And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[buttock]

so, the most highly regarded, most experience comic book restorian considers pressing restoration...

 

That's not exactly breaking news. That declaration is years old, and she released it when she became involved in NOD.

But the fact still remains true and is appropriate for this discussion since many in here are claiming otherwise. Likely the most highly regarded, most experienced comic book restoration expert in the world considers pressing to be restoration and should be proactively disclosed.

 

If she had gone to work for CGC (a job for which she was turned down for per Borock) would her position be the same?

 

Susan is a highly regarded professional, I but I no longer consider her to be the most highly regarded, though I do believe she is obviously in the top tier.

How is anyone supposed to guess what someone elses position might have been if a particular situation had been different? After demanding specific proof from the other side of the room, that's the kind of silly question you come up with to try and make a point?

 

And you may not consider her to be the most highly regarded, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be in the minority.

 

Brad,

 

While I realize that you love Susan and worship her, and while I hold her in high regard, you can no more support your assertion that she's considered the "best" than I can, so stop making it sound like you can.

 

I'm demanding specific proof because you're the one making the claim as you've been screaming for years. There's nothing new here. Do you know what's happened since you began your campaign?

 

More people have started pressing books.

My name isn't Brad...so you're going to have to try barking up a different tree, FK.

 

And you must not be a morning person, because the arguments you were making last night were far more coherent than todays. And as I mentioned before, the pressers are the one manipulating the books and claiming little or no damage. The burden of proof lies on them to back up THEIR claims. Not us.

 

No, you are the infamous Redhook. You can deny it Brad, but it's you.

 

I don't think this is Brad. Clearly it's someone's shill, but RedHook was generally quite intelligent and could form a reasonable argument (albeit blinded by ideals at times). This guy couldn't think his way out of a paper bag.

I've been able to make you look pretty silly.

 

I do feel really silly for even trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. I should have realized you were just plain stupid from the get go. I've already stated my regret for doing that. I've been suckered into the age-old trap of arguing with a buffoon.

[Foolkiller]

I suggest we just call Domo Brad until we find out who he really is. I'm sure it's a banned member, and as we just saw, it's so easy to get Domo off his point with something so simple it's entertaining.

 

He's like a little simple toy for our amusement, I enjoyed this. It was so easy to tweak him it's comical.

 

That said, I've got to go back to work, this was fun and entertaining to so easily toy with such a insufficiently_thoughtful_person, it's completely ruined any credibility he ever had. And God, it was just so easy.

 

I'm actually getting back to work, too. I spent so much time in this thread yesterday that I didn't get any comics pressed - Oops! I mean I didn't get any work done.

 

And just FYI dum-dum domo, I already emailed with Brad and let him know that I was just messing with Domo. It's funny because you're such a whack job that you're so easily distracted.

 

Enjoy the rest of your thread battling it out and wasting your time. Don't worry, I'm gonna let you have the last word.

[Dale Roberts]

I'd prefer to take a large amount of your money.

 

Or you could just try dealing with the issues instead of attempting to attack or discredit the individual.

 

Okay Brad, well I'm going to go on assuming it's you until you prove otherwise.

Ok. Have fun with that.

 

Thanks Brad, I will.

You're welcome, Dupcak.

 

That's the difference Brad, everyone knows who I am, but nobody knows who you are. You claim you're not Brad, but you are, so you just look stupid saying Dupcak. Unless of course you simply identify who you are, which you refuse to do.

Shall we settle on a specific dollar amount now?

 

Or are you just going to continue with the childish accusations?

 

I'm just going to continue Brad.

Works for me, Dupcak.

 

You are a complete fool

And yet I'm still able to look down on you with contempt.

 

Watch your words, sir--for your own sake. An angry Dale Roberts could tear these boards asunder.

 

You wouldn't like me when I am ANGRY

 

The wisdom of King Solomon....

[Domo Arigato]

I suggest we just call Domo Brad until we find out who he really is. I'm sure it's a banned member, and as we just saw, it's so easy to get Domo off his point with something so simple it's entertaining.

