Heritage--Elvgren and other results

[stinkininkin]

Slightly off topic, but Ruben brought up the recent Heritage Illustration auction in another thread, and I wondered what folks thought of some of the results in the just finished auction. I've thought about acquiring an Elvgren painting over the years, but don't really understand the market. There were 4 paintings that went for over 100k (one went for over 190k and another 150k) and three others in the 50k range. Are there characteristics which drive values up that I'm missing? And don't these prices represent a significant bump over recent Elvgren prices? Is this just because they came from the Marignette collection and are "new to market" or are they considered superior for another reason? I'm really interested to learn. Gene? You're pretty plugged into this stuff--help a guy out.

 

Scott Williams

[Bronty]

I was wondering the same thing in the past - I think one confusing point (at least it was for me ) is that heritage's estimates on these are always very low compared to what they hammer at. IIRC the estimates are always 30-40k yet sales are much higher. The last auction had one or two around 200k as well. I think it just boils down to how nice an image it is or isn't, but I really don't know anything about the market either. They are gorgeous but worth more than I consider fair... at these prices I'd rather look at the next tier of pinup artists were I inclined to splurge for a nice pinup.

[Nexus]

I made a similar observation to other collector friends while reviewing the auction results-- the $50K Elvgrens looked about the same to me as the $150K+ ones. So yes, I would love to have someone who knows this market educate me as well.

[delekkerste]

Hi Scott,

 

No doubt these were firm prices on the Elvgrens. I think prices were a bit softer than in the last sale, though that auction had some first-rate pieces while I did not feel that any Elvgren piece in this sale made the cut.

 

This is my impression of what is going on, from what I've seen over the past 5 years. I don't recall, from when I had an AskArt.com subscription, there being much of an organized market for Elvgren until the early 2000s. At that point, Heritage started making some offerings and some other art auction houses as well. Prices generally went for $20-$40K for his better pieces, with his auction record being just under $100K if I recall correctly.

 

A couple of years ago, his paintings really started taking off for some reason. The exposure to Heritage certainly played a role, though I don't know who was buying or for what reason. I got the feeling that there was a concerted effort by certain parties to establish and grow a market for the artist (there is a short list of usual suspects). This culminated in an insane auction in the summer of 2008, where multiple paintings topped $200K for no discernible reason, including one that had sold not that long previously for a fraction of that amount.

 

An October 2008 Heritage sale reflected the jitters from the credit implosion and financial meltdown, as prices came back to earth in a hurry. But, it was nothing compared to the shocking Heritage sale in March 2009 where many pieces that had fetched big $$$ in previous years were dumped onto the market at a loss. You can imagine what a shock it was to go from multiple 6-figure amounts in the summer of 2008 to only fetching 10-20% of those sums 9 months later. This really made me question the market - who was buying and who was dumping? How deep was this market that the floor could just fall out like that?

 

Anyway, the next auction in July 2009 featured the first Martignette estate pieces and it was the complete opposite of the disastrous March 2009 sale - a rousing success with strong prices across the Board. Heritage did a great job marketing the sale and, I was told, non-comic/illustration art buyers crossed over and bid prices sky high.

 

As for this past sale, I'm not sure what's going on. I guess the July sale reassured some buyers and there may have been some cross-hobby interest again, who knows. Maybe the speculator(s) are back too? I know I don't have any interest at these kinds of prices as I'm not convinced these prices are sustainable, having seen what happened between 2008 and early 2009 and not knowing who is buying. BTW, the painting that sold for $191K - I remember a certain art dealer mentioned to me that he was in touch with that painting not that long ago when it would have been a modest fraction of that price. I don't buy art for investment, but price of course is a big factor when you are talking about selling prices that are multiples of what they were only a few years ago (or heck, even compared to the prices from just this past March).

 

As for the disparity in prices between the paintings - well, certain periods of his career are considered more valuable (late 1940s to mid-1960s is his prime period), as well as certain themes, subject matter and amount of skin shown (in general, more is better). It's hard to make sense of why each lot in the last sale sold for what it did based on these criteria, though - my guess is that it came down to the personal preference of a handful of bidders.

 

If you look at the # of bidders, we're only looking at a half dozen or so per lot and I know at least a couple of those were me and another Forumite with low "watch" bids. I think you have to be careful about how liquid this market really is - personally, I am skeptical of how well some of these paintings would do if they were to be resold anytime soon, especially after seeing what happened the last time that occurred. I would like to add another Elvgren (a first-tier piece) to my collection, but I intend to wait for saner prices.

