Do you think this book should have been graded lower by CGC?

[fantastic_four]

- CGC grades golden age books differently.

- CGC rather prefers Wonder Woman to Spider-man.

 

I can't take any of these "here's the grade my book with a shadow got, CGC definitely downgraded it due to the shadow" examples as evidence of anything, as we don't know that other defects aren't the reason the grade is the way it is.

[VintageComics]

- CGC grades golden age books differently.

- CGC rather prefers Wonder Woman to Spider-man.

 

I can't take any of these "here's the grade my book with a shadow got, CGC definitely downgraded it due to the shadow" examples as evidence of anything, as we don't know that other defects aren't the reason the grade is the way it is.

 

There were some Mound City books that looked NM in the holder but were graded in the VF range by CGC for whatever reasons.

 

That's why the "grade it from a scan" idea is never going to be accurate. You have to assume that you see everything in the scan when in fact you can be completely wrong.

 

[DrWatson]

Will be back with the answer in about 15 minutes,

the time for me to brush my teeth and have a shower (not bad for a french, isn't it?)

 

No mention of under arm deoderant, very chic, very French.

 

I always under arm deodorant, but only in the morning (if only my neighbors in the train could do the same )

After this very interesting hygienic interlude, now back to the subject:

 

 

What i deduct from that is:

 

- CGC grades golden age books differently.

- CGC rather prefers Wonder Woman to Spider-man.

What I deduct from this is that it needs to be pressed.

[Silver Surfer]

I was going to say 9.0, I just threw out the 7.5 for giggles. Having said that SA would for sure get hammered more than a GA book for a dust shadow.

[Sal]

 

I spoke to Tracey Heft about this a few months ago.

 

Sun shadow/oxidation shadow: oxidation of the paper from exposure to light and air. Usually a small, darkened strip on one or more edges of the book. Might be removable or at least minimizable by washing and/or bleaching.

 

Dust shadow: usually occurs on books stored flat in piles. The dust shadow is a darkened strip where part of book was exposed to dust particles as they fell. The dust gets ingrained in the paper fibers, leaving a darkened strip. Can sometimes be dry cleaned away. Washing may set the stain and make it impossible to remove.

 

Tanning: caused by breakdowns in the cellulose chains in paper, which result in increased acidity and a darkening in newsprint and cover stock. Tends be an "all over" thing or at the very least a gradual change from tanned to untanned, with the outer edges of the folio being darker than the interior portions. Often occurs on both sides of the folio, unlike sun shadows and dust shadows, which affect only the exposed side. Usually removable by washing and/or bleaching.

 

[supapimp]

Will be back with the answer in about 15 minutes,

the time for me to brush my teeth and have a shower (not bad for a french, isn't it?)

 

No mention of under arm deoderant, very chic, very French.

 

I always under arm deodorant, but only in the morning (if only my neighbors in the train could do the same )

After this very interesting hygienic interlude, now back to the subject:

 

 

What i deduct from that is:

 

- CGC grades golden age books differently.

- CGC rather prefers Wonder Woman to Spider-man.

What I deduct from this is that it needs to be pressed.

 

yeah. that book does not look 9.4 to me.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think the color change is simply more rapid aging of the paper due to exposure.

 

Discoloration of the paper due to aging is called "tanning," and it is visible on both sides of the paper, not just one like shadows are.

 

No, that is not precisely correct.

 

If a book is in a stack, then there is going to be pressure keeping the other side of the paper from being exposed.

 

Hence the discoloration on only one side. Dust tends to be varying colors, depending on its makeup, but all the "dust shadows" I have ever seen have been beige-brown. Why, then, is that?

 

Like I said, I've seen paper products with dust from literally 40 years sitting on them, wiped away...no problems.

 

I don't think it's as simple as "just dust."

[Sal]

read my post supra

[TheWatcher]

dust shadows and sun shadows aren't the same thing, iirc.

 

would think a sun shadow would be non-removable and thus affect the grade more than a dust shadow

 

Looking at the Terminology section at Classics Inc , the definition of dust shadow is "Darker, usually linear area at the edge of some comics stored in stacks. Some portion of the cover was not covered by the comic immediately above in and it was exposed to settling dust particles". As opposed to a sun shadow "Darker, usually linear area at the edge of some comics stored in stacks. Some portion of the cover was not covered by the comic immediately above it, and it suffered prolonged exposure to light. A serious defect, unlike a Dust Shadow, which can some-times be removed"

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

dust shadows and sun shadows aren't the same thing, iirc.

 

would think a sun shadow would be non-removable and thus affect the grade more than a dust shadow

 

Looking at the Terminology section at Classics Inc , the definition of dust shadow is "Darker, usually linear area at the edge of some comics stored in stacks. Some portion of the cover was not covered by the comic immediately above in and it was exposed to settling dust particles". As opposed to a sun shadow "Darker, usually linear area at the edge of some comics stored in stacks. Some portion of the cover was not covered by the comic immediately above it, and it suffered prolonged exposure to light. A serious defect, unlike a Dust Shadow, which can some-times be removed"

 

 

It sounds like they're remarkably similar. The difference, then, is whereas a "sun shadow" bleaches whatever colors in the area affected, a "dust shadow" would not, no?

