NFS

[comicartcom]

It appears that we all have personal meanings and rules for NFS...I believe it happens to be the default setting on CAF in manage galleries. So it seems kind of ambiguous, this NFS ...B/c to some it means 'make me a crazy offer so I can make a ton of money' and others 'It's really not for sale...at this time' and others 'hmmm, maybe I can get enough to buy that sweet piece...' or 'You need to wow me b/c I love this piece and I think you need to double the price I paid 8 months ago' and many, many other meanings. When someone types 'NFS, REALLY' or 'NFS I MEAN IT', well I think we all know what to do, there is no question...( wait a few years )

 

Perhaps, but telling someone, who is most likely new and uneducated in the hobby to "make a knock my socks off offer" is even more vague and ambiguous than NFS could ever be.

 

I wouldn't get mad if a novice, for whatever reason offered something on a NFS piece that wasn't all that close to spectacular. (If a dealer did though, I'd tell others and call him a bad name or something no big deal, some of the OA dealers are such #$%&ers). Now there is a for sale section, but I state almost anything is up for sale/trade...you never, ever, know. Anyway, there are tons of clueless people out there who are beginning, may not know what all you guys know etc., give them a break, they don't know what they're doing...yet. Let's not come across as condescending snobs so much.

 

THANK you!

 

I couldn't agree more. There is no need to hide such information from a buyer you are leading on (which telling them "make an offer" for a piece marked NFS most assuredly is). Doing so only helps them to gain valuable knowledge and will prevent them from making lowball offers to begin with. But if you are simply of the kind who can't be bothered with such, simply say "sorry, it's not for sale" and leave it at that. There's no wasted time, lowball offers, or hurt egos.

 

I also agree that dealers are to be held to a different standard, as they are most likely not a noephyte collector and should have some understanding of market values and the like.

 

I too, am anti-'make offer'...I guess it's ok if you are a dealer type trying to make cash...but I asked my brother, and he agrees...and to us, there is something 'not right' about it, there is some toying there...in our humble opinion...(there are exceptions though, ioho, but were are speaking in general)...

 

No, it's not okay for dealers to play that kind of game, anymore than it is for a personal collector on CAF. Dealers who do such things are generally frowned upon and with very good reason.

 

Hate to sound cliche', people, but your mom was right: Honesty is the best policy.

 

Oh My God.. it's engulfing the planet

 

[Mighty Hal]

One other option (and I've seen it used a few times): If a buyer is interested in a NFS item, they can comment on CAF: "If this ever comes up for sale, please contact me".

 

I don't know if this actually works but I think it's worth a shot.

[easyt63]

Wow, this thread really took off, man. Ok let me add my thoughts since I know you all are dying to hear them:

 

I think both parties are right to a certain degree, although one side has expressed their opinions on the other sides opinions a little negatively.

 

So I think in a perfect world we would all love it if a owner would come right up front and tell you what price they think would get them to part with it, but seriously, if your not thinking of selling it you probably have no idea what you would sell it for. You may think of a price, sell the piece and then have "sellers remorse." I would absolutely hate that. If I ever got an offer for something in my gallery marked NFS (which I agree, it is the default setting on CAF) I really wouldn't know where to start with a price. Are there things in my CAF I would sell, sure, but not many anymore.

 

We all know that your not going to get most sellers that have an item marked NFS to just up and tell you how much they would sell it for. I really do believe that to be a fact. If they do then wow, thats awesome, saves you a headache and stress. Even if you feel they SHOULD do this, its not going to make it actually happen, sorry. Communication is key, if you say "hey I love the piece, i have to admit I have no idea what you paid for it or what its worth, but I can offer xxxx for it" then you are being upfront and honest, opening the door for some solid and informative communication. If the owner responds "Im sorry, thats to low" or "it would take a lot more than that to get me to sell," then you can offer your apologies and either offer as much as you can, tell them you would really like to work this out, or something.

 

Getting to my point, the reality is most owners are not going to pony up a price on a NFS item right out of the gate (did you like that, "pony" "out of the gate," I thought it was pretty good). But good communication will probably get you the piece 9 times out of 10, at a price at least you know was the bare minimum you could take it for, even if it was 4 times market value. Ya know?

[comicartfan]

[

On the flip side, what I can't stand and ALWAYS avoid is the person actively looking to sell a piece(s) and has "Offers" written all over the place....It's your piece, you're looking to sell it, list a price !!