[micmack]

If you noticed the results, a couple went over the 100k mark, then after that the prices dropped. My take is there were a couple big spenders and when they got what they wanted there wasn't anyone else who was willing to go as high. I watched the auction live and I suspected that after the $190k piece, the prices would drop. I was correct. Just a guess on this on my part....

[comicartcom]

I made a similar observation to other collector friends while reviewing the auction results-- the $50K Elvgrens looked about the same to me as the $150K+ ones. So yes, I would love to have someone who knows this market educate me as well.

 

Gene, it's the same thing as why a Byrne page from X-men #120 sells for more than an X-men page from #146: when/what for/what company/etc was it published

 

some people like the Brown & Bigelow stuff best

[stinkininkin]

I made a similar observation to other collector friends while reviewing the auction results-- the $50K Elvgrens looked about the same to me as the $150K+ ones. So yes, I would love to have someone who knows this market educate me as well.

 

Gene, it's the same thing as why a Byrne page from X-men #120 sells for more than an X-men page from #146: when/what for/what company/etc was it published

 

some people like the Brown & Bigelow stuff best

 

This is part of what I was wondering about. I know enough about comics to know what storylines command the most or what specific periods on an artist's career are most sought after. When it comes to Illustration art, I'm ignorant.

 

Brown and Bigelow? Does this represent a specific publisher/client and period?

 

Scott Williams

[Child,pleeze-migration]

If I ever won the lottery, the first thing I'd buy is an Elvgren painting. Until then, it's just a dream.

 

I'm not an art expert and I can't speak for the buyers, but I can explain why I thought the 100k pieces were far superior than the 50k ones. They did not look the same to me.

 

First, I thought the 100k pieces clearly had more elements in the background. The 50k pieces had relatively simple backgrounds while the high end ones had an entire scenery.

 

Second, my favorite Elvgren pieces were always the ones with stockings, specifically dark stockings. It's probably what attracted me to Elvgren's art in the first place. Some guys love it, some don't care. In my opinion, seeing an Elvgren piece without stockings is like seeing Zatanna without fishnets.

 

Lastly, while my personal favorite piece in the recent Heritage auction was the one with the checkers, I can see why someone would be willing to pay more ($191k) for the "On the house" one. The "on the house" piece had a woman who was doing a laborious job that only men would normally do, especially back then. And while most Elvgren pieces feature women posing, the "on the house" piece had a more natural feel to it, like she was working and didn't realize her skirt got pulled up. It's one of the few Elvgren pieces where the female wasn't staring in the viewer's direction.

 

 

I can't explain or justify why the pieces were sold at their hammered prices. I speak solely from a fan perspective and judge what I see. In my eyes, the $100k pieces were far superior than the $50k ones and the $191k piece was something more unique. If the pieces were resold next month, I would bet that the same pieces would still fetch double the cash as the others..

[Nexus]

I made a similar observation to other collector friends while reviewing the auction results-- the $50K Elvgrens looked about the same to me as the $150K+ ones. So yes, I would love to have someone who knows this market educate me as well.

 

Gene, it's the same thing as why a Byrne page from X-men #120 sells for more than an X-men page from #146: when/what for/what company/etc was it published

 

some people like the Brown & Bigelow stuff best

 

Thanks Rich and Gene. I figured there had to be something to differentiate them, but without knowing them, and just based on the art alone, the multiplier seemed a bit arbitrary.

 

Anyhow, fun to look at and talk about, but I'm not in the market for one, especially at the current valuations. I've got enough wants just with comic art to keep me busy (and broke:P).

[comicartcom]

Scott, Brown and Bigelow was a major pin-up calendar publisher for many years

Most of the Elvgren stuff is for them

 

alot of the stuff with better backgrounds are later pieces

I had one a long time ago & doubled my money in 2 weeks when they were only a few grand. But I was never a huge Elvgren fan as much as Zoe Mozert

 

I did however keep these

 

Zoe Mozert

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=546336&GSub=85934

 

Rolf Armstrong

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=546338&GSub=85934

 

 

[tonytiger]

I made a similar observation to other collector friends while reviewing the auction results-- the $50K Elvgrens looked about the same to me as the $150K+ ones. So yes, I would love to have someone who knows this market educate me as well.

 

The one for 150k was 3 times better than the 50k painting.

[mtlevy]

Why did that McGinnis sell for $20K?

