BoP #8 - Is it widely recognised as a Key issue?

[fastballspecial]

Make no mistake about it: Birds of Prey #8 is a "key" book solely because the geniuses at Wizard decided to pimp it. 1999 was a BAD year for comics, and there really wasn't a whole lot going on. Nightwing appears in dozens of other books, with similar (or lower) print runs.

 

Listen, if I had a national magazine platform like Wizard, I could make any book I want become "a key", too...all I would need is a reasonable justification, and I'm smart enough to do it.

 

The reason it SUSTAINED it's value and popularity is because of the ridiculously low print run. If it was a 1993 book, no one would give two rusty rat's tails about it.

 

#7, #9, #6, #5, #10...all have similar printruns, yet they sell for nothing.

 

And if someone is going to come along and say "it's key because it's a great story"....

 

Well, I got news for ya: every issue of Sandman, Preacher, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and Grant Morrison's Animal Man is a BETTER story than BOP #8, but you don't see those books selling for a comparable amount relative to print run except their respective (real) keys.

 

I agree with the above as well.

 

But those books dont have a BAT character in the title. Just like the Joe 21 example I used above it has a large built in fan base. Put that together with a good story and a low print run you got a demand. BoP issues are all great in my opinion at least the first 20 or so anyway. That one is special because of the back story relationship and its results.

 

I didnt chase this book because of Wizard I chased just to see how hard it is to actually find off of ebay. I think ebay has now become the most accurate result finder now a days. I think in 9 years of looking in both low and high grade I have found about 9 copies I think.(This doesnt count ebay mind ya you can usually find a copy or two on there at all times.) I never pass up buying even in high grade its a easy flip. Its not the hardest mainstream book to find, but its one of the top 5 I would say from that era around 2000. Is it a key? Not in my definition, but who am I to say I guess. I just know some buyers think it is and told me so when they have bought it.

 

[sd2416]

So basically because it's 10 years old and some people like it for the story makes it a key to them?

 

So basically a book with no words in it and a fight between 2 guys over a girl makes it a key to them? Just a matter of perspective sometimes.

 

 

First appearance of a popular character and ties to that characters orgin and another popular characters origin.

[fastballspecial]

So basically because it's 10 years old and some people like it for the story makes it a key to them?

 

So basically a book with no words in it and a fight between 2 guys over a girl makes it a key to them? Just a matter of perspective sometimes.

 

 

First appearance of a popular character and ties to that characters orgin and another popular characters origin.

 

Oh yeah forgot that part my bad. Wondering when a Joe fan would turn up.

[nickwire]

Umm...Batman 227 is not key for any reason other than the cover--it's actually a sub-par story and I _hate_ that it and # 237 (1st Reaper) have been elevated to key status when 232, 234 and Detective 400 are _actual_ deserving keys..

 

Because of the story and its sustained popularity (and value) over the past decade, Birds of Prey 8 is definitely one of the keys from the early 2000s, and certainly deserves to be more key than its contemporary "key" books like Hulk 8 (Wolverine/Hulk battle), or even Deadpool 54-55 (vs. Punisher).

 

In terms of its importance in the Batman mythos, it's one of the more important (and fun) books of the past 15 years as well.

 

thats my point, i was trying to say that a book does not have to be a 1st app or origin to be a key. i believe a classic cover alone can elevate a book to key. suspence 3 is supposed to be a pretty bad read (not that i'll ever read it) but that cover makes it the key of the series. bats 227 has such a classic cover its definately a key i think, only behind 232, 234 and tec 400 I.M.H.O.

[followtheleader]

Make no mistake about it: Birds of Prey #8 is a "key" book solely because the geniuses at Wizard decided to pimp it. 1999 was a BAD year for comics, and there really wasn't a whole lot going on. Nightwing appears in dozens of other books, with similar (or lower) print runs.

 

Listen, if I had a national magazine platform like Wizard, I could make any book I want become "a key", too...all I would need is a reasonable justification, and I'm smart enough to do it.

 

The reason it SUSTAINED it's value and popularity is because of the ridiculously low print run. If it was a 1993 book, no one would give two rusty rat's tails about it.

 

#7, #9, #6, #5, #10...all have similar printruns, yet they sell for nothing.