 

Would you consider this practice to ALWAYS be out of bounds? Suppose a collector has a truly rare and/or significant piece of art that he decides to put on the market. He knows quite well what the "market value" is on a piece because he is a seasoned collector, but he also knows this piece is so good that buyers are going to come out of the woodwork and really reach for a special piece. Isn't "taking offers" about the same as a going to an auction house to try for top dollar but without having to pay the juice? I guess a lack of transparency might be an issue for some in this case (fabricating a high offer to try to maximize another collectors offer for example), but I've seen a lot of stellar pieces sold via "offers".

 

Scott Williams

 

This is MY rule for myself. I am not assuming, implying, insisting or demanding that anyone else should follow what I do....I can and will only speak for myself....I don't have the comfort level to "make an offer"....If something is priced, I can say yah or nay right away without going through the back and forth with a seller....Course, larger valued pieces are more prone to this type of dealing and I am certainly not in the same buying league as Hari or Dan or yourself....There are exceptions and I am generally speaking....

[wilypueo-migration]

Not sure if more opinions are really needed on this thread, but, after reading through most of the posts in it, I will hazard a contribution. For my part, I haven't been actively collecting for about 5-6 years now, but I generally get about an inquiry per month regarding the possibility of me selling various pieces in my modest CAF gallery, which are all marked with the default NFS. Though they have been all polite, not one of the inquiries was accompanied by an actual offer. While this does not offend or anger me in any way, I have stopped bothering even sending my stock reply, i.e. "Sorry not looking to sell at this time, will keep you in mind if I decide to sell." Of course, despite my general disinclination to sell, there is a price for which any particular piece could be obtained from me, but, bringing us to the reason for me leaving things tagged NFS, I am not interested in the headache of going through my collection and pricing them all out. Or, for that matter, pricing something out every time I get an inquiry, especially when I am not active in the hobby and only keeping casual tabs through lurking here and the comicart-L. It's just a lot easier to decide if I like a price versus coming up with a price I like.

 

I do agree with westform's post, however, in particular

There is no right answer here, and alot simply depends on who the parties are.

[Meeley Man]

If I don't wish to sell and you want to buy, you must make an offer that makes me consider changing my position

 

anything else is hogwash

 

If you don't wish to sell, then DON'T. It's real easy.

 

If you want to open the "offers gate," then be prepared to give that potential buyer the info they need to make a proper one. Otherwise, if you are lowballed, it's no one fault but your own. Period!

 

Anything else is hogwash.

 

Hi James,

 

I think the problem with what you're saying is the reality that almost everything that is NFS really does have the potential to leave the collection. In other words, almost everything does still have a price that'll make the owner scratch their head and feel they'd be crazy to pass on the offer. Thus, for an owner to tell a person "NFS for ANY price" is rare in practical terms.

 

Hi Hari,

 

That's fine, but if everything has the potential to be sold, then you must have some idea of what you would be willing to accept for a item listed "NFS" (a minimum acceptable amount, as it were). Otherwise, why would you lead on a potential buyer, in thinking there is any possibility they can get the item from you?

 

So, if we now accept the point that "everything has it's price," you (as the owner of said item) need to be forthright and honest to let that potential buyer know just where that price resides. A reply like this:

 

"Well, the piece isn't really for sale, but if you were to make a substancnial enough offer over the market value, which for this piece is $20,000, of say 25% or more, I might have to think about it. Otherwise, the piece will remain not for sale."

 

Now, you see? The buyer knows what will be expected of them, if they wish to obtain this piece. If they don't have that kind of funds, they go away. If they do, but can't make themselves live with such a price, they go away. No lowball offers. No wasted time. No bruised egos, who go onto message forums and make condesending remarks about that buyer's offer. All of that is avoided, just by being honest with the other person.

 

And again, as I've stated before, if you don't feel like doing that, then just say "sorry, the piece is not for sale at this time." It does say "NFS", after all.Why you'd want to play games with a person and lead them on, with "make an offer" and no way for them to know what you feel is "fair," is extrtemely inconsiderate and does more to foster lowball offers, than anything an inexperienced buyer could do.

 

I do have pieces that are NFS at ANY price (because of sentimental or strong nostalgiac attachment, and because my income keeps my collection still just a hobby), but crazy offers will make me change my mind on some pieces, especiallly the ones I have similar/duplicate pieces of.

 

Yes, but do you really expect most folks who inquire about NFS items to throw "crazy money offers" at you? Many who make such inquiries are new and /or inexperienced in the hobby and marketplace. They probably have little idea what the piece is worth, much less what more above that YOU will be expecting to part with it. This is why just being upfront with them, as I've outlined many times here, is simply the best way to go. If someone hates getting lowball offers on NFS items, there's a really easy way to stop them, by spreading your knowledge to those who do not yet have it. It really doesn't take a lot of effort for you and will benefit, both the buyer and the marketplace as a whole.

