Clean, press, resubmit, flip...clean, press, resubmit, flip...

[lighthouse]

If you follow though on some of LOGIC around here, there are Virtually NO unrestored books. Putting a book in a Mylar flattens the book. Not to the same extent but IT DOES flatten the book. OR should only degrees of "flattening" count.

 

How about nothing more than 100 psi (pounds per square inch) pressure for more than 1 minute? Or is that too imprecise?

 

You do realize you could put a 3-ton weight on a comic and not achieve that level of pressure?

 

Even 2 or 3 psi on a comic will have a noticeable effect. A comic under a 150lb stack of books is only 2 psi...

 

But I do agree somewhat with the premise...

[PovertyRow]

What's PRA?

 

Professional Restorer's Association (but I made all that stuff up)

[fantastic_four]

You do realize you could put a 3-ton weight on a comic and not achieve that level of pressure?

 

Nah, didn't realize, I don't use PSIs to measure anything as a programmer. I wonder how many PSIs people use safely with those book presses used to do pressing? I need to get me one of those.

[goldust40]

I guess that means that you're not going to run out and buy a PSI measurement device to stick in the middle of your comic boxes and onto the bottom of your tallest comic stacks to make sure you aren't accidentally pressing your comics too much? For SHAME!!

 

Come to think of it, there's probably a market for such a device. It'd be misused though.

[lighthouse]

You do realize you could put a 3-ton weight on a comic and not achieve that level of pressure?

 

Nah, didn't realize, I don't use PSIs to measure anything as a programmer. I wonder how many PSIs people use safely with those book presses used to do pressing? I need to get me one of those.

 

I had a chance to buy one when a local university was having an equipment sale, but I didn't pick it up... I was too busy buying steel folding chairs for 25 cents a piece.

 

A typical comic has a surface area of around 75 sq in. on the front cover. So anything over 5psi is the equivalent of a lot of weight on the book.

[garthgantu]

I think the best example of logic of this nature (in other words, totally over-the-top) is the "hey, what if I purposely create tape-pulls to get rid of the spots of color-touch on a cover? Is THAT restoration?"

 

I'd also note this: that CGC, by not clearly defining all the parameters by which it determines whether a book is 'restored' - and if in fact it's restored, whether it gets the PLOD - is doing a disservice to the entire comic book back issue market. How can you hope to educate people on the whys and wherefores of restoration, if the company that decides whether a book is restored won't provide full disclosure?

 

Now CGC may say "well, if we told everyone everything about our views on restoration, some nefarious types would game the system." Or CGC might say "we can't define restoration exactly, but we know it when we see it." Or they might say "hey, we're a de facto monopoly - you want full disclosure, go use one of the third-tier grading services." None of these responses are acceptable, IMHO.

 

CGC has not only an opportunity, but a duty, to bring the restoration issue to heel, and if that were done properly they could further burnish their own reputation, I believe. If you want to be the official arbiter of comic book grading - and that includes restoration in all its myriad forms - you at some point have to provide a 'rule book' so others can fathom your reasoning at the deepest levels.

[goldust40]

Not that I wish to muddy the waters further, nor am I necessarily disagreeing with you, but if CGC were to disclose their guidelines, the problem would be the probability of (mis)interpretation throughout the marketplace. Plus there's the relationship between grade and various levels of restoration (both professional and amateur), which has been the subject of many hotly debated threads.

 

Above all trying to provide rules or parameters for resto would be difficult, simply because like grading, it's an art as well as a science.

[PovertyRow]

Above all trying to provide rules or parameters for resto would be difficult, simply because like grading, it's an art as well as a science.

 

Very true. It also brings up the aesthitcs of the individual collector. As has often been discussed, a small properly placed date stamp has no impact on a high grade book, but a lot of folks shun the stamp. Other folks hate foxing while others loathe spine tears. Truth be told, while I use them in my examples, the concept of Slight, Moderate and Extensive are subject to interpretation by the individual. Also, it can be difficult to decide what is amateur and what is pro restoration. Is it simply the materials involved? An obvious example of amateur restoration would be Elmer's Glue, Scotch Tape and Magic Markers. But in reality those are simply amateur materials and any amateur could readily get professional grade materials for these processes at a well stocked art supply store. So can an amateur using professional materials be readily detcted? The can of worms is mighty tangly!

[lou_fine]

I'd also note this: that CGC, by not clearly defining all the parameters by which it determines whether a book is 'restored' - and if in fact it's restored, whether it gets the PLOD - is doing a disservice to the entire comic book back issue market. How can you hope to educate people on the whys and wherefores of restoration, if the company that decides whether a book is restored won't provide full disclosure?

 

CGC has not only an opportunity, but a duty, to bring the restoration issue to heel, and if that were done properly they could further burnish their own reputation, I believe. If you want to be the official arbiter of comic book grading - and that includes restoration in all its myriad forms - you at some point have to provide a 'rule book' so others can fathom your reasoning at the deepest levels.

 

 

From my point of view, CGC has taken two contradictory approaches when it comes to condition grading and restoration. It currently uses an expanded 10-point grading system for condition, while on the other hand, it uses only a two-tier label system for restoration. This has resulted in a very strong and vibrant market, especially in the high end, whereby the CGC grade (based upon defects) is the critical determining factor in the value of the book. Restored books, on the other hand, has been the victim of a very negative market environment whereby the colour of the label, instead of the type and extent of restoration appears to be the determining factor in the value of the book.

 

The above statement is quite evident in the marketplace whereby blue label books with minor amounts of restoration tends to sell for mulitples of guide, while purple label books with minor amounts of restoration usually sells only at a deep deep discount to guide. The huge price difference here is due more to the colour of the label than the relative minor difference in the amount of restoration between the two books. The stigma of the CGC purple label is more than enough to scare potential buyers away from the book without even paying any attention to the actual restoration details.

