HULK #181 sells for $18k

[Bronty]

I don't get the obsession with this book ... or Wolverine for that matter.

How many heroes are the best at what they do? Just one, well maybe not...

 

If you mean being the best at being retconned, mauled, made into a shadow of a a great character and generally being overused, then use, Wolvie is the best at what he does.

 

As has been mentioned many times before, the puny Modern market has absolutely NOTHING to do with the ultra-high-grade vintage comic market, the majority of which likely haven't read a new comic in 15-20 years.

But no one cares what happens in the Modern world, and most view the last 8-10 years all as one big What If issue.

 

can't argue with that. I've made like 3 or 4 comic purchases in 7 years now. And yet the two books I think about buying back are H181 and ASM129.

 

I haven't read a modern in at least 8 and possibly 10 years. I'm sure many others are in the same boat.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and if examples are forthcoming, I give you Batman #8 vs. Batman #9

 

Batman #8 is a predominantly red cover. It has 47 Universal copies on the census.

 

There are no copies above 9.0, at which there are 2. There are 7 at 8.0 or better, which I think is a fair cutoff for "high grade."

 

Batman #9 is about as solid a black cover as it gets in the Golden Age. You'd probably have to go all the way to Solar #10 to find a cover with more black per square inch. It has 48 copies in Universal on the census.

 

It has 2 copies at 9.4, 1 in 9.2, and 11 in VF or better.

 

Yes, I understand that this is a small sample...but, just using these two, it's clear which one is "tougher in high grade" (and it's not the all black covered one.)

[BronzeBruce13]

The color covers between X-Men #94 and Hulk #181 have nothing to do with their differences in 9.8. Different colors do not attract more or less physical wear.

 

Aside from the warehouse find, the busy-ness of artwork along the spine likely has more to do with it. Hulk #181 is a touch busier, which will hide a little better those all important tiny color breakers, plus the non-color breakers, that make or break a 9.8.

 

Not so according to a forumite who was a veteran in the print business (possibly our own DiceX, not sure?) and posted on the subject. If memory serves, he claimed that ink quality could vary and cited that "black" and/or "near black" inks commonly used in comic printing were (often) all the other color leftovers mixed together. For whatever exact reason (I can't recall) he stated that "fake black" ink mixtures were not as stable and durable.

 

"Black covers are tougher in high grade" is a myth. It's a myth that has since trickled down to any "dark" color, and, now, any "solid" color, across the spectrum.

 

Now, while I know about the "leftover ink" argument, that doesn't mean it happened all the time, and it would take extensive analysis...analysis that is probably not possible...to prove that argument. Was FF #112 printed with this "less durable" ink? How about Defenders #2? Tomb of Dracula #2? As well, ink quality varied to such an extent that blanket observations about any color cannot be made.

 

It CERTAINLY doesn't cover books like X-Men #94, which is green.

 

And it's certainly not true for the "high quality" pieces of printing masterworks that have been printed since the early 90's.

 

The reality is simple: wear is more visible in solid expanses of printed paper. When there is more linework, wear becomes harder to see.

 

That doesn't mean that it isn't there.

 

Of course, people will cite the "census", but CGC graders are just as susceptible to this myth as anyone else. I've seen books graded with 1/4" color breaking cover creases at 9.8..because those color breakers were on the white back cover, and thus were missed.

 

Some will respond with "well, it's the appearance that matters, and if it's not easy to see, it doesn't count", to which I say that's fine, but then we had better let everyone know that books aren't judged by how much wear they actually have, but how that wear APPEARS on the book.

 

Call me a kook, I understand that I'm in a minority, and I understand that many of you will think I'm a stupid fool for this, and I'm ok with that.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of seeing everyone and their brother tout endless "dark covered books" as "TOUGH IN HIGH GRADE!!!!!!" when that's simply not true any more than other-colored books of the same quality and era.

 

 

I don't personally have enough "experience with ink" and its subtleties to be an expert, so I can only speculate on some of your statements. I was just relaying what an "expert" had claimed about the topic.

 

I am in agreement with you regarding the assertion that larger areas of color that have the same level of damage as "busier" designed/Illustrated covers give the appearance of "less" disruption... hence, less damage. As a result, grading could be influenced by that situation.

 

Also... I seem to recall seeing varying darkness ranges with the cover of XM 94. Some were visibly lighter and "more green"... and then others were very dark, flirting with black. We don't know if that "Darker Green", even in its "mostly green" stage, was not a mixture of some leftover inks vs. some virgin unmixed ink. I realize all inks are mixed, I'm referring to the undisturbed, original manufactured ink color. I don't know if inks need to be mixed a certain length of time to be "more" stable or not... but I'm throwing that out there for consideration. Hopefully, other experts can add their knowledge.