 

Here's my advice for you. If you see something you want that's NFS, try to figure out the market. You may even strike up a conversation with the seller first, asking about what the market is like for those types of pieces. Most collectors are nice and will email back and educate. Then, you can certainly (at the end) let him/her know that you'd be interested in a particular piece. Of course, by then, you may realize that you're out of the ballpark and can't afford it. But even this is fine, as you've learned the market and have not made an insulting or low-ball offer.

 

Happy hunting,

 

Hari

 

But Hari, that's not really any different from what I've been saying. To have this "friendly conversation" with with owner of the NFS piece, with the intent to gleen market value information, is pretty much the same thing, as having the owner just state how much over market it will cost to get the NFS item. The only difference is the amount of emails you will exchange.

 

And, if this thread is anything to go by, you couldn't be more wrong about how "nice" and forthcoming other collectors will be, even if you are just having that "friendly conversation." What I've seen here is tantamount to people saying "It's not MY job to educate neophyte collectors!" Nevermind they also complain about lowball offers and the like, knowing what I've said would make most of them disappear. It almost feels like they want to play to the ignorance of new/uneducated collectors, as a means to get those "crazy money offers." Or maybe they just like to tease people who aren't as "in the know" as they are? I don't know. But the attitude I've seen over the course of this... discussion... has done nothing to reflect a friendly and helpful nature of the experienced OA collector. It has, in fact, shown the opposite.

 

As I've been saying, if the owners would simply be upfront and honest with inquires on NFS items, there would be none of the things these owners complain happens from such inquiries. For that I was insulted, laughed at, and had a few trolls bring up things that had nothing to do with anything. Very enlightening, I think, about how "friendly" some of the biggest collectors of this hobby truly are.

[Meeley Man]

One other option (and I've seen it used a few times): If a buyer is interested in a NFS item, they can comment on CAF: "If this ever comes up for sale, please contact me".

 

I don't know if this actually works but I think it's worth a shot.

 

I can say that it does work. I left a comment on a piece that wasn't for sale at the time, but asked they keep me in mind if they do sell, and they contacted me some time later and I got it.

 

So, from my experience, I can say it is worth it. (thumbs u

[Bronty]

[quote=

 

Hari

 

But Hari, that's not really any different from what I've been saying. To have this "friendly conversation" with with owner of the NFS piece, .

 

No, you said it was morally abhorrent/ disgusting/ completely the seller's responsibility to price things out. Friendly conversations are fine but to say its morally abhorrent to list a piece as NFS is what started the dogpile by a bunch of people myself hopefully included that aren't typically the type to start dogpiles.

 

That and trying to cling to your slim thread of logic by saying your wonder woman tits piece wasn't for sale for a million bucks.

 

Of course striking up a friendly conversation is the best way to go, that just goes without saying. But that's not the part of your post people were taking issue with.

[malvin]

 

Hi Hari,

 

That's fine, but if everything has the potential to be sold, then you must have some idea of what you would be willing to accept for a item listed "NFS" (a minimum acceptable amount, as it were). Otherwise, why would you lead on a potential buyer, in thinking there is any possibility they can get the item from you?

 

So, if we now accept the point that "everything has it's price," you (as the owner of said item) need to be forthright and honest to let that potential buyer know just where that price resides. A reply like this:

 

"Well, the piece isn't really for sale, but if you were to make a substancnial enough offer over the market value, which for this piece is $20,000, of say 25% or more, I might have to think about it. Otherwise, the piece will remain not for sale."

 

Now, you see? The buyer knows what will be expected of them, if they wish to obtain this piece. If they don't have that kind of funds, they go away. If they do, but can't make themselves live with such a price, they go away. No lowball offers. No wasted time. No bruised egos, who go onto message forums and make condesending remarks about that buyer's offer. All of that is avoided, just by being honest with the other person.

 

 

As I've been saying, if the owners would simply be upfront and honest with inquires on NFS items, there would be none of the things these owners complain happens from such inquiries. For that I was insulted, laughed at, and had a few trolls bring up things that had nothing to do with anything. Very enlightening, I think, about how "friendly" some of the biggest collectors of this hobby truly are.

 

Dear Mr. Meeley,

 

Thank you very much for your sage advice. If we follow your example, we will all become perfect collectors, what a wonderful world that would be.

 

You seem to have facts (not opinions) on all aspects of original art collecting. How to be a better dealer and how to be a better collector. You've expressed facts on how to be a better comic store owner (in a different thread) too. You probably have facts on how to be a better artist too and comic publisher too.

 

You should write a book so that it becomes a manual for everyone in the comic community so that we may all aspire to act in those ideal ways and make this a paradise.