 

He's like a little simple toy for our amusement, I enjoyed this. It was so easy to tweak him it's comical.

 

That said, I've got to go back to work, this was fun and entertaining to so easily toy with such a insufficiently_thoughtful_person, it's completely ruined any credibility he ever had. And God, it was just so easy.

You think calling me Brad is going to "get to me". By all means...everyone feel free to do so in here. It's a lot better than my real name and I promise I won't report anyone for doing something so silly and harmless.

 

Beside...I do like that idea of calling you Dupcak from now on. I'd say it's a good trade.

[buttock]

 

Watch your words, sir--for your own sake. A gassy Dale Roberts could tear his pants asunder.

 

[Domo Arigato]

so, the most highly regarded, most experience comic book restorian considers pressing restoration...

 

That's not exactly breaking news. That declaration is years old, and she released it when she became involved in NOD.

But the fact still remains true and is appropriate for this discussion since many in here are claiming otherwise. Likely the most highly regarded, most experienced comic book restoration expert in the world considers pressing to be restoration and should be proactively disclosed.

 

If she had gone to work for CGC (a job for which she was turned down for per Borock) would her position be the same?

 

Susan is a highly regarded professional, I but I no longer consider her to be the most highly regarded, though I do believe she is obviously in the top tier.

How is anyone supposed to guess what someone elses position might have been if a particular situation had been different? After demanding specific proof from the other side of the room, that's the kind of silly question you come up with to try and make a point?

 

And you may not consider her to be the most highly regarded, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be in the minority.

 

Brad,

 

While I realize that you love Susan and worship her, and while I hold her in high regard, you can no more support your assertion that she's considered the "best" than I can, so stop making it sound like you can.

 

I'm demanding specific proof because you're the one making the claim as you've been screaming for years. There's nothing new here. Do you know what's happened since you began your campaign?

 

More people have started pressing books.

My name isn't Brad...so you're going to have to try barking up a different tree, FK.

 

And you must not be a morning person, because the arguments you were making last night were far more coherent than todays. And as I mentioned before, the pressers are the one manipulating the books and claiming little or no damage. The burden of proof lies on them to back up THEIR claims. Not us.

 

Brad,

I'm a turd head when it comes to proper debate, but if memory serves,

from my high school days, that burden of proof must be demonstrated by those

forwarding the arguement counter to the standard accepted norm.

If you are saying, as 40+ pages continue, that pressing IS detrimental,

then, where is that proof ? Sorry, Susan's opinion or Brian's, or anyone

else's OPINION doesn't matter. Where is the physical evidence ?

CapFreak,

I agree with the part about you being a turd head. You are claiming that the "pressing causes no harm" is the standard accepted norm. Per your own specifications, the burden of proof now lies on you to back that claim up. Where is your evidence?

Brad,

Evidence is in my third bedroom in my personal collection of comic books

and many many many were pressed 30 years ago. I don't see any problems

with them today. And they have not decayed. I'm especially proud of the

Tom and Jerry's and Our Gang. Sorry, I see no problem.

CapFreak,

Please post the proof.

[conditionfreak]

Clearly the pro pressers have lost this debate. The evidence is mounting against them, by the day.

 

Yet. They cling to their original stance that pressing is not restoration and does no harm to a book.

 

I can only sumise the reasons for this are one or all of the below.

 

1) stubborness

2) hate to lose

3) monetary reasons

4) embarrassment factor

5) personality conflicts with those making the opposite assertions

6) Susan, the Library of Congress conservator and common sense, all haven't a clue concerning this subject (or are liars)

 

This debate is over. But nothing has changed. In the pursuit of monetary gain, the pressers will continue to do business in the usual manner. The anti-pressers will continue to avoid pressed books. There are many in the middle (like me), that will not let a pressed book hinder a deal, as long as disclosure is given. If disclosure is not given and it is found out that the seller KNEW, then the seller will be looked upon by us (me) as a fraudulent person.

