Clean, press, resubmit, flip...clean, press, resubmit, flip...

[sfilosa]

You could have a beautiful NM- GA book that has a small spine split sealed (to preserve the book from further damage).

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I never understand this point: if you had a 9.4 GA book that had already suffered such a spine split, why get it glued back together? The answer you gave is to prevent further damage, right? But If I own this great book, I just wouldnt be handing it all that much, and therefore, the rip would never get worse. I mean, its not oing to continue ripping slowly sitting in its mylar is it?? And being a great comic in my collection, Im not going to read it repeatedly (or even take it out) , or give it to the kids to read...... so why restore it??

 

 

How long have you collected comic books?

 

NO ONE WOULD DO IT TODAY. Simply because they know the book would be worth a whole lot less.

 

But twenty years ago it was acceptable (if not prudent) to do this to prevent further damage.

 

 

[awe4one]

Tricky stuff. To imagine that CGC invented this issue, is to ignore the fundamental connection it has to collecting, and to ignore the long history of these debates in other areas.

 

CGC didn't "invent" this issue in my eyes. But it did start when CGC got up and running. The problem is CGC started slabbing comics thus producing an instant collectible. As well as providing easily affordable restoration detection in the process. Now collectors who want to buy a slabbed comic have a certifiable choice on where to put their money. Either one that was proven to be untouched or one that has been altered. Before CGC it was a crapshoot. Either reputable dealers revealed that comics had restoration or you bought unknowingly.

 

Now when slabbed comics reveal clearly that a comic has been altered, collectors have migrated to paying top dollar for the untouched copies. The market has decided this not CGC.

 

Jim

[PovertyRow]

It amazes me that people wax nostalgic on how CGC has destroyed the market for comic books that have restoration. CGC does not create the market for these books, dealers and collectors do.

 

People aren't saying that CGC has destroyed the market for books with restoration. They are saying that CGC has destroyed the market for CGC Slabbed Restored books.

 

The general opinion here is that a book with known restoration and unslabbed will fetch more money than the same book with the PLOD. Many have also expressed that restored books with full disclosure on a CGC Blue label would feth more than the purple label.

 

I agree.

[fantastic_four]

I actually highlighted it to point out how the CPG forum members were still actively seeking out Hammer's viewpoints on restoration, despite the fact that he has repeatedly evaded answering the question as to whether he was Dupcak (sp?).

 

He's extremely knowledgable and definitely a great person to consult on restoration issues; his response to the question about wonderbread was a great one. You've just got to take his advice like Clarice Starling took the advice of Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of the Lambs"--as great ideas which require secondary validation from another source. You never know when he's going to intentionally mislead you.

[The_End_At_Last]

The idea of 'ANY RESTORATION SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A DEFECT. And no more!!!!' is where Overstreet used to come from.

 

They would say that the value of the restored book =

 

(value original grade before restoration) + { Factor * (value apparent after restoration - value original grade before restoration) }

 

I can't remember the Factor, it might be 0.25.

 

Thus the effect of the restoration is equivalent to a defect (albeit a hefty one), but the price of the book always went up from the price before restoration. Of course, the cost of restoration might mean that it would be stupid to perfrom the restoration (you would lose out overall).

 

Problems with CGC books are that the price after restoration (PLOD cost) is in some cases LESS than the cost of a similarly pre-restoration graded CGC book. Which can't be right.

 

[fantastic_four]

(value original grade before restoration) + { Factor * (value apparent after restoration - value original grade before restoration) }

 

What percentage of collectors can accurately determine the original grade before restoration? I'd say less than 1%. And even the under-1% who can do it don't have enough information from the label to know exactly where the restoration is, or what its extent is, without calling CGC for every restored book they're considering buying.

 

So in the absence of the required skill and/or information, any buyer of restored comics frequently lowballs to be on the safe side.

[Bullet123]

Why would anyone in there right mind pay more for a dealers opinion as to what restoration has been performed to a book(unslabbed) as opposed to the plod which lets you know(with the graders notes) exactly what has been done to it. The problem with an unslabbed book is that its a conflict of interest for the seller to fully disclose restoration because it devalues the book. I disagree that plod are the kiss of death rather blue labels have distinguished themselves as being the cream of the crop

[Aman619]

I started last November. Why?

 

My point is Ive always felt this way and never had any work done on any book of mine. As Ive said here many times, the value system of comics resides in great part on the condition of the comic as it survives or evades all manner of damage over its lifetime. The ones that miraculously preserve their original pristine condition are worth the most. To me, and now an huge majority of collectors, comics that have had artificial means of restoring their former state are considerably less valued.

 

So that book, whether a collector today got the tear sealed, or if as you imply it was done in a more innocent time, makes no difference. Its a restored book, end of story.

[comicwiz]

Really? Why do you believe this?

 

And if that's the case, shouldn't pressing books tightly together in a comic box be considered restoration. It definitely flattens out the book which changes the book STRUCTURALLY.