 

Regards,

 

Malvin

[irchooker]

I'll jump right in. Better late than...

 

Here's what I say, right up front, on the top of my CAF: "Everything in my collection can be considered available under the right circumstances. What are the right circumstances? Items on my WANT LIST, of course! If you ask about a piece which doesn't have a price attached to it (that means it's in my collection because I really like it) you should consider what that means, in context to current market values for similar pieces."

 

Here is how I feel about the 'make an offer' thing: I've had a number of people ask me about pieces I don't want to sell. I don't give a price because they might say yes. That might make me a terrible person, but it's my property. And I like it. If I say that something is 5k, when FMV is 3k, it's possible they will say yes. Then I'm stuck with selling something that I don't want to sell for 5k. Clearly the 5k number, my polite attempt at scaring them off, wasn't high enough to 1) scare them off or 2) satisfy me.

That 3k piece, it could go out the door for 30k. Probably even 8k... I just don't know what my tolerance is.

 

Summation: if I'm willing to sell it, I'll give them a price I can live with. If I don't want to sell it, I don't pretend that I'd turn down a 10x markup, instead I just don't give a price. And as long as it's my property, I'm under no obligation to price it. That's how I feel.

 

 

[comicartcom]

I'll jump right in. Better late than...

 

Here's what I say, right up front, on the top of my CAF: "Everything in my collection can be considered available under the right circumstances. What are the right circumstances? Items on my WANT LIST, of course! If you ask about a piece which doesn't have a price attached to it (that means it's in my collection because I really like it) you should consider what that means, in context to current market values for similar pieces."

 

Here is how I feel about the 'make an offer' thing: I've had a number of people ask me about pieces I don't want to sell. I don't give a price because they might say yes. That might make me a terrible person, but it's my property. And I like it. If I say that something is 5k, when FMV is 3k, it's possible they will say yes. Then I'm stuck with selling something that I don't want to sell for 5k. Clearly the 5k number, my polite attempt at scaring them off, wasn't high enough to 1) scare them off or 2) satisfy me.

That 3k piece, it could go out the door for 30k. Probably even 8k... I just don't know what my tolerance is.

 

Summation: if I'm willing to sell it, I'll give them a price I can live with. If I don't want to sell it, I don't pretend that I'd turn down a 10x markup, instead I just don't give a price. And as long as it's my property, I'm under no obligation to price it. That's how I feel.

 

 

an intelligent and erudite post

 

[Meeley Man]

I'll jump right in. Better late than...

 

Here's what I say, right up front, on the top of my CAF: "Everything in my collection can be considered available under the right circumstances. What are the right circumstances? Items on my WANT LIST, of course! If you ask about a piece which doesn't have a price attached to it (that means it's in my collection because I really like it) you should consider what that means, in context to current market values for similar pieces."

 

Here is how I feel about the 'make an offer' thing: I've had a number of people ask me about pieces I don't want to sell. I don't give a price because they might say yes. That might make me a terrible person, but it's my property. And I like it. If I say that something is 5k, when FMV is 3k, it's possible they will say yes. Then I'm stuck with selling something that I don't want to sell for 5k. Clearly the 5k number, my polite attempt at scaring them off, wasn't high enough to 1) scare them off or 2) satisfy me.

That 3k piece, it could go out the door for 30k. Probably even 8k... I just don't know what my tolerance is.

 

Summation: if I'm willing to sell it, I'll give them a price I can live with. If I don't want to sell it, I don't pretend that I'd turn down a 10x markup, instead I just don't give a price. And as long as it's my property, I'm under no obligation to price it. That's how I feel.

 

 

Well, I certainly respect the fact that you put such info at the top of your CAF page. I'm sure that cuts down on some wasted efforts by some potential buyers.

 

As for the rest, I'm not saying anyone has to sell anything they don't want to. You are the legal owner (at least, I hope you are) of what's in your collection and it's your call to sell or not. But it isn't right to string someone along in thinking you'll sell something that is supposedly "NFS," simply to try to use their ignorance to get some "crazy money pay out" or publicly play the "offended card" when you get a lowball offer.

 

You say you fear giving a number, because they might still go for it. Easy solution to that problem: Say, "Sorry, not interested in selling this item." Now you don't have to worry about them taking your "scare tactic" seriously. And you aren't the bad guy, either, because it is listed as "NFS."

 

I really don't understand why it seems like such a difficult chore to so many, simply to be honest and upfront. What the hell is it with playing these games and leading people on? If you don't want to price a NFS item, don't say you'll sell. Don't even hint at it with asking for offers (in which you are giving the potential buyer false hopes and no information to prevent lowball offers). And if you still want to play that game, then you certainly have no right to beef about lowball offers publicly, or make condesending remarks about the folks who did so, because you created that situation yourself.

