I? The trimming boat has sailed as well, and you can't put humpty dumpty back together again.

 

Difference is that trimming, even if not always detected, is detectable.

 

And the trimming boat is different in that there's not acceptance of the practice by a lot of collectors. Pressing isn't the same as trimming and isn't viewed the same.

 

And again, I would think if you are bothered by Ewert, and bothered by pressing, that you have no more faith in CGC -- there's one solution, don't buy slabs, don't submit, support a new grading company that you think can handle it better. I'm not sure if it will ever come about... but perhaps it will.

[Scheradon]

Whatever the reason they use it, the point is that the limited facts do not bear it out. Whether that means the seller and the person on the message board both have a mistaken belief in what pressing will do to the resale value of a book, I don't know. I suspect that fear of the "unknown" is a good part of why some sellers don't disclose though.

 

Scott, I encourage you to research this issue further. Having followed a large number of auctions from Spectre52, I am of the opinion that said seller achieves less-than-GPA average prices for substantially more than half his high grade books. And this is with merely scattered knowledge that said seller works on the books he sells. I differ in opinion from you, and suspect that if pressing and non-disassembly cleaning were explicitly disclosed for books being auctioned on a routine basis, the price differential between "virgin" and "worked on" books would be readily apparent.

 

And here again, is a chance to think outside the box. I think the following is a credible scenario....

 

1. Matt Nelson (as an example only) presses a book and offers it for sale.

2. In his auction, he discloses the fact that he himself did the work and he offers a 100% lifetime

guarantee on his work. He also carefully explains that the book was originally a toughly graded

9.4 and he applied some gentle localized pressing to help it reach it's current 9.6 grade.

3. The buyers looking at his auction receive all the available info on the book, are comfortable

bidding on the book, are assured that the work was done by a leading expert....and the book

returns a comfortable profit to Matt.

 

Result? Matt's happy. The buyer is happy. The "vast minority" who wish not to add pressed books to their collections can safely pass the auction by. The hobby is a better place for a more open transaction. And the blocks have been knocked out from under any conspiracy theories.

 

Unless there is an attempt at a real solution, I don't think this controversy is going away soon.

 

 

Seems so easy, makes you wonder why it's not happening this way

[qualitycomix]

Difference is that trimming, even if not always detected, is detectable.

 

And the trimming boat is different in that there's not acceptance of the practice by a lot of collectors. Pressing isn't the same as trimming and isn't viewed the same.

 

And again, I would think if you are bothered by Ewert, and bothered by pressing, that you have no more faith in CGC -- there's one solution, don't buy slabs, don't submit, support a new grading company that you think can handle it better. I'm not sure if it will ever come about... but perhaps it will.

 

It has nothing to do with faith in CGC. No company will be perfect, I live in the real world. The issue here is should we give up and accept that people will do whatever it takes to make a buck and just live with it if we are going to buy high grade books or work with the community to see a brighter future. The comics market is just now starting to mature. To accept the status quo at this stage is premature, regardless of how many pressed books there are out there.

 

I think you're a pragmatist at heart, am I right? I stand in the middle, attempt to reconcile my idealism with the practical realities of this world.

[Monstro]

first a few telling quotable from earlier in this thread:

 

“the point i'm making is that, if someone plans to avoid dealers who may sell pressed books, then that person will run out of people to buy from.”

 

“in the meantime it's becoming impossible to tell the rare hg survivor from yesterday's benchworked beauty.”

 

my thoughts:

if a buyer is thinking about a comic on cl, ebay, ect. and the seller discloses the fact that it’s been pressed but is still in a blue label. then it’s my opinion that only a very small percentage of collectors/dealers would not buy the book.

on the other hand if cgc begin to put notation on the labels disclosing pressing. then i believe pressed books could suffer the same fate as plods

[THE_BEYONDER]

Please don't ask us to adopt your defeatist attitude. You want to give up & surrender the hobby to the greed mongers.....go ahead. While you're at it, feel free to get out of the way of those of us who are unwilling to.

[Foolkiller]

Please don't ask us to adopt your defeatist attitude. You want to give up & surrender the hobby to the greed mongers.....go ahead. While you're at it, feel free to get out of the way of those of us who are unwilling to.

 

You know what Chris STFU -- that's honestly what'd you'd be best at. Putting you on ignore right now. You're all fluff and no substance.

[batman_fan]

I think I have found an acceptable solution to the pressing, trimming, disassembly, resto removal resub game. I stopped buying books completely, raw or graded except brand new books (yeah I know, they are pressed becuase they are stacked in a box blah blah blah ...), period, end of the story. I have been collecting since 1972 non-stop and I think now is a perfect time to take a pause and ponder what to do going forward which I am still trying to decide.