[comicartcom]

you know what fellers.. Looking at the results of Elvgrensfrom the link above I can say there is not truly a rhyme or reason to the prces being realized beyind this:

 

the 2 people who are fighting each other have such very deep pockets that $219k on an Elvgren they like is like any of us spending a couple hundred bucks

 

 

... and I do think it's only a couple of people bidding to those heights except for 3rd parties who may join the fray looking to buy one painting for themselves. How the prices got there is beyond me.. Elvgrens for $200k are something I would have told you that you were insane even 5 years ago much less 20 years ago when I tried to deal with Martignetti (it was impossible). I'll go further that no one I know would have envisioned anything like it.. except Charlie Martignetti

[stagedoorjohnny]

... and I do think it's only a couple of people bidding to those heights except for 3rd parties who may join the fray looking to buy one painting for themselves. How the prices got there is beyond me.. Elvgrens for $200k are something I would have told you that you were insane even 5 years ago much less 20 years ago when I tried to deal with Martignetti (it was impossible). I'll go further that no one I know would have envisioned anything like it.. except Charlie Martignetti

 

 

I've been following the Elvgren market for about 7 years now and what has happened to pricing in such a short period of time is mind boggling. My question is, how many Elvgren pin-up paintings actually exist? It seems to me that there are quite a few.

 

 

[delekkerste]

I've been following the Elvgren market for about 7 years now and what has happened to pricing in such a short period of time is mind boggling. My question is, how many Elvgren pin-up paintings actually exist? It seems to me that there are quite a few.

 

He did close to 600 pin-ups and there are probably hundreds still in existence - just look at how many photos in Martignette & Meisel's definitive Elvgren book were shot from the originals (many that were shot from the published pieces have subsequently ended up for sale, including the one I own).

 

To get more specific, here is what makes a great Elvgren, in my opinion:

 

- Size: 30"x24" only

 

- Time Period: roughly 1948 to 1968 (his Brown & Bigelow era was 1945-1972)

 

- Theme: Damsel caught in awkward position; certain images have become "classic"

 

- Model: Eyes fully open and facing the viewer, face full of expression, neither body nor face in profile. Colorful clothing

 

- Skin: Tantalizing - stockings/garters, maybe a hint of undergarments...just a little more than you're supposed to see as opposed to clothed, only undergarments, sheer clothing, sleepwear, swimwear or fully nude.

 

- Background: finished background, more than one color. Outdoor settings much preferred

 

- Colors: bright and vibrant - in my opinion, this is what separates the great ones from the merely very good

 

- Condition: can also play a factor. That $191K piece in the last auction was immaculate, which probably played a hand in fetching that price (because I certainly don't think that it is a $191K image)

[stagedoorjohnny]

Good info and some great insight. Thanks. (thumbs u

 

I thought the overall results for this auction, putting Elvgren aside, were pretty solid considering the amount of supply. The more iconic pin-up art did very well as I am sure was expected. That one Vargas piece, in particular, from his Ziegfeld days is just stunning. I can stare at it all day.

[stinkininkin]

I've been following the Elvgren market for about 7 years now and what has happened to pricing in such a short period of time is mind boggling. My question is, how many Elvgren pin-up paintings actually exist? It seems to me that there are quite a few.

 

He did close to 600 pin-ups and there are probably hundreds still in existence - just look at how many photos in Martignette & Meisel's definitive Elvgren book were shot from the originals (many that were shot from the published pieces have subsequently ended up for sale, including the one I own).

 

To get more specific, here is what makes a great Elvgren, in my opinion:

 

- Size: 30"x24" only

 

- Time Period: roughly 1948 to 1968 (his Brown & Bigelow era was 1945-1972)

 

- Theme: Damsel caught in awkward position; certain images have become "classic"

 

- Model: Eyes fully open and facing the viewer, face full of expression, neither body nor face in profile. Colorful clothing

 

- Skin: Tantalizing - stockings/garters, maybe a hint of undergarments...just a little more than you're supposed to see as opposed to clothed, only undergarments, sheer clothing, sleepwear, swimwear or fully nude.

 

- Background: finished background, more than one color. Outdoor settings much preferred

 

- Colors: bright and vibrant - in my opinion, this is what separates the great ones from the merely very good

 

- Condition: can also play a factor. That $191K piece in the last auction was immaculate, which probably played a hand in fetching that price (because I certainly don't think that it is a $191K image)

 

Great analysis Gene. Thank you!