 

This isn't really that hard. I SWEAR it isn't.

[comicartcom]

Well, I certainly respect the fact that you put such info at the top of your CAF page. I'm sure that cuts down on some wasted efforts by some potential buyers.

 

As for the rest, I'm not saying anyone has to sell anything they don't want to. You are the legal owner (at least, I hope you are) of what's in your collection and it's your call to sell or not. But it isn't right to string someone along in thinking you'll sell something that is supposedly "NFS," simply to try to use their ignorance to get some "crazy money pay out" or publicly play the "offended card" when you get a lowball offer.

 

You say you fear giving a number, because they might still go for it. Easy solution to that problem: Say, "Sorry, not interested in selling this item." Now you don't have to worry about them taking your "scare tactic" seriously. And you aren't the bad guy, either, because it is listed as "NFS."

 

I really don't understand why it seems like such a difficult chore to so many, simply to be honest and upfront. What the hell is it with playing these games and leading people on? If you don't want to price a NFS item, don't say you'll sell. Don't even hint at it with asking for offers (in which you are giving the potential buyer false hopes and no information to prevent lowball offers). And if you still want to play that game, then you certainly have no right to beef about lowball offers publicly, or make condesending remarks about the folks who did so, because you created that situation yourself.

 

This isn't really that hard. I SWEAR it isn't.

 

Oh My God.. it's gotten so deep, the whole universe is being covered in it

 

[heartened]

If I don't wish to sell and you want to buy, you must make an offer that makes me consider changing my position

 

anything else is hogwash

 

If you don't wish to sell, then DON'T. It's real easy.

 

If you want to open the "offers gate," then be prepared to give that potential buyer the info they need to make a proper one. Otherwise, if you are lowballed, it's no one fault but your own. Period!

 

Anything else is hogwash.

 

Hi James,

 

I think the problem with what you're saying is the reality that almost everything that is NFS really does have the potential to leave the collection. In other words, almost everything does still have a price that'll make the owner scratch their head and feel they'd be crazy to pass on the offer. Thus, for an owner to tell a person "NFS for ANY price" is rare in practical terms.

 

Hi Hari,

 

That's fine, but if everything has the potential to be sold, then you must have some idea of what you would be willing to accept for a item listed "NFS" (a minimum acceptable amount, as it were). Otherwise, why would you lead on a potential buyer, in thinking there is any possibility they can get the item from you?

 

So, if we now accept the point that "everything has it's price," you (as the owner of said item) need to be forthright and honest to let that potential buyer know just where that price resides. A reply like this:

 

"Well, the piece isn't really for sale, but if you were to make a substancnial enough offer over the market value, which for this piece is $20,000, of say 25% or more, I might have to think about it. Otherwise, the piece will remain not for sale."

 

Now, you see? The buyer knows what will be expected of them, if they wish to obtain this piece. If they don't have that kind of funds, they go away. If they do, but can't make themselves live with such a price, they go away. No lowball offers. No wasted time. No bruised egos, who go onto message forums and make condesending remarks about that buyer's offer. All of that is avoided, just by being honest with the other person.

 

And again, as I've stated before, if you don't feel like doing that, then just say "sorry, the piece is not for sale at this time." It does say "NFS", after all.Why you'd want to play games with a person and lead them on, with "make an offer" and no way for them to know what you feel is "fair," is extrtemely inconsiderate and does more to foster lowball offers, than anything an inexperienced buyer could do.

 

I do have pieces that are NFS at ANY price (because of sentimental or strong nostalgiac attachment, and because my income keeps my collection still just a hobby), but crazy offers will make me change my mind on some pieces, especiallly the ones I have similar/duplicate pieces of.

 

Yes, but do you really expect most folks who inquire about NFS items to throw "crazy money offers" at you? Many who make such inquiries are new and /or inexperienced in the hobby and marketplace. They probably have little idea what the piece is worth, much less what more above that YOU will be expecting to part with it. This is why just being upfront with them, as I've outlined many times here, is simply the best way to go. If someone hates getting lowball offers on NFS items, there's a really easy way to stop them, by spreading your knowledge to those who do not yet have it. It really doesn't take a lot of effort for you and will benefit, both the buyer and the marketplace as a whole.

 

Here's my advice for you. If you see something you want that's NFS, try to figure out the market. You may even strike up a conversation with the seller first, asking about what the market is like for those types of pieces. Most collectors are nice and will email back and educate. Then, you can certainly (at the end) let him/her know that you'd be interested in a particular piece. Of course, by then, you may realize that you're out of the ballpark and can't afford it. But even this is fine, as you've learned the market and have not made an insulting or low-ball offer.