 

Many of you argue that the actual restoration itself is the only reason for the depressed prices and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the colour of the label. After all, a restored book is a restored book and that's all there is to it. The above paragraph disproves this argument and this is also reinforce by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts. This argument can also be disproved by common sense through the following imaginery example:

 

Imagine a world whereby all books are graded by condition according to two levels only. Books currently grading 9.4 and above would be consider to be near mint and awarded a blue label without a specific grade. Anything currently grading below a 9.4 would be consider as a defective book and entombed in a purple CGC slab without a specific grade. After all, a defective book is a defective book and that's all there is to it. Nothing to worry about here, since everybody looks at the book when it comes to purchasing and nobody pays any attention to the label. Investors will still continue to pay those outragous multiples for Blazing Bob's early 9.2 FF's even though they are sitting in the exact same CGC ungraded purple cases as the current 2.0 copies of early FF's. Come on people, let's get real here.

 

The above imaginery scenario is in reality the nightmare world which CGC has subjected all restored books to with their current two tier system. In order to rectify this problem which they have inadvertently created, CGC should look at implementing a unified label with the 10-point restoration system originally proposed by Jon Berk. With this system, all unrestored books would be given a rating of R-0, while all restored books would be given a restoration rating from R-1 to R-10 depending upon type and extent of restoration. A formal restoration rating system with restoration notes will allow the collector to more fairly determine the value of a particular book and as a result, make a more informed purchasing decision. After all, since collectors use common sense to placed values on CGC 2.0 books as compared to CGC 9.0 books when it comes to condition, why should they not be provided with information to value R-2 books as compared to R-8 books when it comes to restoration, instead of the current system which simply paints them all with the same purple brush.

 

The 10-point grading system for condition has resulted in the legitimization of the hobby to the external marketplace and a increased knowledge for all collectors with respect to grading and condition. Implementation of a 10-point restoration rating system for all books will be another big step forward for the legitimization of the hobby to both the internal and external marketplace. This will again facilitate increased knowledge for all collectors, this time with respect to the fuzzy world of restoration and finally move the issue of restoration from the world of darkness into the light of full disclosure. IMHO

 

 

[Timely]

 

PM a copy of that to Steve, it's well thought out! I have not heard back from him regarding my original thread to eliminate the PLOD & GLOD.

 

Timely

[THE_BEYONDER]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

[lighthouse]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

 

Strangely enough that's been true more times than I can count...

[THE_BEYONDER]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

 

Strangely enough that's been true more times than I can count...

 

Then it makes sense to crack the slab before selling....and use CGC's restoration notation as disclosure?

 

 

[garthgantu]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

 

Strangely enough that's been true more times than I can count...

 

Obviously, this would still depend on several 'outside factors,' such as who is selling the raw copy... but yes, this does happen, and not unfrequently. I think it's truly an effect of many people 'buying (or in this example, NOT buying) the label' rather than the book. There are buyers who'll at least read thru an auction listing for a raw restored book (in some cases because the seller doesn't mention the resto 'til the bottom of their description), but will just skip a listing that has "Apparent" or "Restored" in the title...

[chrisco37]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

 

Strangely enough that's been true more times than I can count...

 

Then it makes sense to crack the slab before selling....and use CGC's restoration notation as disclosure?

 

 

By Jove! I think he's got it!

 

Chris

[THE_BEYONDER]

... by the fact that raw restored books with full disclosure generally sells for more than their CGC PLOD counterparts.

 

Are you saying that a PLOD 9.2 will go for less than a "raw" 9.2 with full disclosure?

 

Strangely enough that's been true more times than I can count...

 

Then it makes sense to crack the slab before selling....and use CGC's restoration notation as disclosure?

 

 

By Jove! I think he's got it!

 

Chris

 

[lou_fine]

 

PM a copy of that to Steve, it's well thought out! I have not heard back from him regarding my original thread to eliminate the PLOD & GLOD.

 

Timely

 

 

Timely;

 

Just took your advice and PM'd a copy of my post to Steve B. I strongly doubt that we will get a response back from him or CGC since this topic is too hot and has gone into far too much detail during the past week.

[tb]

Captain America 35 currently on eBay

 

Captain America 35 auction March 2003

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Does anyone have strong opinions about what appears to me to be an increasing trend in people having books dry-cleaned and pressed, resubmitted, and then quickly sold if the grade does go up? This game seems to me as if it's a microcosm of the same restoration game played over the last few decades and has the potential to eventually harm the market.

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether I care that a non-color-breaking, non-paper-fibre-breaking bend is ironed out or whether light soiling is wonderbreaded off. But I can't help but wonder whether eventually some CSI-type high-end collector whose day job is in forensics will eventually bring newer techniques to the hobby which allow detection of some of the undetectable types of work being performed today.

 

I don't have any strong opinions, but detecting previously undetected dry-cleaning and pressing would no doubt be a game changer in my humble opinion.

[MustEatBrains]

Does anyone have strong opinions about what appears to me to be an increasing trend in people having books dry-cleaned and pressed, resubmitted, and then quickly sold if the grade does go up? This game seems to me as if it's a microcosm of the same restoration game played over the last few decades and has the potential to eventually harm the market.

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether I care that a non-color-breaking, non-paper-fibre-breaking bend is ironed out or whether light soiling is wonderbreaded off. But I can't help but wonder whether eventually some CSI-type high-end collector whose day job is in forensics will eventually bring newer techniques to the hobby which allow detection of some of the undetectable types of work being performed today.

 

I don't have any strong opinions, but detecting previously undetected dry-cleaning and pressing would no doubt be a game changer in my humble opinion.