 

Wouldn't ANY book that was exposed to the sun for any length of time in a stack also by definition be exposed to dust? Can we name a natural environment that is dust free?

 

Still, I think there is more going on than simply dust landing and becoming "ingrained" in the paper that leaves these shadows. Again...all the dust shadows I've seen have all been beige-brown...and dust comes in many different colors. I still believe it's an oxidation ("aging") process, rather than a "dust particle" effect.

 

 

 

[Sal]

i swear, sometimes it feels as though i'm talking to myself.

 

read my post right about supapimp's quoted ASM post.

[VintageComics]

i swear, sometimes it feels as though i'm talking to myself.

 

read my post right about supapimp's quoted ASM post.

 

Sorry, can you please step aside? I can't see what RMA is saying. Thanks.

 

[VintageComics]

 

 

 

I spoke to Tracey Heft about this a few months ago.

 

Sun shadow/oxidation shadow: oxidation of the paper from exposure to light and air. Usually a small, darkened strip on one or more edges of the book. Might be removable or at least minimizable by washing and/or bleaching.

 

Dust shadow: usually occurs on books stored flat in piles. The dust shadow is a darkened strip where part of book was exposed to dust particles as they fell. The dust gets ingrained in the paper fibers, leaving a darkened strip. Can sometimes be dry cleaned away. Washing may set the stain and make it impossible to remove.

 

Tanning: caused by breakdowns in the cellulose chains in paper, which result in increased acidity and a darkening in newsprint and cover stock. Tends be an "all over" thing or at the very least a gradual change from tanned to untanned, with the outer edges of the folio being darker than the interior portions. Often occurs on both sides of the folio, unlike sun shadows and dust shadows, which affect only the exposed side. Usually removable by washing and/or bleaching.

[RockMyAmadeus]

i swear, sometimes it feels as though i'm talking to myself.

 

read my post right about supapimp's quoted ASM post.

 

Sorry, can you please step aside? I can't see what RMA is saying. Thanks.

 

 

[VintageComics]

i swear, sometimes it feels as though i'm talking to myself.

 

read my post right about supapimp's quoted ASM post.

 

Sorry, can you please step aside? I can't see what RMA is saying. Thanks.

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

I may be making an assumption, but I think there are actually three different things going on.

 

A sun shadow should actually be called a sun fade. The exposure to prolonged sunlight irreversibly bleaches the exposed area. Very bad.

 

Dust build-up from prolonged exposure can possibly be cleaned or lightened. And as long as there is no staining to the underlying area it is not as bad.

 

The third thing is books that have not necessarily had either type of exposure but still display what we call a "dust shadow". Particularly Church books. My feeling is that the discoloration is more a result of lack of pressure on those exposed edges. Compression is the primary reason the body of those books remained as white as they did. The weight from stacking inhibited paper degradation except in those areas that stuck out from the stacks. So the exposed areas, where the acids would more likely migrate to, would be more likely to discolor. That discoloration is just a natural aging of the paper.

 

And if an over all cream to off-white book can grade a 9.4 then I would think a book that is cream to off-white in just one small area should also be able to grade a 9.4.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The third thing is books that have not necessarily had either type of exposure but still display what we call a "dust shadow". Particularly Church books. My feeling is that the discoloration is more a result of lack of pressure on those exposed edges. Compression is the primary reason the body of those books remained as white as they did. The weight from stacking inhibited paper degradation except in those areas that stuck out from the stacks. So the exposed areas, where the acids would more likely migrate to, would be more likely to discolor. That discoloration is just a natural aging of the paper.

.

 

That's pretty much where I am on the matter, and I think it bears out.

 

 

If a Church book (or any other book) had spent all that time suspended in air, I think the entire back cover would be a uniform "no longer white", the same color as "the dust shadow area" is....

 

I was always suspicious about "dust shadows" when I first discovered books that had dust lines, for years, but which left no discoloration of the paper whatsoever when the dust was wiped away.

[Currin Comics]

That book is at tops a VFNM 9.0, now until CGC releases thier grading criteria, lets go back and lean on the basis for their standards OSGG. The writing is not incospicuos or non-obtrusive, it's damn near front and center, also minor foxing is allowed in the VFNM grade and that dust/sun shadow is heavier than minor foxing. I firmly do not believe in seperate "guidelines" for GA through to MA, if so, let's have grading tier acceptance wholly slotted for Age-GA through to MA. The fact that that book....GA or not pulled a NM 9.4 is simply and outrage to anyone worth their weight at grading a comic book. If grading books is their job, well that book is a job very poorly done or flat out botched or still worse a "favor for auction grade" Horrible, simply horrible job on that book.

[Ze-man]

nope

 

Well said Rick.

 

 

 

[The Question?]

 

 

 

(thumbs u

 

 

I concur!