 

Happy hunting,

 

Hari

 

But Hari, that's not really any different from what I've been saying. To have this "friendly conversation" with with owner of the NFS piece, with the intent to gleen market value information, is pretty much the same thing, as having the owner just state how much over market it will cost to get the NFS item. The only difference is the amount of emails you will exchange.

 

And, if this thread is anything to go by, you couldn't be more wrong about how "nice" and forthcoming other collectors will be, even if you are just having that "friendly conversation." What I've seen here is tantamount to people saying "It's not MY job to educate neophyte collectors!" Nevermind they also complain about lowball offers and the like, knowing what I've said would make most of them disappear. It almost feels like they want to play to the ignorance of new/uneducated collectors, as a means to get those "crazy money offers." Or maybe they just like to tease people who aren't as "in the know" as they are? I don't know. But the attitude I've seen over the course of this... discussion... has done nothing to reflect a friendly and helpful nature of the experienced OA collector. It has, in fact, shown the opposite.

 

As I've been saying, if the owners would simply be upfront and honest with inquires on NFS items, there would be none of the things these owners complain happens from such inquiries. For that I was insulted, laughed at, and had a few trolls bring up things that had nothing to do with anything. Very enlightening, I think, about how "friendly" some of the biggest collectors of this hobby truly are.

 

Hi James,

 

I'm always friendly to new collectors, have been helping them whenever I have time over the past 10 years. I believe in growing the hobby and keeping it fun and interesting. I know many of the guys on this thread, and I know you feel they're being snobbish or "mean" to new collectors, but really I think there are just different mentalities in this debate. I don't believe these guys are trying to take advantage of anyone on purpose. If you're approaching someone, then why would you trust that person's opinion anyway? You're better off asking a third part to confirm or refute prices. Find out who are the "experts" in that area, and shoot of an email. I have found people to be very helpful when I've done that.

 

I do expect people to send me a crazy offers, say double market value, because I rarely if ever sell. If something's valued at 10K, yes it'll probably take at least 20K. That's my reputation, and it avoids the casual inquiry that won't go anywhere. I buy high-end pieces for a my collection that I'm growing, and it would take double at a minimum for me to sell ANY of them (with few exception). Thus, I avoid stating that price because I bet that some inquirers would start calling me names or saying I'm ridiculous or "trying to take advantage of a new collector" because my prices are insane. Plus, I do not want those values out there for fear that it will set the market up to that level whether or not I sell that particular piece.

 

For the record, if anyone emails me about a particular genre of art that I'm an "expert" on (Miracleman, Grendel or anything 80s), I'm always open to informing them (time permitting) on the market, what similar items have sold for, etc. That's part of the fun. But if you're asking to sell a particular item that is in my collection, that I have marked NFS, I'm not sure market value has a whole lot to do with it anymore. Therein lies the problem.

 

Glad you're keeping this discussion going. For the most part this has remained civil and it's an important topic, let's continue to flesh it out (this goes for everyone).

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

[Bronty]

Well, I certainly respect the fact that you put such info at the top of your CAF page. I'm sure that cuts down on some wasted efforts by some potential buyers.

 

As for the rest, I'm not saying anyone has to sell anything they don't want to. You are the legal owner (at least, I hope you are) of what's in your collection and it's your call to sell or not. But it isn't right to string someone along in thinking you'll sell something that is supposedly "NFS," simply to try to use their ignorance to get some "crazy money pay out" or publicly play the "offended card" when you get a lowball offer.

 

You say you fear giving a number, because they might still go for it. Easy solution to that problem: Say, "Sorry, not interested in selling this item." Now you don't have to worry about them taking your "scare tactic" seriously. And you aren't the bad guy, either, because it is listed as "NFS."

 

I really don't understand why it seems like such a difficult chore to so many, simply to be honest and upfront. What the hell is it with playing these games and leading people on? If you don't want to price a NFS item, don't say you'll sell. Don't even hint at it with asking for offers (in which you are giving the potential buyer false hopes and no information to prevent lowball offers). And if you still want to play that game, then you certainly have no right to beef about lowball offers publicly, or make condesending remarks about the folks who did so, because you created that situation yourself.

 

This isn't really that hard. I SWEAR it isn't.

 

Oh My God.. it's gotten so deep, the whole universe is being covered in it

 

 

looks like a disturbing version of planet of the apes

[jjonahjameson1]

So is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the overwhelming majority of respondants stated that they are fine with people inquiring on their NFS items.

 

hmm, maybe NFS = please inquire.

 

Please inquire. Now where did I see that before in spades?

[comicartcom]

So is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the overwhelming majority of respondants stated that they are fine with people inquiring on their NFS items.