 

It's the equivalent (for me) of understanding why a great twice up Jack Kirby Doomsday page from Fantastic Four 57-60 might be more sought after and worth multiples of a great small art FF page from the end of the initial run. If I'm going to pay top dollar, I at least want to know WHY it's top dollar. Though having said that, I'd probably still be happy with a less than perfect Elvgren, one that doesn't hit all the benchmarks you outline as long as I just really love the image/art. The fact that it might only cost me a fourth of the "top" pieces is a welcome and necessary bonus. That would be true of the Kirby FF as well I might add!

 

Scott Williams

[comix4fun]

I've been following the Elvgren market for about 7 years now and what has happened to pricing in such a short period of time is mind boggling. My question is, how many Elvgren pin-up paintings actually exist? It seems to me that there are quite a few.

 

He did close to 600 pin-ups and there are probably hundreds still in existence - just look at how many photos in Martignette & Meisel's definitive Elvgren book were shot from the originals (many that were shot from the published pieces have subsequently ended up for sale, including the one I own).

 

To get more specific, here is what makes a great Elvgren, in my opinion:

 

- Size: 30"x24" only

 

- Time Period: roughly 1948 to 1968 (his Brown & Bigelow era was 1945-1972)

 

- Theme: Damsel caught in awkward position; certain images have become "classic"

 

- Model: Eyes fully open and facing the viewer, face full of expression, neither body nor face in profile. Colorful clothing

 

- Skin: Tantalizing - stockings/garters, maybe a hint of undergarments...just a little more than you're supposed to see as opposed to clothed, only undergarments, sheer clothing, sleepwear, swimwear or fully nude.

 

- Background: finished background, more than one color. Outdoor settings much preferred

 

- Colors: bright and vibrant - in my opinion, this is what separates the great ones from the merely very good

 

- Condition: can also play a factor. That $191K piece in the last auction was immaculate, which probably played a hand in fetching that price (because I certainly don't think that it is a $191K image)

 

 

Nice analysis.

 

This one has always been my favorite Elvgren (or at least in the top 3) but it violates several of your criteria.

[stinkininkin]

I've been following the Elvgren market for about 7 years now and what has happened to pricing in such a short period of time is mind boggling. My question is, how many Elvgren pin-up paintings actually exist? It seems to me that there are quite a few.

 

He did close to 600 pin-ups and there are probably hundreds still in existence - just look at how many photos in Martignette & Meisel's definitive Elvgren book were shot from the originals (many that were shot from the published pieces have subsequently ended up for sale, including the one I own).

 

To get more specific, here is what makes a great Elvgren, in my opinion:

 

- Size: 30"x24" only

 

- Time Period: roughly 1948 to 1968 (his Brown & Bigelow era was 1945-1972)

 

- Theme: Damsel caught in awkward position; certain images have become "classic"

 

- Model: Eyes fully open and facing the viewer, face full of expression, neither body nor face in profile. Colorful clothing

 

- Skin: Tantalizing - stockings/garters, maybe a hint of undergarments...just a little more than you're supposed to see as opposed to clothed, only undergarments, sheer clothing, sleepwear, swimwear or fully nude.

 

- Background: finished background, more than one color. Outdoor settings much preferred

 

- Colors: bright and vibrant - in my opinion, this is what separates the great ones from the merely very good

 

- Condition: can also play a factor. That $191K piece in the last auction was immaculate, which probably played a hand in fetching that price (because I certainly don't think that it is a $191K image)

 

 

Nice analysis.

 

This one has always been my favorite Elvgren (or at least in the top 3) but it violates several of your criteria.

 

That looks like a keeper to me as well! Good call.

 

Scott Williams

[Nexus]

Agree 100% (and thank you as well, Gene). Unless money is no object, we all have to make compromises in our collecting. I faced a similar situation early on. I wanted a Miller DD example, but didn't want to spend what it would take to get a TOP example (one with DD, Elektra and/or Bullseye). I ultimately got a nice representative example I'm very happy with for a fraction of the cost.

 

I've also experienced the flip side...I've paid the highest prices ever for certain artists/titles because I just really wanted them and they were still within my budget. I also knew going in that I'd never get my money back if I tried to sell.

 

As far as these Elvgrens go, if I'm on a budget, I'd "settle" for a lesser one as well...they're all beautiful, the subtle differences aren't worth 3-4X to me. Even from an investment standpoint (and it's impossible, at least for me, to not consider that at these prices), the conventional wisdom is that you don't buy the most expensive house on your block. Apples and oranges, I know, but I'd wager that in the long run, you'd be better off with the $50K example than the $200K one. Even in the worst case scenario (if there's a crash, you'll have lost only $50K instead of $200K ).