 

And if someone is going to come along and say "it's key because it's a great story"....

 

Well, I got news for ya: every issue of Sandman, Preacher, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and Grant Morrison's Animal Man is a BETTER story than BOP #8, but you don't see those books selling for a comparable amount relative to print run except their respective (real) keys.

 

I 100% agree with your assessment.

 

Just keep in mind that both Authority & Planetary came out in 1999. Two fantastic books.

 

Pat

[helionaut]

Not a key. Just because 'something happened' doesn't make it a key. It's just a book that sells for $50.

 

BTW, I thought this thread was discussing Box Office Poison and was wracking my brain for what happened in that issue, but I've only ever read the trade so it was tough to figure out.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Just keep in mind that both Authority & Planetary came out in 1999. Two fantastic books.

 

Pat

True, and they were the head and shoulders standouts of the year. Overall, however, it was one of the drekkiest of dreky years.

 

Spiderman: Chapter One anybody...?

 

This was, after all, a year when Rising Stars was "the big event" of the year.

 

[Gatsby77]

As above--key story involving _Batman_ characters. Is Killing Joke not key for the story as well?

 

In the pantheon of post 1970 Batgirl keys, there's her getting her spine blown out in The Killing Joke, her becoming Oracle, her date with Grayson (Birds of Prey 8) and _maybe_ the first issue of that stupid mute Batgirl in the new number 1.

 

Yes--the book might have found mainstream popularity because Wizard pimped it, but it was also 1) worthy of being pimped and 2) has proven not to be a "flash in the pan" due to its sustained value over years. It also does not take more than 8 years for a key to be determined as such. See ASM 300, Hulk 340, New Mutants 87, etc. Each of these were keys within a year and have remained as such.

 

The surrounding issue print run argument is specious since by that token, Hulk 179 is a whole lot rarer in high grade than 181.

[followtheleader]

I think Killing Joke is more important for two reasons:

 

1. Alan Moore. I don't care who did Nightwing 8, if it wasn't Alan Moore than it's not better or even equal.

 

2. It's arguably one of the best Batman stories ever. That's saying a ton. Is #8 the best in that run? Probably. But that's comparing to really sub-par stuff.

 

One could argue that shooting Batgirl's spine out actually gave appearance to our modern Oracle. We wouldn't even have had Nightwing 8 if not for Killing Joke.

 

Print run does have some factor in a book being key. But I don't think it's something that can be painted across the board. Hell, most of the Amazing Spideys Vol II that are of any value are only based on print run (and a bit of help from Spidey III). Whereas a book like Killing Joke is actually quite plentiful and still does relatively well.

 

Pat

[Boozad]

I would definitely agree that The Killing Joke should be held higher in regard as a 'key' than BoP #8, it is a definiteive moment whereas BoP #8 is not. It is by far a superior book.

 

But although I love TKJ from start to finish, it's not reagarded as a key. neither should BoP #8. Forget who pimped it, there's nothing of recognition to mark it as a key.

[seank]

 

2. It's arguably one of the best Batman stories ever. That's saying a ton. Is #8 the best in that run? Probably. But that's comparing to really sub-par stuff.

 

Having read the entire BoP run, I can definitively say that #8 is not the best story in the run. Some of Gail Simone's work on BoP is much better. (And I'm not rereading every issue to point out any specifics.)

 

Also, Brian Bolland deserves as much credit as Alan Moore for TKJ being a great book.

[Boozad]

Also, Brian Bolland deserves as much credit as Alan Moore for TKJ being a great book.

 

(thumbs u

[fastballspecial]

I like the point about TKJ being more a "key". I just didnt like the book at the time. I think it was the art if I remember correctly. It is getting respect it deserves though. How many printings does that book have now? They cant seem to print it enough.

 

[itssmeeeeee]

I would say overall its not a "key" issue. Not everyone wants this issue. It only takes interest in specific fans such as Nightwing fanboys and oracle fanboys. Most people dont even know that BOP 8 was sought out book because a lot of fanboys in general dont care. So to answer the thread question Is BOP #8 a key? no. But it still has some interest but not enough to be considered a key.