 

On that note still, could my observation that some covers looked "more black" than green be a result of more "darker mix" or "true black" ink being added during the print run on the press? Just a thought.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond, Bruce, and I know you have far more experience than I do with super high grade Bronze books in hand. I appreciate you not dismissing my comments out of hand.

 

You are 100% correct on the differing shades of green, and this seems to be especially prevalent, to my eyes, on later run Bronze, as printers looked for ever cheaper ways to print comics during a tough time economically. Wide gradations of colors exist on many books from this era, as more and more books were printed while the tanks were "running on fumes", so to speak.

 

This is a lot like identifying early and late die state (oh, Seanfingh's gonna crucify me for this) coins. As the dies are used, they wear down, and the strike on the planchet is not as sharp. I think the analogy works here, too. When you have a "early run" batch, the colors are much deeper and richer, while late run books are much lighter. Of course, the areas that would be most affected would be the darkest areas, while lighter areas such as yellows, light blues and light shaded areas would not be as subject to this phenomenon.

 

My X-Men #94s are definitely across the range in that regard.

 

As well...the quality of the paper, and it's ability to accept ink, is also a major factor. Solar #10, an all black cover, fingerprints easily...but because of the high quality glossy cardboard paper used, the fingerprints are very easily wiped away, with no "polish" marks left behind. Bone, on the other hand, printed at the exact same time on cheap, cheap paper, was also susceptible to the same fingerprinting, and worse, smudging, because the paper didn't "take" the ink as well as Solar #10 did. And, if you try to wipe them off, you get a shiny "polish" area, again because of the low quality paper.

[DarkKnightReturns]

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Quiet, n00b!

 

[DarkKnightReturns]

 

Quiet, n00b!

 

 

Whoa you startled me. All that ink talk was making me sleepy. There were some neat thoughts in there. I'd like to hear from the ink expert about the mixed blacks.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Rich_Henn, if I'm not off my rocker, has massive amounts of printing experience....

[RockMyAmadeus]

And if you think ink talk is boring, you should listen to the coinees go on about Overton 110 this, and late die state that, and R7 this....

 

If you don't live for that kind of minutiae, it'll bore you to tears.

 

Thank God I live for minutiae.

 

[DarkKnightReturns]

And if you think ink talk is boring, you should listen to the coinees go on about Overton 110 this, and late die state that, and R7 this....

 

If you don't live for that kind of minutiae, it'll bore you to tears.

 

Thank God I live for minutiae.

 

 

Get over to Worthless Moderns and answer my question than

[MR.COMICBOOK]

I think 9.8 181's have peaked and settled too.

 

So why are there so many more Hulk 181's in 9.8 than X-men 94's in 9.8?

 

Is X-94 a tougher book because of darker colors in the cover? Or production errors?

 

 

Not sure what you mean Dek???... what does one have to do with the other in regards to my opinion about it's market status? 9.8 181 supply has exploded over the past 3 years. When I sold my 2nd copy around 3 years ago, I think there was only 4 or 5 tops in the census... now its 30ish.

 

That aside... yes, I think XM 94 is tougher in part because of the darker cover.

 

 

 

I mean that ok, maybe Hulk 181 has peaked due to increasing supply, but why is the supply of X-94 not increasing at the same rate. I just found it odd, because both issues have been hoarded and protected for a long time

 

 

My opinion is the 94 while desirable does not have the same appeal of a true first appearence. All the characters appear in GSX 1 which I'm surprised has not moved in the last 3 years. X-Men 94 is incredibly hard to get in high grade because of the dep green cover, but when you look at collectibility, it's really second appearances. i had a 181 CGC 9.8 and sold it, i had one of twelve and quickly realized more were turning up each month. I'm convinced the same will be now occur in Sa, just look at the sick numbers HG SA ASM are getting. I mean 52k for a 9.6 ASM #14. That's why I'm focusing on GA. My

PLUS the X-men are not the big players they once were, fading popularity other then Wovlerine, most of the characters who made appearances in GSX 1 AND X-94 are b-characters in the marvel universe.Take Wolverine out of the X-men books and sales will plumet. a shame as at one time it was a cornerstone franchise.

[Bronty]

xmen are plummeting?? Good riddance! Happy dance!! (freakin' overrated characters in the first place )

[COI]

"Black covers are tougher in high grade" is a myth. It's a myth that has since trickled down to any "dark" color, and, now, any "solid" color, across the spectrum.

 

I actually started a thread making this point years ago, but it got shot down with all this ink talk.