 

As for prices realized for books with tainted pasts, Hey Mark, how is the sale of that GA Detective you bought from Heritage going, getting a ton of offer? What, no offers? Try re-posting the auction without disclosing its history and see if it helps.

 

Please note for the pinheads out there, my comment to Mark was made in a sarcastic tone, but that is an example of where disclosure certainly has not drug the masses out to throw money at Mark for the book.

[Foolkiller]

I think I have found an acceptable solution to the pressing, trimming, disassembly, resto removal resub game. I stopped buying books completely, raw or graded except brand new books (yeah I know, they are pressed becuase they are stacked in a box blah blah blah ...), period, end of the story. I have been collecting since 1972 non-stop and I think now is a perfect time to take a pause and ponder what to do going forward which I am still trying to decide.

 

As for prices realized for books with tainted pasts, Hey Mark, how is the sale of that GA Detective you bought from Heritage going, getting a ton of offer? What, no offers? Try re-posting the auction without disclosing its history and see if it helps.

 

Please note for the pinheads out there, my comment to Mark was made in a sarcastic tone, but that is an example of where disclosure certainly has not drug the masses out to throw money at Mark for the book.

 

I don't think it's as simple as disclosure/non disclosure = instant sales.

 

There are obviously people who have strong feelings on both sides of the aisle. But as I said before, the way to be proven right or wrong is for dealers to disclose in at least some of their auctions pressing work -- if the community accepts it, great, and if not, well fine too... we'll have to move to how the problem gets solved. But this debate will rage on, and I'm encouraging dealers to disclose because I think the pressing will not hurt them overall.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Please don't ask us to adopt your defeatist attitude. You want to give up & surrender the hobby to the greed mongers.....go ahead. While you're at it, feel free to get out of the way of those of us who are unwilling to.

 

You know what Chris STFU -- that's honestly what'd you'd be best at. Putting you on ignore right now. You're all fluff and no substance.

 

[esquirecomics]

As for prices realized for books with tainted pasts, Hey Mark, how is the sale of that GA Detective you bought from Heritage going, getting a ton of offer? What, no offers? Try re-posting the auction without disclosing its history and see if it helps.

 

Please note for the pinheads out there, my comment to Mark was made in a sarcastic tone, but that is an example of where disclosure certainly has not drug the masses out to throw money at Mark for the book.

 

First, let me say I will readily admit I paid too much for that book at the time EVEN if the book had not been manipulated and the grade as is was original.

 

That being said, not one offer. Nada. Zip.

 

And all reasonable offers are always considered. The listed price is just that, a listed initial asking price. Anyone want the book for what I paid for it one or two years ago?

 

P.S. I understood your point and recognized the sarcasm without problem.

[esquirecomics]

I'm just going to say this: Wouldn't this debate a heckuva lot easier if you disclosed and ended the debate? If the sales data available says disclosure of pressing does not really impact sales, why not do it and end the entire controversey and take the teeth out of the other side's argument.

 

I've maintained that it doesn't matter to most whether a book is pressed or not.

 

Nor do I feel it should be "mandatory" but I think it could be ended Matt if say, you started disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed. Then if the books have done just as well, it certainly would force the "disclosure" crew to be satisfied, and you would have the evidence that indicates that pressing has little impact on most collectors buying habits.

 

 

Matt?

[Aman619]

which book?

[esquirecomics]

The truth is, if people weren't spending crazy multiples for .2 differences in grades, few people would even care about a .2 or even .4 bump on a resub. But this irrational (to me, anyway) willingness to pay 4X 9.2 price for a 9.4 that looks like a soft 9.4 is not the fault of CGC. It's the fault of label chasers who want to own the highest graded copy. Granted, I firmly believe that it's their right to spend their money however they want. But I don't believe their willingness to pay crazy multiples necessarily justifies them in placing such extreme reliance on CGC in having day-to-day 100% consistency on something as subjective as grading comics. The hyper-multiples being paid are, I believe, at times the result of the buyers' misunderstanding of just how reliable CGC (or really anyone else) is at grading every comic book consistently. And given the multiples being paid, it is human nature for people who think that a book was graded too harshly to crack it and send it back in for a regrade. The system and the market are set up that way, and all the hand-wringing in the world isn't going to change that.

 

Now, this isn't to say that the worst of the value-squeezing practices are ok. They're not. The Sensation we saw in this thread that was disassembled should be noted as such on the label. I'm no fan of the green or purple labels and so I won't advocate for the book to be in a particular color label, but the fact that it was disassembled and then reassembled (and that's the key here) should be disclosed because that is something that virtually everyone considers "disclosure-worthy," whether it meets any one particular definition of "restoration" or not.

 

Good points.

[esquirecomics]

Geez, how scary is this - I just agreed to back to back points from FK and FFB!!!