 

Constantly stating "prove it" is not how to win a debate. I can not prove that my copy of ASM #1 is not a forgery. I can not prove that OJ killed his wife and another. I can not prove that sound exists from a tree falling and no one is there to hear it.

 

But I know the answers to thses questions, in my heart and in my intellect. They are (in order), it is, he did, and yes there is sound.

 

Yes. The anti-pressers have won this debate, this time. It is over and decided.

 

Unless of course one of the six categories above are in the equation.

 

 

 

 

Some diffinitions:

 

sound: mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 ft. (331 m) per second at sea level.

 

press: to compress or squeeze, as to alter in shape or size

[FlyingDonut]

[Flaming_Telepath]

This is the reason that CGC give for not considering it restoration...it can't be detected...but that seems to be untrue.

 

That's not their reasoning for not considering it resto, Nick. They consider pressing a non-additive procedure, and that's why they don't consider it resto. It's right in their FAQ.

 

Jeff, to the best of my knowledge, CGC's original stance revolved around their inability to detect it (if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around...). This evolved...got finessed, if you will...over time and I would ask why this should be? Why did it need finessing?

 

Nick, even if you're right, what does their original stance have to do with anything? Their current FAQ on the topic is not new, it's at least several years old. It's the only policy that holds any relevance.

 

Jeff, this is actually the whole crux of the matter.

 

CGC policy, the attitude of the market, the changes in Overstreet...all of this has been done for simple gravy train expedience. Nothing else.

 

They haven't debated this issue as we have. They haven't viewed the ethical ramifications. They haven't taken into consideration the views of the buying public.

 

This is purely an exercise in making money. It's that simple and changing the argument to justify the end result is how it's been all along.

 

So, just to be clear, your post claiming that CGC can detect pressing but doesn't want to was based on something that hasn't been a part of their FAQ for years?

 

No. If Susan can detect pressing in most cases, I believe CGC can too, with probably the same success rate as they have with trimming.

 

My point is that CGC realised that their original assertion that it's undetectable was looking for trouble, so it was finessed to allow them to continue not to look for it.

 

Because they don't want to look for it, because if they did, there's about two dozen applecarts waiting to be tipped over.

 

Nick, It is not 2 dozen applecarts. Do you realize that it would destroy the credibility of CGC to change their stance on pressing at this point? No certification would be worth a grain of salt. All of the hundreds of millions of dollars which have poured into the hobby and into certified books would be worthless. It would completely destroy not only their business, but the viability of the hobby itself.

 

If Susan can do this, why doesn't she start up her own certification business?

 

I'm not certain it would be quite so disastrous, but it would get awful messy.

 

But is that really the point? If a business has set itself up on an unsafe premise, should we all accept it because said business would go down the tubes as a consequence of us not drinking the Kool-Aid?

 

Given that pressing is the least invasive form of restoration and that it's accepted by a great number of people, I don't think everything would suddenly be worthless, but accept there would be some major adjustments. One of those major adjustments would be the rise of 100% unmanipulated books to the top of the heap in terms of desirability.

 

And surely that's the right order of things?

[mica]

Clearly the pro pressers have lost this debate. The evidence is mounting against them, by the day.

Both sides are silly for declaring the other side has lost the debate. An ongoing debate is by definition ongoing.

[Domo Arigato]

I've been able to make you look pretty silly.

 

I do feel really silly for even trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. I should have realized you were just plain stupid from the get go. I've already stated my regret for doing that. I've been suckered into the age-old trap of arguing with a buffoon.

I never saw you present any reason in your conversation. And the only way you could argue with a bufoon and have the slightest chance of winning is if you were to yell at a mirror.

[buttock]

I've been able to make you look pretty silly.

 

I do feel really silly for even trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. I should have realized you were just plain stupid from the get go. I've already stated my regret for doing that. I've been suckered into the age-old trap of arguing with a buffoon.