 

The examples I used were mostly books that were already in the NM range (albeit NM-); these are books which posses NM qualities, but because the covers are slightly off-centred, or with slight spine rolls from poor storage, are pressed to squeeze out a .2 grade out of it to claim the coveted NM 9.4 premium. This may also apply to books with very minor dust shadowing, or foreign substances which may be removed through dry erasure.

 

I say all the power to anyone who can do this in an expertly fashion. But the operative word is "expert." The problem is one where collectors/specs sitting on the sidelines witnessing these improvements, and noting how such improvements translate into higher returns on resubmit, may take it to the degree of experimenting with the idea of doing this themselves for profit. They pick up a few Gerber eraser pouches, some wonderbread , and a couple of concrete cinder-blocks, and off they go. My point was more about whether this kind of improvement was really necessary. And that the intention behind such practices are mostly guided by greed in the name of garnering higher premiums. If enough people get the idea that its "cool" to take a NM- copy of something, press it/clean it, then along the way, I believe that this kind of practice and perception will harm the comic market. Incidentally, this is the same rhetoric which motivates and drives many amatuer restorers to butcher VF/VF+ comics so that they may try to fool someone into believing they are actually buying a NM comic.

 

I for one say leave the books as they are, especially if they are already in high grade condition (VF and up).

[PovertyRow]

Why would anyone in there right mind pay more for a dealers opinion as to what restoration has been performed to a book(unslabbed) as opposed to the plod which lets you know(with the graders notes) exactly what has been done to it. The problem with an unslabbed book is that its a conflict of interest for the seller to fully disclose restoration because it devalues the book. I disagree that plod are the kiss of death rather blue labels have distinguished themselves as being the cream of the crop

 

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

[Rip]

I figure this place is as good as any to ask this.

What color label would a double cover book get if the outer cover had some work done on it...

but the inner cover had none?

[Mushroom]

PLOD

[sfilosa]

My point is Ive always felt this way and never had any work done on any book of mine. As Ive said here many times, the value system of comics resides in great part on the condition of the comic as it survives or evades all manner of damage over its lifetime. The ones that miraculously preserve their original pristine condition are worth the most. To me, and now an huge majority of collectors, comics that have had artificial means of restoring their former state are considerably less valued.

 

So that book, whether a collector today got the tear sealed, or if as you imply it was done in a more innocent time, makes no difference. Its a restored book, end of story.

 

You continue to miss the ENTIRE POINT.

How is a Very Good copy CLOSER to it's ORIGINAL PRISTINE STATE (as you said), than a Very Fine book with a small tear seal?

 

 

IT ISN"T.

 

Are the oils from your fingers embedded on a book, the tanning of cover from exposure to sun, and the multiple creases on the cover really more desirable to have on a book, then a book with none of these flaws but an intentional amount of glue has been put on a tear to preserve the book?

 

THE ANSWER SHOULD BE NO.

 

[WernerVonDoom]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

[sborock]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

THANK YOU!

[Aman619]

I see what you are saying... A VF with a touch of glue IS "closer" to its original state. But only as far as "damage" is concerened. But incidental damage is very different from intentional work/repair/cosmetic enhancement.

 

The PURPOSE of work done on a comic is to enhance its appearance.

The damage done to a comic over time is IRREVOCABLE, (IMO.)

 

BUT - - eventually, I can see a softening of attitudes toward work to allow cases such as the one we are talking about here. SOmeday, that book will be almost as good as an untouched or ripped VF copy, not 10% as good as they are viewed today.

[PovertyRow]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

That may well be, but the arguments would certainly sound sillier. Restoration HAS to be disclosed. I doubt anyone would disagree with that (except for a few ebay sellers). But I also think it cannot be denied that more books with slight restoration in the Blue holders sell than PLOD books with similar amounts of restoration - and for one reason - the purple label sticks out like a PLOD.

[sfilosa]

see what you are saying... A VF with a touch of glue IS "closer" to its original state. But only as far as "damage" is concerened. But incidental damage is very different from intentional work/repair/cosmetic enhancement.

 

The PURPOSE of work done on a comic is to enhance its appearance.

The damage done to a comic over time is IRREVOCABLE, (IMO.)

 

BUT - - eventually, I can see a softening of attitudes toward work to allow cases such as the one we are talking about here. SOmeday, that book will be almost as good as an untouched or ripped VF copy, not 10% as good as they are viewed today.

 

 

OK, now that I almost got you convinced, I have a few Restored books that I want to sell you.

 

 

 

Seriously, the amount of restoration (and quality to a certain degree), needs to be factored into the COLLECTIBLITY VALUE of the book. Right now, any amount of restoration / preservation, even if it really has ZERO IMPACT on the grade, has reduced the COLLECTIBILTY VALUE to almost nothing.

 

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

THANK YOU!

 

Awwwww are we getting fwustwated?

[Rip]