 

I blame ASM #28 for this myth. It's a high profile example of a black cover book which does happen to be tougher in grade and commands a premium as a result, so I think a lot of people just took the ball and ran with it, perhaps as a means of attaching premiums to certain books. As you said, "black covers are tougher in grade" became "dark covers are tougher in grade".

 

Of course, people will cite the "census", but CGC graders are just as susceptible to this myth as anyone else. I've seen books graded with 1/4" color breaking cover creases at 9.8..because those color breakers were on the white back cover, and thus were missed.

 

If true, it's quite troubling that CGC can be so easily foiled by white covers, especially on a book like GSX 1 where the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 is several thousand dollars.

[Chespirito]

xmen are plummeting?? Good riddance! Happy dance!! (freakin' overrated characters in the first place )

 

Well then you got to look at X men from another angle....Hombres X Uno...first time showing this off, one of a kind, south of the border 60s fun....

[COI]

Wow, I'm a little slow. I just checked the census numbers on Hulk 181 and I'm shocked, not just at the number of 9.8s, but the fact that there are 132 9.6s. Granted, there's going to be overlap (some of those 9.6s are 9.8s now), but perception is everything, and I have to wonder how long 181 prices can sustain.

 

A 6K book with 132 copies on the census just doesn't seem right. I'm going to wait another 5 years before buying a copy.

[kc120us]

xmen are plummeting?? Good riddance! Happy dance!! (freakin' overrated characters in the first place )

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

But no one cares what happens in the Modern world, and most view the last 8-10 years all as one big What If issue.

 

I view the last 20 years as one big What If issue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"Black covers are tougher in high grade" is a myth. It's a myth that has since trickled down to any "dark" color, and, now, any "solid" color, across the spectrum.

 

I actually started a thread making this point years ago, but it got shot down with all this ink talk.

 

It does not surprise me that you and I would be on the same page on this.

 

I blame ASM #28 for this myth. It's a high profile example of a black cover book which does happen to be tougher in grade and commands a premium as a result, so I think a lot of people just took the ball and ran with it, perhaps as a means of attaching premiums to certain books. As you said, "black covers are tougher in grade" became "dark covers are tougher in grade".

 

Bingo.

 

ASM #28 is what started this nonsense. And, I suspect the census doesn't even accurately reflect the story for #27, 29, etc.

 

Now, it's become a "selling point" to anyone who thinks that "Oooo! Amazing Spiderman #36 (vol 2) is an ALL BLACK cover! OOOO! It's RARE in high grade!!!!!"

 

Yeah.

 

Check again.

 

I would not be surprised to find out that, as a percentage of print run, Spidey #36 is the highest graded and highest submitted book of all time (although that title would probably go to Walking Dead #1, with 333 copies on a reported 6500 printrun.)

 

There are a staggering 3,261 copies on the census, with an unbelievable 92% in 9.4 or better...all on a print run of about 80,000 copies. It is, in fact, the 7th most submitted book of all time.

 

Yeah. It's TOTALLY "hard to find in high grade because of that all black cover."

 

Of course, people will cite the "census", but CGC graders are just as susceptible to this myth as anyone else. I've seen books graded with 1/4" color breaking cover creases at 9.8..because those color breakers were on the white back cover, and thus were missed.

 

If true, it's quite troubling that CGC can be so easily foiled by white covers, especially on a book like GSX 1 where the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 is several thousand dollars.

 

I wouldn't characterize it as "easily foiled"...I'd just say they're subject to the same type of "color bias" as others. I had a Spidey #312 get a 9.8 that had a full 1/4" CREASE...not just a stress mark, but a full on crease, with high ridge, low valley, the works...but because the cover is so busy, either it didn't get noticed, or, more likely, it DID get noticed, and was ignored as a 9.8 deal breaker.

 

But...if the same exact flaw, with the same exact dimensions, were in a solid colored portion of color, light OR dark, the deal's off. I'm nearly certain of it. And that just because the flaw is simply more obvious in a solid color than in "busy artwork."

[tth2]

Wow, I'm a little slow. I just checked the census numbers on Hulk 181 and I'm shocked, not just at the number of 9.8s, but the fact that there are 132 9.6s. Granted, there's going to be overlap (some of those 9.6s are 9.8s now), but perception is everything, and I have to wonder how long 181 prices can sustain.

 

A 6K book with 132 copies on the census just doesn't seem right. I'm going to wait another 5 years before buying a copy.

President Kennedy was just shot in Dallas!!!

 

[dekeuk]

 

 

But no one cares what happens in the Modern world, and most view the last 8-10 years all as one big What If issue.

 

And Bruce Wayne IS Batman

 

Always has been and ALWAYS will be