 

hmm, maybe NFS = please inquire.

 

Please inquire. Now where did I see that before in spades?

 

just because you don't mind being contacted doesn't mean you plan on selling or that you're asking for inquiries

 

part of collecting is about sharing with other people. That is exactly what CAF was designed for. Someone contacting you is saying "I like your taste and I collect just like you do"

 

There isn't anything wrong with that

 

However, James' statements that if someone asks for a price on NFS art that you have, that it's on you to make a price for the inquiry is ridiculous. If I felt like pricing my art for sale, it would be priced for sale. By having NFS on it, it says "I'm showing this so you can enjoy it" Besides, if you are selling your items, then you can have them in your FS listings. James has lots of FS

 

maybe CAF needs to add a different default setting something like INFSS (it's not for sale spoon) or DFBM INFS (don't effin bother me, it's not for sale) or even IYWTI, MABO (if you want to inquire, make a big offer)

 

I prefer the easy way NFS.. NOT FOR SALE

 

which means it isn't for sale and if you plan on bothering me and hope that someday I will sell it and that you wish to be remembered, you had better make me an offer that would spark my consideration and cause me to remember you.

 

If someone driviong down the street asks you how much you will sell your house for, even though it was not for sale and you have no plans on moving.. that does not mean I have to post a price to you. I don't want to sell it. If you want me to think about moving, you better make me an offer and it better be killer or I'm just going to shine you on

 

Interestingly, though I have gotten lots of inquiries, all anyone wants to offer is market price or less to which I say WTFDYFBMS (why the ef did you effen bother me spoon) and you most certainly will not be remembered for your offer

 

Rich

[Meeley Man]

So is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the overwhelming majority of respondants stated that they are fine with people inquiring on their NFS items.

 

hmm, maybe NFS = please inquire.

 

Please inquire. Now where did I see that before in spades?

 

Funny enough, many complained about the one(s) who you are inferring, for doing just that.

 

Strange how the tune has changed, once that same expectation was put on others, isn't it?

[Meeley Man]

Hi James,

 

I'm always friendly to new collectors, have been helping them whenever I have time over the past 10 years. I believe in growing the hobby and keeping it fun and interesting. I know many of the guys on this thread, and I know you feel they're being snobbish or "mean" to new collectors, but really I think there are just different mentalities in this debate. I don't believe these guys are trying to take advantage of anyone on purpose. If you're approaching someone, then why would you trust that person's opinion anyway? You're better off asking a third part to confirm or refute prices. Find out who are the "experts" in that area, and shoot of an email. I have found people to be very helpful when I've done that.

 

Hi Hari,

 

Well, it's good to know you are that helpful and friendly, but I have trouble believing that you are "the rule" rather than "the exception."

 

You say you know many on this thread, who've shown a mentality that would seem to be in direct opposition to what you said, and that you don't think they are as "snobbish and mean" as they've portrayed themselves here. Maybe that's true, or maybe you don't know them as well as you think. Either way, it would seem their own words and actions here have spoken volumes more about them, than any assurances you could give. Sorry, but whether using "friendly conversation" emails or not, what I've seen here, I feel, is the true representation of how more collectors really feel, than not. This isn't simply just "having a bad day" kind of thing. Some of the things said to (and about) me run a lot deeper than that. Too deep to be anything else but their true face, IMO. Sorry, Hari, but I don't see this community as "friendly and helpful" as you yourself might be.

 

I do expect people to send me a crazy offers, say double market value, because I rarely if ever sell. If something's valued at 10K, yes it'll probably take at least 20K. That's my reputation, and it avoids the casual inquiry that won't go anywhere. I buy high-end pieces for a my collection that I'm growing, and it would take double at a minimum for me to sell ANY of them (with few exception). Thus, I avoid stating that price because I bet that some inquirers would start calling me names or saying I'm ridiculous or "trying to take advantage of a new collector" because my prices are insane. Plus, I do not want those values out there for fear that it will set the market up to that level whether or not I sell that particular piece.

 

If you expect "crazy money offers" to sell a NFS piece, you know what that tells me? You don't want to sell it. So, instead of playing some silly game of "pay me crazy money," why not just say that? Because you fear they might offer it and you don't want to "miss out"? Seems rather silly, to me. Firstly, because most people who will inquire will be new or inexperienced collectors. Generally, they don't usually have that kind of cash to throw around, either. So, they aren't going to offer it, or be able to pay it if they wanted to. And secondly, if someone was willing to pay double FMV (or more) for that piece, they'd put that offer to you right upfront themselves. You won't need to play the "make me a crazy money offer" game. So, the whole rationale for this nonsense is flawed right to the core. You are playing this game, based on... what?... a few once-in-a-blue-moon flukes? A couple people have told stories about this, or maybe it happened to you once, so now you hold out thinking it'll happen again? I hate to say it, Hari, but that is pretty ridiculous (especially in this economy we are in). You'd have a better shot of hitting the lotto and getting struck by lightning, in the same day, than to have this happen.