I never saw you present any reason in your conversation. And the only way you could argue with a bufoon and have the slightest chance of winning is if you were to yell at a mirror.

 

Oh Snap! You got me there. The old, "No I'm not, you are!"

 

Damn, I got BURNED.

[Domo Arigato]

I suggest we just call Domo Brad until we find out who he really is. I'm sure it's a banned member, and as we just saw, it's so easy to get Domo off his point with something so simple it's entertaining.

 

He's like a little simple toy for our amusement, I enjoyed this. It was so easy to tweak him it's comical.

 

That said, I've got to go back to work, this was fun and entertaining to so easily toy with such a insufficiently_thoughtful_person, it's completely ruined any credibility he ever had. And God, it was just so easy.

 

I'm actually getting back to work, too. I spent so much time in this thread yesterday that I didn't get any comics pressed - Oops! I mean I didn't get any work done.

 

And just FYI dum-dum domo, I already emailed with Brad and let him know that I was just messing with Domo. It's funny because you're such a whack job that you're so easily distracted.

 

Enjoy the rest of your thread battling it out and wasting your time. Don't worry, I'm gonna let you have the last word.

Very mature, Dupcak. And yeah...you never "really" thought I was Brad...you were just messing around. Sure thing. That doesn't sound made up at all.

 

And if any of you actually think you've raised my blood pressure in the slightest, then you're delusional about far more than just the effects of pressing.

[Dale Roberts]

 

Watch your words, sir--for your own sake. A gassy Dale Roberts could tear his pants asunder.

 

 

 

been there, done that

[BlowUpTheMoon]

 

No, you are the infamous Redhook. You can deny it Brad, but it's you.

 

Would you care to put a large amount of money where your mouth is?

 

 

Now it's getting interesting.

[conditionfreak]

Clearly the pro pressers have lost this debate. The evidence is mounting against them, by the day.

Both sides are silly for declaring the other side has lost the debate. An ongoing debate is by definition ongoing.

 

No. Not really.

They have lost. It is ongoing only out of pride. It is ongoing only in the aspect that who killed JFK is ongoing. Not really in dispute any longer but humans like to require confessions, and even then, will not accept an opposing view if they have made up their minds. It's like some guy sitting in his easy chair watching a football game. He decides that a coach made a dumb call and chides him for a year about it (to his buddies). But the coach didn't make a dumb call. It just happened to not work out the way the coach and the fan wanted it to. If it would have worked out, it would have been a great call.

 

I am the fan. The consumer of many of these comic book thingys, and I say that the debate is over "for me". I started out with an open mind about it when I joined this forum. Prior to that, I really didn't have a clue about pressing and had no opionion one way or the other. I collect, buy and sell comic books. My opinion counts. My OPINION now is that this debate is no longer a legitimate debate. Just noise.

 

The debate is won. But, it is a minor thing IMO. I do not believe that pressing is that pressing.

[Domo Arigato]

I've been able to make you look pretty silly.

 

I do feel really silly for even trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. I should have realized you were just plain stupid from the get go. I've already stated my regret for doing that. I've been suckered into the age-old trap of arguing with a buffoon.

I never saw you present any reason in your conversation. And the only way you could argue with a bufoon and have the slightest chance of winning is if you were to yell at a mirror.

 

Oh Snap! You got me there. The old, "No I'm not, you are!"

 

Damn, I got BURNED.

No...no...no!!! Don't say that into a mirror. You'll both lose.

[Dale Roberts]

This is the reason that CGC give for not considering it restoration...it can't be detected...but that seems to be untrue.

 

That's not their reasoning for not considering it resto, Nick. They consider pressing a non-additive procedure, and that's why they don't consider it resto. It's right in their FAQ.

 

Jeff, to the best of my knowledge, CGC's original stance revolved around their inability to detect it (if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around...). This evolved...got finessed, if you will...over time and I would ask why this should be? Why did it need finessing?