 

And when talking about Killing Joke, it absolutely is a key. EVERYONE has read the story or at least heard about it. The only reason why theres no overpricing hysteria over it is because there literally is over 16 printings of it. The 1st print barely has any value anymore. But its story is well known and is a key storywise.

[kidcolt]

Comics are collectibles, realistically the fans who buy the books decide if it is a key book. BOP# 8 sells for great coin every time it is listed, it is a key book or at least a fan favorite. Sure there are other good comics with similar print runs that sell for less but obviously they don't have the same appeal as the BOP issue. BOP is one of those books that LCS only bring it as many as they have orders for, there are not a lot of these ordered to stock the shelves. Most of the people who collected it love the characters involved and won't part with them. Argue all you want but to the fans it is a key modern issue...minor key but still key.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The surrounding issue print run argument is specious since by that token, Hulk 179 is a whole lot rarer in high grade than 181.

 

Um.

 

No.

 

The comparison of Birds of Prey #8 to Hulk #181 is the specious argument.

 

In the Birds of Prey example, it is not only relevant, it's the only reason why #8 has maintained its value. If it had a print run in the 200s, it would have become just like 99% of all the other books that Wizard pimped...forgotten and ignored.

 

As far as "being worthy of being pimped", that's simply not quantifiable. It's not a first appearance, it is not an origin, it is not a "battle issue", it's not by a hot artist, and there are literally hundreds of other "date" issues concerning superheroes. None of the usual reasons why a superhero book is "worthy" of being pimped exist here.

 

And very, very, very few comics are "keys" solely because of the story, no matter how good...and BOP #8 is no Miracleman...

 

The contention that Hulk #179 is "a whole lot rarer in high grade than 181" is speculation. Hulk #179 is not worth submitting. There were approximately the same number of copies printed of both. #181 did not become a key for about 4-5 years after it was published.

 

It is likely that there are more high grade copies of #181 than 179, but it is not possible to know for sure.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

As above--key story involving _Batman_ characters. Is Killing Joke not key for the story as well?

 

No.

 

It is key because it is a Joker book written by Alan Moore, published at a time when Batman AND Alan Moore were at or near ludicrous heights of popularity.

 

Yes--the book might have found mainstream popularity because Wizard pimped it, but it was also 1) worthy of being pimped and 2) has proven not to be a "flash in the pan" due to its sustained value over years. It also does not take more than 8 years for a key to be determined as such. See ASM 300, Hulk 340, New Mutants 87, etc. Each of these were keys within a year and have remained as such.

 

Spidey #300 was a key because it was part of the run drawn by Todd McFarlane. It did not become a key in its own right until 1992-1993.

 

Hulk #340 is the same thing. There are similar Wolverine appearances from the era (Daredevil #248-249, for example) that do not compare because they were not drawn by Todd McFarlane.

 

As far as "proven not to be a flash in the pan", that's a circular argument. The sole reason it has sustained its value is because it is so very difficult to find...but so are hundreds of others books published in 1999. Had Wizard not pimped it, it would be just as popular as any other book from the era. But Wizard DID pimp it, and because of that AND its low print run, it managed to sustain its desirability...it's a "key" because people THINK it's a key, by tradition, not by any virtue the book may or may not have itself.

 

It's "Astonishing Tales #25" syndrome. At one point, Deathlok was very, very popular...now, the character is as cold as the upper chambers of the heart of Loki, but AT #25 still carries a premium. This is out of tradition, rather than merit.

[seanfingh]

It's "Astonishing Tales #25" syndrome. At one point, Deathlok was very, very popular...now, the character is as cold as the upper chambers of the heart of Loki, but AT #25 still carries a premium. This is out of tradition, rather than merit.

 

You, sir, are a thoughtless cad. Name your "syndrome" after a more appropriate book: Fear 20, for example. Leave AT #25 alone. Deathlok fricken rules.

[Zonker]

it's a "key" because people THINK it's a key, by tradition, not by any virtue the book may or may not have itself.

 

It's "Astonishing Tales #25" syndrome. At one point, Deathlok was very, very popular...now, the character is as cold as the upper chambers of the heart of Loki, but AT #25 still carries a premium. This is out of tradition, rather than merit.

 

So Key books are those that are virtuous and merit-based?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Aren't all superheroes supposed to be virtuous...?