 

So, again, I ask, why not just simply say "sorry, it's not for sale" and be honest with the potential buyer. Because what you expect is nowhere near reasonable. You know it, the buyer (if they are told) will know it, so why even bother? Sure, it's your property and you can do what you wish with it, but it just doesn't make sense to do this.

 

Besides, I don't think your ASKING for such a price will inflate the market values any. Only if you actually get it, would that happen. You would run the risk of being seen as a money-grubbing jerk, though, so I understand your fear of such insults being flung at you. But, as I've said, all that is avoided, if you simply are honest (with the buyer and yourself) and tell them you don't want to sell, because what you expect to sell says as much. There's just no need for the game.

 

For the record, if anyone emails me about a particular genre of art that I'm an "expert" on (Miracleman, Grendel or anything 80s), I'm always open to informing them (time permitting) on the market, what similar items have sold for, etc. That's part of the fun. But if you're asking to sell a particular item that is in my collection, that I have marked NFS, I'm not sure market value has a whole lot to do with it anymore. Therein lies the problem.

 

Glad you're keeping this discussion going. For the most part this has remained civil and it's an important topic, let's continue to flesh it out (this goes for everyone).

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

Then, if FMV has no meaning in selling a NFS item for you, that means you don't want to sell. So, don't. Tell the potential buyer that. They can't be upset because you didn't sell was wasn't for sale. But they can be upset by having their emotions played with, by being strung along and ask to pay (what we all know) is an unreasobale price. Or even more, having themselves publicly insulted and degraded, because they made a lowball offer, due to being inexperienced and denied valuable information from the owner, who lead them on with "make me an offer."

 

And it is funny, when you look at how so many of the experienced collectors have balked and condemned such tactics as asking for an offer, with the owner expecting 2x FMV (or more), when the owner was also a dealer (i.e., the Donnelleys). They are blasted as cheats and market-manipulators, if not outright crooks, but I support that feeling, because it is a very dishonest way to do business. But the same holds true for private collectors who do the same. It's not wrong for them, but okay for you and others, just because you haven't made a business in doing it. By entertaining a possible sale, even with "make me an offer," you are engaged in doing business, the same as art art rep or dealer would be, and you should be expected to play things just as honestly and forthright as they are. It doesn't matter that the inquiry was unsolicited. It doesn't matter that the potential buyer is new or inexperienced. If you don't wish to sell, you owe it to them and yourself to be honest about that. Playing a game of over-inflated expectations and leading them on, is just wrong. And nothing you or anyone else has said here has changed that.

 

You know, this whole thing has gotten me to wonder, if maybe some folks haven't been in this hobby too long. That they've gotten so used to these kind of games, that they can't see any other way to do things anymore. If that is true, to any degree, I have to say, it makes me feel a little bit ashamed to be associated with this community. When someone calling for honesty between collectors gets ridiculed and laughed it, it is a pretty sad thing, I think.

 

Of course, I will continue to do my level best to keep things civil, as I have throughout this whole thing. Sadly, though, I have my doubts if many others will feel so inclinded, if what has come before is anything to go by.

[Coach]

Hello, I am a relatively new collector and since I don’t have a CAF gallery yet, I didn’t feel I had anything to contribute to this subject. But as a new collector who just recently almost made an offer on a NFS piece perhaps I can offer another perspective.

 

If, after contacting the owner, he was willing to entertain offers I planned to make an offer based on the following. I would try to determine the FMV of the piece by checking past results from Heritage and current prices by various dealers for comparable pieces. I was going to cite these examples as well as my thought process of how I determined what I thought the FMV was and intended to make an offer which included a premium (in this case I was going to go with a 30% premium). I was also going to state that I wasn’t sure of the true FMV and that if the offer was low, that I apologize in advance.

 

It turned out that I did not have the funds to make my offer so it has been put on hold for the time being. At no time did I feel that the owner should provide any information to me including anything pertaining to his price expectations. In fact, since the item was marked NFS, I would not be offended if I received no reply at all.

 

The key thing for me is that I was approaching him on a piece he gave no impression of trying to sell so I do not feel he is required to do anything. Would I like him to give me information or a price range? Sure, but as I said, I am approaching him so I would not expect it, nor would I feel like he is playing games with me if he didn’t.

 

Just my personal opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Darren