 

Nick, even if you're right, what does their original stance have to do with anything? Their current FAQ on the topic is not new, it's at least several years old. It's the only policy that holds any relevance.

 

Jeff, this is actually the whole crux of the matter.

 

CGC policy, the attitude of the market, the changes in Overstreet...all of this has been done for simple gravy train expedience. Nothing else.

 

They haven't debated this issue as we have. They haven't viewed the ethical ramifications. They haven't taken into consideration the views of the buying public.

 

This is purely an exercise in making money. It's that simple and changing the argument to justify the end result is how it's been all along.

 

So, just to be clear, your post claiming that CGC can detect pressing but doesn't want to was based on something that hasn't been a part of their FAQ for years?

 

No. If Susan can detect pressing in most cases, I believe CGC can too, with probably the same success rate as they have with trimming.

 

My point is that CGC realised that their original assertion that it's undetectable was looking for trouble, so it was finessed to allow them to continue not to look for it.

 

Because they don't want to look for it, because if they did, there's about two dozen applecarts waiting to be tipped over.

 

Nick, It is not 2 dozen applecarts. Do you realize that it would destroy the credibility of CGC to change their stance on pressing at this point? No certification would be worth a grain of salt. All of the hundreds of millions of dollars which have poured into the hobby and into certified books would be worthless. It would completely destroy not only their business, but the viability of the hobby itself.

 

If Susan can do this, why doesn't she start up her own certification business?

 

I'm not certain it would be quite so disastrous, but it would get awful messy.

 

But is that really the point? If a business has set itself up on an unsafe premise, should we all accept it because said business would go down the tubes as a consequence of us not drinking the Kool-Aid?

 

Given that pressing is the least invasive form of restoration and that it's accepted by a great number of people, I don't think everything would suddenly be worthless, but accept there would be some major adjustments. One of those major adjustments would be the rise of 100% unmanipulated books to the top of the heap in terms of desirability.

 

And surely that's the right order of things?

 

Whether or not CGC has set itself up on an unsafe premise is for the public to decide, not you. Yours is strictly an opinion, as is mine. The public as a whole has accepted CGC and with them their definition of pressing as a non restorative process. The majority has spoken already on this, and whether or not you accept it, the majority of people agree with CGC and disagree with you. Doesn't make it "right", but it does make it how it is.

 

You can keep dreaming about your 100% unmanipulated books being worth a fortune (nothing in my collection has ever been pressed (to my knowledge) either), but it is never going to happen.

 

And to correct something you said, pressing is not the least invasive form of anything. It is completely 100% non invasive.

 

OK, now you can point out my mistakes.

[mica]

 

No, you are the infamous Redhook. You can deny it Brad, but it's you.

 

Would you care to put a large amount of money where your mouth is?

 

 

Now it's getting interesting.

It was for a minute, but now there's too much "bulldog" in the posts. Neither taking a break.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Clearly the pro pressers have lost this debate. The evidence is mounting against them, by the day.

Both sides are silly for declaring the other side has lost the debate. An ongoing debate is by definition ongoing.

 

No. Not really.

They have lost. It is ongoing only out of pride. It is ongoing only in the aspect that who killed JFK is ongoing. Not really in dispute any longer but humans like to require confessions, and even then, will not accept an opposing view if they have made up their minds. It's like some guy sitting in his easy chair watching a football game. He decides that a coach made a dumb call and chides him for a year about it (to his buddies). But the coach didn't make a dumb call. It just happened to not work out the way the coach and the fan wanted it to. If it would have worked out, it would have been a great call.

 

I am the fan. The consumer of many of these comic book thingys, and I say that the debate is over "for me". I started out with an open mind about it when I joined this forum. Prior to that, I really didn't have a clue about pressing and had no opionion one way or the other. I collect, buy and sell comic books. My opinion counts. My OPINION now is that this debate is no longer a legitimate debate. Just noise.

 

The debate is won. But, it is a minor thing IMO. I do not believe that pressing is that pressing.

 

What exactly was the debate, again?